Kindly 2x4 time here, U. It's not about what you bought or didnt buy. She's telling you what she needs right now. Forget her tone - hear the words. She doesnt have the willpower to reassure you.
This is a potential 180 for you. She's being very direct.
IW - I definitely know that her reassurance comment had nothing to do with the conversation at hand. Keep in mind we just booked MC for next week - this is probably BD time. I'm sure she is thinking about my contributions to our MR eroding. And I agree 100% that my need for reassurance eroded our MR.
It's a classic "anxious-preoccupied vs. avoidant" relationship issue which probably matches a vast majority of people on this forum.
The strange thing is that I was not seeking reassurance in the moment. I haven't been directly seeking reassurance (e.g. I don't say ILY anymore, I don't seek out her company, etc.). HOWEVER, I know I am absolutely guilty of indirectly seeking reassurance. Little temp checks.
Originally Posted by IronWill
This is something I thought I needed too. It is also part of what caused my MR to fail and it will cause any future Rs (including potentially reconciling with W) to fail. I am correcting it.
Again - cant tell you what to do, but our Ws seem somewhat in the same place on this. Good place to start.
OK so I have to disagree slightly.
On the one hand, absolutely, my excessive need for reassurance has damaged my MR. In that sense, trying to overcorrect all the way to the other end of the spectrum (requiring no reassurance) is a healthy goal.
On the other hand, a truly balanced, healthy individual would still like SOME amount of reassurance in any R.
But I think your point, which I agree with, is men like us need to essentially aim to drop reassurance as a goal, and in doing so we would probably hit that nice center point.
This reminds me of the advice to passive Beta's to start acting more selfishly. To a normal person, this could turn them into a raging narcissist. To a Beta, it's a correction back to more healthy behavior.
As we approach MC next week, I find myself worrying more about how to improve my individual life than my MR. I think about what life will look like 2 years from now, and how I am starting to build confidence that I can do this. I look forward to having time alone with my kids, my own free time, and hobbies, and complete ownership of my life. Then I wonder if I'm being selfish, or retreating into some "healing fantasy" where my life will magically be better, when in reality it is going to be an absolute bitch adjusting. I worry that this is a strategy to avoid the pain that I need to face if I'm going to become a happier, healthier U. I worry that I'm denying how hard being a single dad is going to be.
Set aside whether or not W opts for D. Climbing this recon mountain seems impossible. I will DB as best as I can, but also we are fighting:
1. Healing/repairing past hurts 2. FT/SAHM dynamic w/3 small kids 3. Lack of communication -> lack of trust in each other 4. Possible MLC issues?
I am conflicted about how to handle MC. In a 1:1 conversation with my W, it would make sense to DB: listen, validate, etc. However with a 3rd party, I think that would leave the counselor with a complete lack of information about what is happening from my perspective.
What is the general advice here about approaching first MC session?
I'm not trying to win my W back in MC. I am approaching MC as a way to better myself, to understand what has caused our M to go awry in more detail, and learn. I want to improve communication with my W because we need that, D'd or M'd, for the sake of our kids. But also... I think it's time to air out our issues. If not now, when? If I don't share, how can I expect my W to share? If we have an issue of conflict avoidance, why not go for it and start addressing the conflict? Isn't that one of the most 180 things to do?
Forget about protecting myself emotionally. This is already hell.
For the first session I would let her do 80-90 percent of the talking and listen and validate. She will eventually need to reveal her attentions. In the beginning keep your cards close to your chest.
Yeah, I think I will at least say I feel like we've been in limbo and not communicating for a very long time. I don't know, need to think about it. I have several days. It helps that I don't think it's going to matter much what I do or say, my W will be driving the agenda.
I might have accelerated S or D by kickstarting MC, but I still feel okay with this. I don't think prolonged DB in my sitch (FT/SAHM split, lack of communication, etc.) was going to make a major turn in our MR. And I don't think my kids deserve this long-term stalemate where both mom and dad are unhappy and not being the best parents we can be.
Random story: I wore a new shirt today that I bought a few weeks ago. I almost never buy my own clothes. Probably once in the last 5 years. W noticed, and said, "Nice shirt!" I said "Thanks" and left. Funny... when I bought the shirt, I thought "here's a DB thing I can do, treat myself, show my W I'm capable of taking care of myself, I can't wait until she sees me wearing this shirt, I look stylish." Today I thought, "Meh". Just didn't care. I'm wearing it because I'm going out with some friends for dinner later, not to peacock in front of W.
There is no recon. Ever. Even getting to a point where we can coparent amicably is going to be tough.
The rose colored glasses are off. This is over. Now it’s just waiting for her to tell me.
I know I need to suck it up and listen and validate. And not act like I’m giving up. That negativity is poison for my PMA.
I feel really stupid for having hoped we could work things out.
8 hours later...
Originally Posted by unchien
I've been considering kind of a crazy idea lately - proposing that we move back to where we lived before.
UC, stop! Breathe! Quit bouncing around all over the place, you are driving me crazy and if you're driving me crazy your W has got to be about to lose her mind! Just caaaaaaaaalm down. This is a marathon, meaning a very, very long race in which you need to pace yourself.
You are clearly a very analytical person. I think you've posted more lists than anyone I've ever seen on here. That has it's place, I bet you are very good at your job. But in DB'ing it's really going to work against you. You want to break every little thing down and examine it from all angles, dissect it, put it back together, run tests on it. Your W however is playing by a completely set of rules. Her "rules" are no rules. She's operating purely on feelings and emotion. What you're doing is like trying to dissect a car motor in the hopes of learning how the human brain works. Do you follow what I'm saying? you're trying to apply your analytical skills to something that is more spiritual than scientific. And believe me, I get it! I did the same. I did not start to detach and find peace until I accepted that I was never going to figure it out and I needed to quit trying though.
So that's my challenge to you. Take a month and put your mind in neutral. Quit trying to figure out if she's done, if there's hope, if you should stay, if you should move, what you should say to her, what it means when she says stuff to you, what about etc. etc. etc. Stop thinking and overthinking and just zen out for a while. No pressure on her and none on you. Do that for a month and see what happens to her AND to you. I think it will help. This isn't a sprint, you have the gift of time. Put it to use, it's your greatest tool.
UC, stop! Breathe! Quit bouncing around all over the place, you are driving me crazy and if you're driving me crazy your W has got to be about to lose her mind! Just caaaaaaaaalm down. This is a marathon, meaning a very, very long race in which you need to pace yourself.
AS - Guilty as charged. I know. I need to Zen out. I will make my response more simple.
The move idea is about molding a better life for me as a single D'd dad with 3 kids. I have zero hopes of reconciliation through the MC process.
That being said, proposing this idea to my W right now is not my plan. I have a plan, but need to be patient.
UC, stop! Breathe! Quit bouncing around all over the place, you are driving me crazy and if you're driving me crazy your W has got to be about to lose her mind! Just caaaaaaaaalm down. This is a marathon, meaning a very, very long race in which you need to pace yourself.
Very much agree with AS. U - the first thing I did when I was in this situation was to learn how to calm down. It took me 3 months to learn how to do that.
Let the MR go. She hasnt left yet. She hasnt even BD yet.
You have time. Use it - try meditating. It helped me greatly. And yes I was one of those who never thought meditating would work.
It does.
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Take a month and put your mind in neutral. Quit trying to figure out if she's done, if there's hope, if you should stay, if you should move, what you should say to her, what it means when she says stuff to you, what about etc. etc. etc. Stop thinking and overthinking and just zen out for a while. No pressure on her and none on you. Do that for a month and see what happens to her AND to you. I think it will help. This isn't a sprint, you have the gift of time. Put it to use, it's your greatest tool.
Very wise words. Trust AS. I did this. It does help enormously.
MC sent some forms to fill out ahead of next week's appointment. Names, kids, then WHAM 3 pages of questions about S and D. Do you a L? Have you filed? How much income do you make? Have you heard of collaborative D?
Not really any good choices here. Push for different MC? Unlikely to change the outcome. Turn down MC altogether? Then we are back to not communicating at all and things worsening by the month.
To AS, IW, LH19 - My hope for recon is fully extinguished. The only mystery now is how this will all unfold.
I think you need to fill out the paperwork and go in and face the music. Trust me nothing is worse then limbo. When my W filed it was almost a sense of relief. Once you get in there and find her true intentions then make a decision on whether you want to continue or not. Learning to communicate for coparenting is not a bad thing.
Not really any good choices here. Push for different MC? Unlikely to change the outcome. Turn down MC altogether?
I would cancel the appointment. Tell your W that you are interested in marriage counseling ONLY if the intent is to work on the M. This counselor is clearly just a traditional "divorce facilitator" so what is the point in continuing to go?
Originally Posted by unchien
Then we are back to not communicating at all and things worsening by the month.
How could it be worse? She pushes for S or D? Is that not EXACTLY what's going to happen in MC? I can answer that for you- YES. There is a REASON the MC sent those forms, because it is going to be the main topic of conversation in the next meeting. Don't worry about being back to "not communicating", even though you haven't officially been BD'd you are clearly dealing with a WAS and the BEST thing to do is... time and space. So not communicating is fine. Pull back and remove all pressure.
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To AS, IW, LH19 - My hope for recon is fully extinguished. The only mystery now is how this will all unfold.
Do you remember what I just told you yesterday? And what was your reply? "AS - Guilty as charged. I know. I need to Zen out." Don't SAY it, DO it. Your hope is NOT fully extinguished, that's just pessimistic "stinking thinking". But I will tell you this, if you can't pull back and give her time and space and remove all this crazy pressure then you ARE doomed. You've got to change paths and do it now. And before you say "oh but I'm not applying pressure" YES YOU ARE. I can feel the pressure from here, all you have to do is be in the same room as her and she will feel it too. Try some DB'ing for a while, you will be happy you did.
