IW - Some of your sitch sounds similar, some of it different. You have a bit more feedback from your W with some of the fights and even her telling you she's not sure about her feelings. It definitely sounds like a sitch where DB'ing is the right path, giving her space, etc.
My W has shut down completely - I think she is fearful of speaking 1:1 about serious matters, or just does not feel safe and secure with me anymore. My perspective is we could have addressed this months ago with MC but once that fear became entrenched... the whole engine just locked up. Giving her space is not really helping, since giving her space is part of what got us in this mess.
Originally Posted by IronWill
U - please try not to have expectations. What happens, happens. You can only worry about your own actions. W will do what W wants or feels she needs to do. That's limbo, true, but it's also everyday life. We choose to be with our partners every day. If shes still in the house with you she has not decided yet. That's a positive way to think about it.
I dont know if you believe in it or not, but I'm a firm believer in "what you think about you bring about." Try to stay positive, try to be grateful for what you have.
This may work or may not. But I will be ok either way and so will you.
IW - My last post sounded like I was expecting D. Perhaps I should have worded that as: "Of all available outcomes, I believe D is the most likely by far." I am also open to other outcomes.
I find my focus is shifting away from "marital status outcome", and more towards "ability to communicate and resolve conflict with W". The latter is going to be important regardless of M or D. And without improvement in that area, I doubt I would come out of MC wanting to stay in the M either.
Even "improved communication" is a dangerous expectation though. All I can say is... if we're going to go to MC, I want to learn as much as I can about listening, communicating, and resolving conflict. For myself. If that happens to help my R with my W, fantastic.
Limbo has been brutal. We've spent 3 months now where I know my W is considering D, but she has no clue (as far as I can tell) that I know. She might be frightened of my reaction. Both of us are in awful situations for our emotional and mental well-being. Are you familiar with the concept of allostatic load? The stress is taking its toll on my health. I can feel my heart palpitate, the blood rush to my head, the stomach churning with anxiety. I can tell it is taking its toll on my W. She is less patient with my kids. None of this is good for our kids. I'm improving with IC and DB, but it is not a healthy long-term situation.
I tend to focus on the negative in my posts, but I am truly feeling much more positive the last 24 hours. I had an R talk yesterday with my W and kept it short, stayed calm, and didn't pressure. She could not have expected me to be so calm. It does not match her expectation of me. I worked out tonight, reached out to a couple friends. I feel good. I am grateful the universe sent me this wake-up call. Bought a couple parenting books to read, so I can make sure I keep focus on my kids as well. Too easy to get sucked into focusing on my marriage at their expense.
Bought a couple parenting books to read, so I can make sure I keep focus on my kids as well. Too easy to get sucked into focusing on my marriage at their expense.
Been following your sitch - I read this and it resonated. I’m spending too much thinking about M , R and D. I need to detach and be there for my kids. I think my W may have emotionally abandoned them for whatever fantasy she is acting out and so I need to step up and take the slack.
IW - Some of your sitch sounds similar, some of it different. You have a bit more feedback from your W with some of the fights and even her telling you she's not sure about her feelings. It definitely sounds like a sitch where DB'ing is the right path, giving her space, etc.
U - yeah I noticed our situations were similar too. The shutting down was absolute torture. She is still almost completely silent. But since starting DB she has calmed down and I have calmed down. She has also started coming to talk to me when she wants. It is very seldom - once a week or once every 2 weeks.
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My W has shut down completely - I think she is fearful of speaking 1:1 about serious matters, or just does not feel safe and secure with me anymore. My perspective is we could have addressed this months ago with MC but once that fear became entrenched... the whole engine just locked up. Giving her space is not really helping, since giving her space is part of what got us in this mess.
Out of curiosity - what makes you think she isn't secure with you? Has she said anything to that effect? Are you both talking at all?
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IW - My last post sounded like I was expecting D. Perhaps I should have worded that as: "Of all available outcomes, I believe D is the most likely by far." I am also open to other outcomes.
I was here 6 months ago. I had to let go of all outcomes. I had to consider the MR as gone. The old MR is dead, has been for awhile. Right now I'm in the process of seeing if we can be friends.
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I'm improving with IC and DB, but it is not a healthy long-term situation.
My IC told me - when I first started going - that these situations are inherently unstable. They are periods of great upheaval, and cannot last. Which is also why they tell you to focus on yourself and your kids.
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I tend to focus on the negative in my posts, but I am truly feeling much more positive the last 24 hours. I had an R talk yesterday with my W and kept it short, stayed calm, and didn't pressure. She could not have expected me to be so calm. It does not match her expectation of me. I worked out tonight, reached out to a couple friends. I feel good. I am grateful the universe sent me this wake-up call. Bought a couple parenting books to read, so I can make sure I keep focus on my kids as well. Too easy to get sucked into focusing on my marriage at their expense.
Keep improving yourself U. The situation will be what it will be, but I see that you are progressing with yourself. Stay strong, man
Out of curiosity - what makes you think she isn't secure with you? Has she said anything to that effect? Are you both talking at all?
She has not told me this directly.
But I don't think she would tell me if she felt that way. She hasn't shared any feelings about our MR in months.
We do talk about some things. The kids, daily logistics, housework, sometimes our friends or my W's family (we are basically estranged from my family, and though we both agree on the estrangement being healthy for us, we disagree sometimes as to the Why). These conversations can be very friendly and sometimes include laughter. But there are off-limit topics. We don't talk about the M. We don't talk about the future, including things in the next few weeks. We don't talk about me.
I've noticed she's super moody. She can be pretty standoffish for 15 minutes, maybe snap at me a couple times, then turn and have 2 minutes of a pleasant conversation, then turn back to moody again. I'm way less reactive than I used to be, but given my issues and personality these are anxiety-provoking tests for me.
We had a couple nights in January where she unloaded a lot of complaints all at once. Some of them fair (not being more supportive of her career, helping more with the kids), some of them not (accused me of having an affair, accused me of being financially controlling). Then she stopped talking to me about issues. I thought she wanted space. I tried a couple times, and she bristled. In retrospect this was the time I should have pressed to understand better. Or maybe she was already headed down this path.
In March I realized she was considering an exit. Same story I keep telling here... I reacted poorly, pulled over the car, wrote over-the-top letters. After then, the couple times I asked to talk she wanted to do so only in front of IC/MC. It seems like that is still her position today.
We had the brief flare-up a couple weeks ago where she was upset about my distance. I'm still confused by this one. I don't use distance punitively. I do use distance as a learned behavior from dealing with my moody mom. When I sense my W is angry, sad, upset, I would approach her once, and if she bristled, I would leave her alone assuming she wanted space. She never told me whether she did or didn't like this she just clammed up.
I could have pressed more to talk. I do feel like I put myself out there a few times, and it was not 100% my responsibility to initiate talks. Maybe her mindset was that talking is pointless. I don't know. Her story will be different from mine. My story is that with more communication, more feedback, we could have worked through this.
It's really disappointing. I told W last night I was disappointed we didn't fire MC1 early and try someone else in the fall. We both agreed it was a failure. I will always look back at the last 6 months and wonder why W did not want to go back to MC sooner. Not talking for 6 months just etched in stone our bad patterns. Whatever stories we are each telling ourselves are not the truth, but w/o communication we have no way to correct course.
It's pretty clear to me she feels unsafe talking to me 1:1. I strongly believe that I cannot address her fears outside of having a 3rd party present. Having the brief R talk on Sunday, plus last night talking about which MC to go to, were good opportunities for me to stay calm. Minor victories. But... for my W to stop talking for months about serious issues, there must be some deep hurt there, maybe even a PTSD-style effect. I don't know. I'm not saying that I'm sitting here as some easy-going approachable guy. I did those things above, and more. I understand it. I know from her prior history she is sensitive to feeling controlled, that she has proactively built walls in prior R's to protect herself. I can't just say, "Hey I'm no longer that guy from 2 months ago!!" I did those things. And maybe she's hung up on stuff from years ago. I don't really know.
Some couples would have hashed things out with a few arguments and let out steam and moved on. For some reason we could not work through it. It's disappointing. I'm sure we all say that here. I truly believe it. If we get D'd, thanks to this forum and some great friends, I know now that I will be able to move on. I don't want it, at all, but I have no choice and I can look at this as an opportunity to reshape my life the way I want to. It's a new adventure. But I'm still disappointed we could not work things out.
She may also not be talking because she wants to hide her intentions. I don't think she is looking to file a DVRO and run away and operating out of fear that way. It's likely just fear of how I will react if I find out (which of course I already basically know) and making sure she feels safe and protected. Sometimes I feel she is treating me like a mental patient. It's hard not to feel like this is condescending. But I have some empathy for why she would feel that way and do these things. Shining a light on the reality ("Hey W I realize you are thinking about leaving") is not going to help my sitch.
Anyways, not to over-focus on my W, but she has not approached me for months to talk, all the while she's clearly struggling with our MR. She cannot possibly feel safe and secure talking to me.
Originally Posted by IronWill
My IC told me - when I first started going - that these situations are inherently unstable. They are periods of great upheaval, and cannot last. Which is also why they tell you to focus on yourself and your kids.
That is great insight. We are pain-avoiding, pleasure-seeking creatures. These situations are painful for all parties involved. And avoiding pain always takes priority over seeking pleasure. How does the WAS avoid pain? By walking away. How does the WAS seek pleasure? Sometimes with an EA/PA. How does the LBS avoid pain? By fighting to maintain the M. How does the LBS seek pleasure? The misguided LBS begs and pleads, the "enlightened LBS" DB's and works on themselves. These situations are not sustainable. It's obvious that the only way to maintain the M is for the WAS to see that option as less painful.
Out of curiosity - what makes you think she isn't secure with you? Has she said anything to that effect? Are you both talking at all?
She has not told me this directly.
But I don't think she would tell me if she felt that way. She hasn't shared any feelings about our MR in months.
We do talk about some things. The kids, daily logistics, housework, sometimes our friends or my W's family (we are basically estranged from my family, and though we both agree on the estrangement being healthy for us, we disagree sometimes as to the Why). These conversations can be very friendly and sometimes include laughter. But there are off-limit topics. We don't talk about the M. We don't talk about the future, including things in the next few weeks. We don't talk about me.
I've noticed she's super moody. She can be pretty standoffish for 15 minutes, maybe snap at me a couple times, then turn and have 2 minutes of a pleasant conversation, then turn back to moody again. I'm way less reactive than I used to be, but given my issues and personality these are anxiety-provoking tests for me.
Sounds a lot like my W back in December. Uncharacteristic for her and what really threw me out of whack. It was like living with her polar opposite.
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We had a couple nights in January where she unloaded a lot of complaints all at once. Some of them fair (not being more supportive of her career, helping more with the kids), some of them not (accused me of having an affair, accused me of being financially controlling). Then she stopped talking to me about issues. I thought she wanted space. I tried a couple times, and she bristled. In retrospect this was the time I should have pressed to understand better. Or maybe she was already headed down this path.
In my situation, this would not have changed anything. This was going to happen whether I pressed or not. I experimented with not pressing, then pressing. Same results. In hindsight i see now that it was completely out of my control.
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In March I realized she was considering an exit. Same story I keep telling here... I reacted poorly, pulled over the car, wrote over-the-top letters. After then, the couple times I asked to talk she wanted to do so only in front of IC/MC. It seems like that is still her position today.
My IC recommended i write a letter when there was no communication. I wrote 4, held onto them for a day, and ripped them all up when I realized while I had made mistakes in the R, and apologized for them, the litany of items W brought to my attention were not justifiable reasons for ending MR. At the time I thought they were. But given some distance from that conversation, I clearly see it was her own projections. Another thing she never did in the past.
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We had the brief flare-up a couple weeks ago where she was upset about my distance. I'm still confused by this one.
It's weird- most of the DB works, but each R is unique. I've had to go nearly NC for several weeks to get any kind of response. There have been 6 interactions in 4 weeks now since DB (all init by W). Previously in the 2 months prior to DB there was one - init by me.
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It's pretty clear to me she feels unsafe talking to me 1:1. I strongly believe that I cannot address her fears outside of having a 3rd party present. Having the brief R talk on Sunday, plus last night talking about which MC to go to, were good opportunities for me to stay calm. Minor victories. But... for my W to stop talking for months about serious issues, there must be some deep hurt there, maybe even a PTSD-style effect. I don't know. I'm not saying that I'm sitting here as some easy-going approachable guy. I did those things above, and more. I understand it. I know from her prior history she is sensitive to feeling controlled, that she has proactively built walls in prior R's to protect herself. I can't just say, "Hey I'm no longer that guy from 2 months ago!!" I did those things. And maybe she's hung up on stuff from years ago. I don't really know.
U - in all kindness, you have to learn to let that go. It happened, you cant change the past. I know - I did the same pressure tactics and pursuit when I didnt understand what was going on.
Think about WHY you did those things. You were panicked and stressed bc you felt your R slipping away with no explanation. Me too. I felt that way also. Those are not hangable offenses. Those were your valid feelings at that time.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't work on those things. But at the time, given the information (or lack thereof) that you had, those were the reactions you had at your disposal.
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Some couples would have hashed things out with a few arguments and let out steam and moved on. For some reason we could not work through it. It's disappointing.
Very. 100 percent agree.
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Anyways, not to over-focus on my W, but she has not approached me for months to talk, all the while she's clearly struggling with our MR. She cannot possibly feel safe and secure talking to me.
If theres one thing I know, it's that I have no clue what's going on in W's mind right now. It's an awful.spot to be in, but that's where I am. W keeps pulling away, and I am finally seeing just how far away she really is from the R. This is why I'm not pushing her to talk and I'm trying to buy time for her to really think about what she is doing. She hasnt really had any real life consequences yet. I have.
But she is beginning to feel ok occasionally communicating. And I mean very occasionally. A sentence or two here or there.
Interesting day so far. I stopped at the store to get some groceries. Details obfuscated intentionally.
W: “You got the wrong type of <X>. I don’t like that kind.” Me: “I didn’t get that kind, I got a different kind.” W: “I don’t like that one either, it goes bad quickly.” Me: “OK. What kind should I get next time?” W: “It’s fine. Forget it.” Me: “I also got you a 2nd different kind just in case.” W: “I SAID IT’S FINE IS THAT REASSURING ENOUGH FOR YOU!!!”
Here goes unchien’s brain, whirring up into the sky....!!!
We set up MC next week. Wife had IC today. She seems super stressed even by our new standards. I’m connecting the dots.
It is really bizarre that she jumped right to reassurance. It mean, I know it’s one of my issues. She must also know. She’s never mentioned it before. It didn’t even make sense in the context of our conversation where I was just trying to find out what type of <X> she liked so I could get that next time.
[Shoulder shrug]
Guilty as accused. I like being reassured in my relationships. When I felt a lack of reassurance with my W the last 2 years, my fear of abandonment was triggered and I did and said some regrettable things. She is not the reassuring type. We just never understood each other at that level I guess. Again... disappointing.
In the future, whether we recon or I’m in some future relationship, I will also like reassurance. I will not apologize for that. But I won’t let it overflow into fear of abandonment. That is the key.
Last night W disappeared to talk on the phone for 2 hours. Came back to watch Tv and asked me to join. I declined and went to GAL.
Had a dream about W coming back to me.
Woke up and just realized... she despises me. The way she interacts with me is how she interacts with people she hates. There is no recon. Ever. Even getting to a point where we can coparent amicably is going to be tough.
The rose colored glasses are off. This is over. Now it’s just waiting for her to tell me.
I know I need to suck it up and listen and validate. And not act like I’m giving up. That negativity is poison for my PMA.
I feel really stupid for having hoped we could work things out.
Woke up and just realized... she despises me. The way she interacts with me is how she interacts with people she hates. There is no recon. Ever. Even getting to a point where we can coparent amicably is going to be tough.
This happened to me too. She despised me so much that she filed for D when I pushed her to make a decision. The initial two weeks after D filing were hard for me and I begged, pleaded and reasoned with her. She listened and gave me the "its not you its me". I started 180s slowly and the divorce process was a big part of my GAL working with attorneys, worrying about the financial ruin, worrying about kids, worrying, worrying, worrying. I focused on work, exercised regularly and spent time with kids and it helped a lot. I decided that if she did not want to be with me I won't fight her or delay the D. It was hard letting go but was the best decision I made. Over the next few weeks her anger subsided and she stopped showing hatred. Then she started commenting on how much better I looked since we separated. Then she slowly started showing more respect.
Originally Posted by unchien
I feel really stupid for having hoped we could work things out.
The crazy thing is she filed because I broke all the DB rules. I did not even know about MLC till after the D filing, so I did not know better. But her filing for D is probably a good thing since it helped me get out of limbo. My D is final but all it does is make the separation legal. The M was dead for a long time before the D and if we ever get back, it will be a new relationship anyways. Remarrying is much easier than getting divorced but I have learned that the hope of getting back is the most dangerous thing. I feel much better now than I did in the one year after BD till D as crazy as it sounds. I am nowhere close to being whole but I am a lot better than I was a year ago. I am looking forward to being happy with my life going forward. I am still on an emotional roller coaster but I at least I am looking forward to living the rest of my life instead of living in limbo.
I am not advising you to break DB rules, definitely not saying that. What I am trying to say is that things happen, things get worse but in the long run sometimes they were meant to happen
Given my nature of keeping things bottled up I did not open up this much even in my own thread but I am doing so because I feel our situation is similar and I want to help. I want you to understand that this is a big change in your life and it is normal to feel like things are hopeless. It is normal to feel fear, uncertainty, regret, depression. I certainly did and I still do. But I am getting better with time and one day you will look back and see how far along you have come. Stay strong!
Officially she hasn't BD'ed me yet, so I guess there's that. It's really good to hear that things thawed in your sitch... I do hope once my W does BD me, things may become a little less stressful. I worry about our communication alot, because it will be hard to coparent effectively if we barely talk as it is now. We will have to talk even more to coordinate parenting. (Assuming we end up with roughly 50/50 in the long term custody-wise).
I've been considering kind of a crazy idea lately - proposing that we move back to where we lived before. Not as a means to save our M. If I could transfer my existing job role (which is a distinct possibility not confirmed):
Cost of living
This one is huge. Assume 50/50 asset/income split. If we stay, we have to sell our house. We both have to rent dumpy places and will still be over-spending. Not a good sitch for my kids. If we move, I could afford a place in a nice neighborhood with good schools and room for my kids. With enough room that I am not over-stretching my budget.
Better quality of life
Better weather. Better lifestyle. Better fit for my hobbies.
Ability to move
If we stay where we are and D, with custody laws, we are basically locked into not moving for the next 15 years. Also my W has not started work yet, and she could easily restart back where we used to live. Moving sooner is better, if we both want to do it.
Kids' happiness
Happier dad. Happier mom (I'm pretty sure). Closer to family (my W's, but I recognize those relationships are important for my kids). Win-win for the kids' happiness.
There's some downsides. Moving would be expensive, and drawn-out, and long-term my career might suffer. Today it's easy to say that money is not important to me, I might feel differently in 5 years. Other than that, I'm not sure what downside there is. Again it probably only works if I can maintain my existing job. I might have to commute to the office here a few days a month or so. I'm not sure. But if I'm going to be single dad, I think it will be easier on me in our old city.
And if by some magic we reconcile (EXTREMELY UNLIKELY), this is better too! Part of the reason we moved is that W wanted to live in more expensive places, and the job I had could not support it. Now I have a much higher-paying job, and my employer has opened an office in our old city. It seems doable. I could likely even save some money along the way. Not really why I'm thinking about this moving thing, but my attraction to the idea it is M-outcome-independent.
I'm not just going to blurt it out to W yet. It requires careful consideration, as I have no idea exactly where my W stands today with regards to our MR. Pretty sure I'd need/want some legal counsel if we are going to attempt this. But it's an idea..
I'm also a little hesitant that this is some weird replay thing where I may be reliving the past. Maybe part of moving on from my W would be rebuilding my life in this new city, rather than revisiting the past.
But honestly... I do like it better where we used to live...
W: “I SAID IT’S FINE IS THAT REASSURING ENOUGH FOR YOU!!!”
Here goes unchien’s brain, whirring up into the sky....!!
Kindly 2x4 time here, U. It's not about what you bought or didnt buy. She's telling you what she needs right now. Forget her tone - hear the words. She doesnt have the willpower to reassure you.
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It is really bizarre that she jumped right to reassurance. It mean, I know it’s one of my issues.
This is a potential 180 for you. She's being very direct.
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In the future, whether we recon or I’m in some future relationship, I will also like reassurance. I will not apologize for that. But I won’t let it overflow into fear of abandonment. That is the key.
This is something I thought I needed too. It is also part of what caused my MR to fail and it will cause any future Rs (including potentially reconciling with W) to fail. I am correcting it.
Again - cant tell you what to do, but our Ws seem somewhat in the same place on this. Good place to start.
