AS You said: Exactly. It will change with time. She won't always be like this. But for now, it's how she is and it's what you have to find a way to accept and deal with. My question is will it? There are people on here who are divorced. Did the w ever really change? Did yours? Just a question sorry if it sounds like I am coming off harsh.
Not harsh at all, it's a very reasonable question! Yes she did change, it took years but she did. I've talked about it in various threads, but I'll try to summarize. Her state of mind after BD was she couldn't stand to be around me. I intercepted some of her messages saying so to her friends (before I found DBing). I remember one in particular in which she told a friend her "worst nightmare" (exact quote) was thinking about her becoming ill with cancer or something and having to be taken care of my me. WORST NIGHTMARE. Talk about a cold slap in the face! After S and D she avoided me like the plague. Sometimes she would ask if I could look at something at her house, but then manage to not be there if she knew I was coming over. Anyway slowly over time she quit avoiding me, and then started inviting me over or inviting me to go along to dinner with the kids and such. I was just telling a friend (who is also on here) a couple of days ago but I was over at her house helping with her sprinklers. I went inside just as a couple of her neighbors walked up to her in the front. Then I came out and was looking at the controller in the garage, she didn't know I came back out. I heard them ask her if I was her husband and she said "well ex, but he's a really great guy and I'm lucky to have him around!" I've also heard her tell people what a great dad I am, how smart I am, etc. etc. but usually when she knows I'm in earshot. This was unusual because she didn't know I could hear. I also told my friend that her attitude towards me has changed so much that I suspect she might have approached me about recon if not for the fact that she knows I'm pretty serious with my GF. It's hard to describe here but just her whole attitude about me and how she acts around me is so vastly different than after BD. She acts much more like the person she was before BD. Last Thanksgiving she actually invited me to her mom's place, I mean WOW that still blows my mind.
And that's just one example but I know a lot of people who have been through S and D and almost universally they say the same thing happened with time, that their ex eventually warmed up to them again and a lot of them even did try to recon. But a lot of LBS's, after they've been through this and recovered they are really quite done with that person and in the end it's often the LBS that doesn't want to recon. It's hard for anyone that's only a few months past BD to imagine they will ever get there, but they almost always do.
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When I am around her I am happy, loving towards my kids. I am bringing back the old me. W will even say once and in a while what are you so happy about? I just respond I can’t be happy? I avoid being in the same room with her, I use to follow her. One thing I read about be Mr. Nice guy is letting them make decisions. Now I make them with her either saying yes or no and giving me an alternative. Then we compromise. In the past I would say whatever you want. So I speak on here may seem desperate but that is me just dumping emotions.
That all sounds great! Yeah it's hard to tell someone's real state of mind based on just what they post here because a lot of the time they're coming here specifically to talk about things they can't say anywhere else.
1. My w has this sense of entitlement. When she comes home she expects everyone to run to her and greet her at the door and if we don’t (I don’t do that anymore because of our sit) we don’t love her and she gets mad. Yesterday when she came home my son was playing video games and he didn’t run to the door to greet her. She said hey you don’t come and say hello to me. This was to my s. He said hi mom. She said no you don’t come over to me and give me a kiss? He said one second just let me pause this game. She got mad and said I can’t belive the video games are more important than your mom. She then said when you love someone you greet them when they come in. She then asked him what’s wrong with him, why are you not doing it anymore? This is one of the reasons I am getting a d. Because she feels I didn’t love her when she came I. The house. Did your w’s behave this way? Yet when any of us would walk in the door we had to go say hi to her. So warped. This has been for years with her.
When we were all under the same roof the first thing I did when I got home was check on everyone, say hello, hug and kiss, ask how their day went. First W and then the kids. I didn't expect them to come running to the door to see me. Definitely sounds a little selfish on your W's part. BUT.... you know the routine- listen and validate. "It sounds like you are frustrated that S doesn't greet you when you get home, I am sorry you're feeling frustrated."
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2. This is for anyone but I think more for Steve or Sandi. How does the LBS know she the ww is changing their mind or want to reconcile? Only reason I ask my w hasn’t brought up the d in a while. No expectations just curious.
She'll tell you!! If she hasn't told you then she hasn't changed her mind. Not bringing up D just means she no longer feels pressure which is a good thing. But it definitely does not mean she's ready to recon.
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That every time I change a little I go back to my old ways. What I did to her she just can’t get over it so easily and it takes time. She is referring to when I got into an argument with my w I walked out and went for a car ride. She is quoting exactly what my w says to me why she is d me.
Listening and validating isn't just for your W, practice it with D too. "I hear you saying you feel like I change but then slip back into old habits. That must be frustrating for you, is that how you feel?" "Yes, like you'll never really change." "I'm sorry I make you feel frustrated, thank you for sharing this with me, I will work on this." The important part is the VALIDATION ITSELF is a big 180, so just validating by itself is going to make her feel like you've made a step in the right direction.
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Here’s the real relevant part, I told my w what she is saying
WHY??????? Don't do this! It WILL get back to your D from your W and then she will feel like you're ganging up on her!
2. This is for anyone but I think more for Steve or Sandi. How does the LBS know she the ww is changing their mind or want to reconcile? Only reason I ask my w hasn’t brought up the d in a while. No expectations just curious.
She'll tell you!! If she hasn't told you then she hasn't changed her mind. Not bringing up D just means she no longer feels pressure which is a good thing. But it definitely does not mean she's ready to recon.
I fell into this trap. W showed lot of recon signs and started warming up to me and I started hoping for recon. I even started posting here asking if she was planning to recon. The vets said no and they were right. She said all the "right" things, acted the "right" way half of the time and but took no steps to stop the D.
She started playing family and started joining when I took kids out for dinner over the past 3 weeks but she took them out for dinner she did not care to invite me. And the way she told me was asking if I could help with something because she could not do it because she was taking the kids out for dinner. Not sure if she was temp testing or just her being selfish
I am happy that she went to the mortgage company about refinancing, this way she can buy me out and I can get my own house.
You posted this two days ago and then you post the following:
Originally Posted by Wolfman
This is for anyone but I think more for Steve or Sandi. How does the LBS know she the ww is changing their mind or want to reconcile? Only reason I ask my w hasn’t brought up the d in a while. No expectations just curious.
You really have to understand that this is really going to take a longtime to turn around. Look at actions Wolf.
2. This is for anyone but I think more for Steve or Sandi. How does the LBS know she the ww is changing their mind or want to reconcile? Only reason I ask my w hasn’t brought up the d in a while. No expectations just curious.
Well, I have to use more words than the guys, so bear with me.
For me to give a short answer, I would say that her not saying anymore about a D......isn't what the LBH needs to watch as a sign his WW is changing her mind. However, if she's been saying it often as a threat, then just be grateful she's stopped. Attitude, voice, & actions are the signs that show a WW wants to reconcile.
Understand that the issues with the WW is her hardened heart toward her H. It is filled with resentment and disrespect, just to mention a couple, and it advances to rebellion. So, my first question would be....has her heart changed? B/c if her hard, cold, selfish heart has softened for her H......then her attitude, behavior, and words/voice will reflect it. IMHO, when a WW truly changes, there should be at least some hint of remorse, humility, gentleness, ........some sign of wanting to make amends. When there has been a significant change of heart, I just think she will want her MR to heal. The biggest problem the WW has about being really honest & open with her H is her stubborn pride. That's why humility is an important part of heart change. And if she already had a sense of entitlement, then she needs a heavy dose of humility. It's hard for a WW to have a humble heart, but very necessary. She might not get there overnight, and it may take MC for her to sort some things out......but I'm getting away from the subject a little bit.
If the WW has not had a true change of heart, then she is going to look out for number one (herself) to see how or where she benefits the most......at least, in her opinion. Now I'm not saying she will make the best decision for herself, but for whatever reason.....she feels she benefits emotionally or financially. Usually, the WW has some agenda (fantasy) that includes her leaving the M. If something develops to put a significant dent in the agenda/fantasy......then she will likely hold off on proceeding with the D until she figures out her next step. For instance, if she was in an affair, and OM decided not to leave his W and family for her......then she might stop talking to her H about a D. Her feelings have not changed, she just doesn't mention divorce to her H. It's as if she's in a holding pattern. That doesn't mean things necessarily get better between her and the H. It usually means they are living in limbo, b/c she isn't doing the leg work toward getting the D......but she's not trying to mend fences with her H, either.
In some cases, the couple has physically separated. The WW hasn't had a change of heart, but she decides she had it better while living with the LBH. So, she does what I call, "slitter under the door". She uses a few tricks to make the H think she wants to stay M, but it's just enough to get her secured back in the M. Depending on the woman as to the tricks she uses. She may squeeze out a few tears to play on H's heart strings, or she may use her sexual persuasion. Some WW's just tell the LBH that she's coming back, and that's that. She's always called the shots, and that's just another one. No apology, no R talk, no explanation, no nothing. It usually means no sex, maybe sleeping in separate bedrooms, an they just continue as roommates.
If the WW is still under the same roof with the LBH, and he cannot see any improvement in her attitude toward him, or the way she speaks to him (and about him), or in her general behavior/actions with him........but she just stopped mentioning a divorce......then I'd tell him not to get too excited. He doesn't want (or shouldn't want) to live with a wayward woman who shows no respect/love for him and is basically using him for however she benefits from being in that situation. Do I see it as a positive thing that the WW goes for a period of time without mentioning she wants a D? No, not if there are no positive reflections of a heart change in her. Playing family doesn't count. Eating together or watching TV together doesn't count. Loosing her sense of entitlement, is a good start. Showing respect for her H as the father of her children, and as the head of the family.....is a good start. Speaking respectfully, softly, gently, is a good start. Not yelling, mocking, or showing sarcasm toward her H, is a good start. Not throwing a fit, not ordering the H to serve her, expecting special treatment, giving demands, etc.......is a good start. I could go on & on, but to sum it up I'd say that a man should have some idea of how a woman would treat him with respect.
IMHO, in-house separation is the worst situation for the LBH, b/c the WW benefits from both worlds without carrying the responsibility for either one.
So, will she tell you she has changed her mind about a D? If she does, you had better look to see what follows those words. What are her attitudes, actions, & voice, saying?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
2. This is for anyone but I think more for Steve or Sandi. How does the LBS know she the ww is changing their mind or want to reconcile? Only reason I ask my w hasn’t brought up the d in a while. No expectations just curious.
Well, I have to use more words than the guys, so bear with me.
For me to give a short answer, I would say that her not saying anymore about a D......isn't what the LBH needs to watch as a sign his WW is changing her mind. However, if she's been saying it often as a threat, then just be grateful she's stopped. Attitude, voice, & actions are the signs that show a WW wants to reconcile.
Understand that the issues with the WW is her hardened heart toward her H. It is filled with resentment and disrespect, just to mention a couple, and it advances to rebellion. So, my first question would be....has her heart changed? B/c if her hard, cold, selfish heart has softened for her H......then her attitude, behavior, and words/voice will reflect it. IMHO, when a WW truly changes, there should be at least some hint of remorse, humility, gentleness, ........some sign of wanting to make amends. When there has been a significant change of heart, I just think she will want her MR to heal. The biggest problem the WW has about being really honest & open with her H is her stubborn pride. That's why humility is an important part of heart change. And if she already had a sense of entitlement, then she needs a heavy dose of humility. It's hard for a WW to have a humble heart, but very necessary. She might not get there overnight, and it may take MC for her to sort some things out......but I'm getting away from the subject a little bit.
If the WW has not had a true change of heart, then she is going to look out for number one (herself) to see how or where she benefits the most......at least, in her opinion. Now I'm not saying she will make the best decision for herself, but for whatever reason.....she feels she benefits emotionally or financially. Usually, the WW has some agenda (fantasy) that includes her leaving the M. If something develops to put a significant dent in the agenda/fantasy......then she will likely hold off on proceeding with the D until she figures out her next step. For instance, if she was in an affair, and OM decided not to leave his W and family for her......then she might stop talking to her H about a D. Her feelings have not changed, she just doesn't mention divorce to her H. It's as if she's in a holding pattern. That doesn't mean things necessarily get better between her and the H. It usually means they are living in limbo, b/c she isn't doing the leg work toward getting the D......but she's not trying to mend fences with her H, either.
In some cases, the couple has physically separated. The WW hasn't had a change of heart, but she decides she had it better while living with the LBH. So, she does what I call, "slitter under the door". She uses a few tricks to make the H think she wants to stay M, but it's just enough to get her secured back in the M. Depending on the woman as to the tricks she uses. She may squeeze out a few tears to play on H's heart strings, or she may use her sexual persuasion. Some WW's just tell the LBH that she's coming back, and that's that. She's always called the shots, and that's just another one. No apology, no R talk, no explanation, no nothing. It usually means no sex, maybe sleeping in separate bedrooms, an they just continue as roommates.
If the WW is still under the same roof with the LBH, and he cannot see any improvement in her attitude toward him, or the way she speaks to him (and about him), or in her general behavior/actions with him........but she just stopped mentioning a divorce......then I'd tell him not to get too excited. He doesn't want (or shouldn't want) to live with a wayward woman who shows no respect/love for him and is basically using him for however she benefits from being in that situation. Do I see it as a positive thing that the WW goes for a period of time without mentioning she wants a D? No, not if there are no positive reflections of a heart change in her. Playing family doesn't count. Eating together or watching TV together doesn't count. Loosing her sense of entitlement, is a good start. Showing respect for her H as the father of her children, and as the head of the family.....is a good start. Speaking respectfully, softly, gently, is a good start. Not yelling, mocking, or showing sarcasm toward her H, is a good start. Not throwing a fit, not ordering the H to serve her, expecting special treatment, giving demands, etc.......is a good start. I could go on & on, but to sum it up I'd say that a man should have some idea of how a woman would treat him with respect.
IMHO, in-house separation is the worst situation for the LBH, b/c the WW benefits from both worlds without carrying the responsibility for either one.
So, will she tell you she has changed her mind about a D? If she does, you had better look to see what follows those words. What are her attitudes, actions, & voice, saying?
Sandi,
If you see a big change in W's attitude, should I continue to DB and detach or initiate R talks again? W showed signs of wanting to stop D and her attitude has changed a lot but eventually D happened. The process was fast and only a few months so not much time for attitude change to turn into action of stopping D.
Now she needs to move because of D terms but I see clear signs of change that you mentioned above in actions and words. Confused here
Wow there is so much good information here I do t know where to start. I would like to thank everyone for posting here I have read through them about 4-5 times. I am really trying to take this all in. So much of what everyone said makes so much sense, it’s scary!! AS as always I appreciate the comments. It’s so hard to believe that your w went from one extremist to almost the other. It’s so sad that it took that long for her to realize what a great person you are. I will just keep validating and keeping my cool. Validating all the time just makes me feel like they can abuse me. My w and d. I understand what you are saying so I will continue doing it.
MLC I feel your pain. I am afraid she will suck me in and then spit me out. I will make sure I am cautious if she ever gets there. Which it seems I still have a long way to go. Patience, patience patience. That’s what I keep reminding myself.
LH I know I said she went to find out about refinancing. I felt like that was just something she said to see my reaction. She very well could have gone just not sure if she started the process. LH honestly I get confused because lately we have been getting along very well, talking not arguments or her blaming me for things. And no talk of d. Knock on wood. I know she doesn’t want to reconcile but it just makes me wonder, why no talk of d? We get along so well why continue down this path. Rhetorical question. Yes I am still not detached, I know. I hope one day I will get there. Because this heart ache [censored]!!
Sandi. As usual everything there was golden. I mean what you spoke about was my w. “Understand that the issues with the WW is her hardened heart toward her H. It is filled with resentment and disrespect, just to mention a couple, and it advances to rebellion. So, my first question would be....has her heart changed? B/c if her hard, cold, selfish heart has softened for her H.” Her heart is filled with all of those things that you mentioned especially her pride. It’s like you met my w and knew by what you wrote. I read so many of your links numerous times, I hope that by following your advice it helps us reconcile. If it doesn’t, the next person I am serious with is going to have the worlds best boyfriend/husband. I have learned so much, I just wish I would have found this site sooner. I still have so much work to do for me. I will keep DB. It’s just very painful especially because now I know what to do and want my family back and feel like if she would just open her heart she would see, but I know she is not there. We just have so many positive interactions now I feel like we are so close. I k ow in her mind we are still so far!! I have to work on myself so she won’t be resentful, angry, selfish and cold. I know it’s a process I just never expected to be this long of a process. I know everyone says it’s a marathon I thought I was running 26 miles not 100 miles. I post more later about our day yesterday. My kids had dance recital all day yesterday and it turned out to be a great day. Talk more later. Again, thank you all for posting on here you have no idea how much it helps!!!!!
M:42 XW:41 T:19 M: 15 D:13 S:10 BD: 8/10/18 Moved out: 8/18 Moved in: 9/18/18 Moved out: 4/22/19 D papers signed 11/4/19 D final 3/18/20
Wolfman, like you my wife and I get along really well. In fact, we have never really fought during this whole process. We never fought before the BD, and we haven't fought since. We hang out all the time, and we seem to be really good friends. But, she still doesn't have romantic feelings for me. I don't know how to rekindle these, but I know that I need to give her space. My pursuit drives her further away from me every time.
My kids had a dance recital on Saturday. It turned out to be a nice day. My w and I got along real well. My kids performed great. In between the 2 shows we all went out for lunch. My w’s parents were there and I spoke with them a lot, all about dance. I know the answer to this but I just want to say it. Seeing how well we got along I feel like we could be a happy family again. How well I get along with her parents, how we all just got along and had a great day. It’s like why can’t we build on that? I know the answer, she is not there. It was funny and uncomfortable at 2 different times with 2 different fathers they asked what “we” were doing the rest of the weekend? I did t want to get into the whole d thing so I just said I had some things to do. People see us as still a happy couple. Again, I know she isn’t there and is probably playing nice for the kids. As well as everyone else around.
M:42 XW:41 T:19 M: 15 D:13 S:10 BD: 8/10/18 Moved out: 8/18 Moved in: 9/18/18 Moved out: 4/22/19 D papers signed 11/4/19 D final 3/18/20
People see us as still a happy couple. Again, I know she isn’t there and is probably playing nice for the kids. As well as everyone else around.
This is very similar to my situation. W acted as if we are still married except for the intimacy part. But she made no effort to stop the D and her actions spoke louder than words. My thread on the forum was titled "Acceptance and Reconnection" because I was certain she wanted to R given her behavior. Even today she wants to play family but wont talk about R. I have stopped initiating R talks from my end so it has to be her at this point.
I am slowly learning to let go of that hope for my own sanity if nothing else. Sorry, I know that is not what you want to hear now. I hope your situation works out differently than mine but watch out for false hope
