Hi everyone. While I can't say I'm happy to be here given the circumstances, glad to see there's such an active and empathetic forum for people to give and receive advice. Thanks in advance.
For background: I'm 37M, she's 31F. Together for a little over seven years, married for a little over two. We met through mutual friends; we went to the same university and generally, my younger friends were her old friends. We hit it off quickly and I thought for sure I had found the one. We met and live in NYC.
We're both the children of difficult upbringings. I was adopted into a very loveless marriage, full of fighting and obvious tension. My mom was an alcoholic, my dad completely unable to express an emotion other than anger - on top of that, they were both grieving the loss of their then 18-year-old son to a car accident a few years before I was adopted. They fought all the time, didn't sleep in the same bed, and basically appeared to despise each other, clearly only staying "together" for the sake of my brother and I. Long story short, I learned very quickly to be independent and only rely on myself, to hide from tension and anger and compartmentalize it, and to be a people pleaser in order to not exacerbate things. These are all things I work on with my personal therapist.
My wife is an only child, with a father that was there physically but at all emotionally, up to the point of literally telling her that he never wanted children. Her mom is a nice person, but very prim and proper, super judgmental. The various difficulties of that upbringing, I'm sure she works on with her therapist.
Anyway, as I said, my wife and I met, we hit it off and fell in love quickly. We had so much in common; both ambitious in our professional lives, in harmony on politics and religion and other key aspects of compatibility, with a large dose of physical attraction built in. It wasn't without ups and downs, but I was so excited and hopeful for the future when we got married.
Fast forward to today, a little over two years later, and we're separating. Her choice, terming it a "trial separation". It's hurting very badly, but I've read just about every article on here and elsewhere on the topic, and I'm taking the approach that my best move is to grant her the space that she needs, work on myself, not to overstep boundaries, and be patient. But it's hard, coming home and realizing that she's packed up her books into boxes, seeing her not wearing her wedding ring, things like that.
As for why, there's a few paper cuts but nothing huge: no affairs that I know of, no abuse. We are in different places in our professional lives: I've risen to the C-suite of my company, and she chose to remove herself from the working world in order to follow her lifelong passions of art and community organization. This created a difficult power imbalance, which was compounded by lack of seeing eye-to-eye on finances; she would ask for more safety in terms of saving, and for lifestyle changes in order to feel more comfortable. I was reticent and stubborn to change my behavior - damn my independence - which made her feel not heard, and not in a true partnership. There have also been instances of trust violations: no affairs, but little lies about stupid things that built up a wall.
On her side, I think the dropping out of the working world is a bit of a function of a mid-life crisis, not knowing what she wants out of life, not feeling fulfilled by her current direction. She's thrown herself headlong into her volunteer and political work, causing us to spend less time together. Also playing out in the background is while she's always been upfront about being bisexual, the #metoo movement and Kavanaugh and everything has made her more aware of her queerness.
We've been attending marriage counseling for about a year and a half, with mixed success. In the early stages, it was a lot about the emotional labor of her having to manage our lives, our household, and so on. Later it was about finances, security, and our sex life. Again with the benefit of hindsight, I can point to a few areas in which I wasn't hearing her, wasn't a true partner. I'm just surprised and embarrassed at how quickly the bond we had has turned; two years is not a long time. But the past six months have been tough, not communicating well, not spending as much time together as we used to. I thought we'd work on it, that we were married and loved each other and committed to counseling and we'd fight through it. I guess she reached her breaking point, and I took that bond for granted. I feel like I didn't do enough.
We had a healthy sex life up until about a year ago, when it tailed off and over the past six months, basically nothing. We both have healthy libidos and when we were really aligned, if I didn't make a move on her a few days, she'd either pounce on me or ask me if anything was on my mind. Over time it's trailed off, partially because of the routineness (both to blame) and partially because of a lack of focus on my end to her needs. The dropoff has made me feel awful about myself, and in talking about in couple's therapy I made it about me - why aren't we having sex, why don't you find me attractive, etc. There were obviously root causes to it that we didn't get to and/or I didn't internalize, and again, I feel bad about that. Lots of things I'd do differently.
She's moving out in two weeks, and since the news, we've been cordial and kind to each other, but awkward and distant. Right after she told me, I had a work trip overseas during which I was a wreck, making the mistake of calling her to talk through some of the pain I was feeling. I also wrote her a long letter explaining some of the areas in which I feel I've failed her, and committing towards fixing them together and to her. At the very least, she can't say she doesn't know how I feel, or that I don't recognize areas in which I've hurt her. Since then, I've been emotionally upset but deadset on asking her for reassurance or relying on her to solve things. We have committed to keeping going to marriage counseling, and she's forthright enough overall that if she really were done, she wouldn't be separating, she'd be serving me papers. So there's a little hope there.
I love her very, very much and my goal is to reconcile. But I know there's no letter I can write to convince her, no action I can perform to turn the tide. She's hurting too (and I know she loves me), and she's sad and upset that things didn't work out the way she thought they would, either. She's framing the separation as removing the dark cloud that was surrounding us living together, and giving us both space to understand what we want. The most painful thing is to see photos of our wedding day around the house and thinking about the goals and optimism we had on that day.
Anyway, I'm sure there's more to it to share, but that's probably enough of a wall-of-text for now. For the time being, the most loving thing I can do is hear her when she says she needs space, to be mindful of her boundaries, commit to working on myself, and in time, remind her of the man she fell in love with. It's scary to detach without any security of her reaching back out to me again, but I can't control that.
Thanks for reading and listening. Open to any advice.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Fast forward to today, a little over two years later, and we're separating. Her choice, terming it a "trial separation". It's hurting very badly, but I've read just about every article on here and elsewhere on the topic, and I'm taking the approach that my best move is to grant her the space that she needs, work on myself, not to overstep boundaries, and be patient.
Yes, exactly.
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As for why, there's a few paper cuts but nothing huge: no affairs that I know of, no abuse. We are in different places in our professional lives: I've risen to the C-suite of my company, and she chose to remove herself from the working world in order to follow her lifelong passions of art and community organization. This created a difficult power imbalance, which was compounded by lack of seeing eye-to-eye on finances; she would ask for more safety in terms of saving, and for lifestyle changes in order to feel more comfortable. I was reticent and stubborn to change my behavior - damn my independence - which made her feel not heard, and not in a true partnership. There have also been instances of trust violations: no affairs, but little lies about stupid things that built up a wall.
Well a lot of times the LBS sees it as minor stuff, but what we don't realize is it's having a bigger impact on the WAS than the realize. She may have been deeply hurting for a long time over not being heard and not feeling like she was in an R. Do take her seriously and don't try to dismiss it as "no big deal, she must be crazy instead". We men, we think that if we're a good parent and a good provider and keep the yard mowed and help with something now and then that that's enough to keep our W happy. But she wants to feel an emotional connection, she wants to be nurtured and listened to and since we don't value that ourselves, we don't see why someone else would. So we starve them of affection without even realizing it.
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In the early stages, it was a lot about the emotional labor of her having to manage our lives, our household, and so on. Later it was about finances, security, and our sex life.
The problem with a WAS is when they bring this stuff up it's not because they want it fixed. Their heart has already left the M. So all they're doing is explaining why it's over. So if she gives you a list and you fix those things, then she gives you another list. There is no winning her back by checking off boxes from her list. That's not to say you shouldn't do 180's, you should. But you have to do them for yourself to be a better person because it's not going to have an immediate impact on her. With time she may come to appreciate your changes, and THEN maybe you can start a new R with her.
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She's moving out in two weeks, and since the news, we've been cordial and kind to each other, but awkward and distant. Right after she told me, I had a work trip overseas during which I was a wreck, making the mistake of calling her to talk through some of the pain I was feeling. I also wrote her a long letter explaining some of the areas in which I feel I've failed her, and committing towards fixing them together and to her. At the very least, she can't say she doesn't know how I feel, or that I don't recognize areas in which I've hurt her.
No more letters or calls or begging and pleading. You are correct, she knows how you feel. No need to remind her, that's just putting pressure on her and right now she wants zero pressure.
Well a lot of times the LBS sees it as minor stuff, but what we don't realize is it's having a bigger impact on the WAS than the realize. She may have been deeply hurting for a long time over not being heard and not feeling like she was in an R. Do take her seriously and don't try to dismiss it as "no big deal, she must be crazy instead". We men, we think that if we're a good parent and a good provider and keep the yard mowed and help with something now and then that that's enough to keep our W happy. But she wants to feel an emotional connection, she wants to be nurtured and listened to and since we don't value that ourselves, we don't see why someone else would. So we starve them of affection without even realizing it.
Yes, this was a very painful realization that I've come to over the past week. I think about it similarly to the clarity someone must feel when they're peering over the edge of a bridge.
She said in counseling that she was feeling very guilty, because she knows I'm hurting and while she is hurting too, she is most upset by thinking about the pain I'm in. I replied that I feel very guilty as well, because I didn't do enough to hear her and to be a partner to her. I'm incredibly remorseful. It's so clear to me now, and it's an awful feeling to think that it might be too late.
Anyway, thank you for the thoughtful reply. I guess I'm in a bit of denial, telling myself that a trial separation as opposed to divorce, her wanting to remain in counseling, and her general cordialness to me is a positive sign overall. Some very tough days ahead.
I learned very quickly to be independent and only rely on myself, to hide from tension and anger and compartmentalize it, and to be a people pleaser in order to not exacerbate things.
This sounds like Nice Guy Syndrome (NGS). Check out the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. It is an excellent companion to DR.
Originally Posted by SteveS
We've been attending marriage counseling for about a year and a half, with mixed success. In the early stages, it was a lot about the emotional labor of her having to manage our lives, our household, and so on. Later it was about finances, security, and our sex life. Again with the benefit of hindsight, I can point to a few areas in which I wasn't hearing her, wasn't a true partner. I'm just surprised and embarrassed at how quickly the bond we had has turned; two years is not a long time. But the past six months have been tough, not communicating well, not spending as much time together as we used to. I thought we'd work on it, that we were married and loved each other and committed to counseling and we'd fight through it. I guess she reached her breaking point, and I took that bond for granted. I feel like I didn't do enough.
The familiarity of this stings. And I agree with AS that it's hard to know if this was ever fixable.
Originally Posted by SteveS
The dropoff has made me feel awful about myself, and in talking about in couple's therapy I made it about me - why aren't we having sex, why don't you find me attractive, etc. There were obviously root causes to it that we didn't get to and/or I didn't internalize, and again, I feel bad about that. Lots of things I'd do differently.
I did this too. Did you go to the same MC as us?
Honestly your situation resonates deeply with me for so many common factors. And the fact that it sounds hard to pin point exactly where things went wrong. Rest assured it is not all your fault, nor is it all your W's. So you can feel regret, but don't feel bad like it's all your fault.
Originally Posted by SteveS
I had a work trip overseas during which I was a wreck, making the mistake of calling her to talk through some of the pain I was feeling. I also wrote her a long letter explaining some of the areas in which I feel I've failed her, and committing towards fixing them together and to her. At the very least, she can't say she doesn't know how I feel, or that I don't recognize areas in which I've hurt her. Since then, I've been emotionally upset but deadset on asking her for reassurance or relying on her to solve things. We have committed to keeping going to marriage counseling, and she's forthright enough overall that if she really were done, she wouldn't be separating, she'd be serving me papers. So there's a little hope there.
Stop the letters. If you want to know why, read my thread. Expressing remorse is great but also probably too late at this point. Don't overdo it. It will likely only reinforce her reasons for leaving.
I think you mean you are deadset on NOT asking her for reassurance. That is the right approach. By the way, seeking reassurance is another NGS symptom.
I'm just an internet stranger bringing my own baggage, and reading a brief posting of yours, then opining strongly on what you should do . So take this for what it is:
Have you considered changing to a different MC? With a different style? 1.5 years is a long time to go to MC with little to no progress. I would say this is a MUST.
Also I'm a little wary about your W being nice and cordial. She expressed guilt about your feelings. If I was in your W's shoes and I felt that way, and I also wanted a D, I might plan to separate first, go to MC, and let you down easy. I'm not saying I know definitively what's in her head, I'm just saying be careful about connecting dots. You have NO CLUE what she is really thinking. It is hard to accept, because when times were good you two were probably in sync, so you may think you understand how her brain works. At this point, assume you don't know.
Hi Steve, from another Steve. I am older and been through this twice with my W, able to save it both times. I have read (studied really) dozens of sitches here on top of my prior two sitches. And I have started to see a lot of patterns.
First sorry you are here, but what you will find here are caring people, people that are willing to talk straight to you (please do not wither from that, the truth sometimes hurts but you have to hear it), and empathy from those of us that have been through.
First, you are doing some things right after making some classic mistakes. AS and unchien both gave you some really good feedback already. But I want to talk about the patterns I am seeing.
1st, I am seeing you with some denial. Remember, you cannot fix what you do not acknowledge. Putting hope in MC with a spouse that is moving out (more on that in a moment), Putting hope in the face that she is only separating and not filing (more on that in a moment). Almost all of us come here in some state of denial. Denial will cause you to put stock in the wrong things, do the wrong things, and not see your sitch clearly.
2nd, I see a very common pattern with your WAW. Letting you down easy. "I am not completely done or I would just file, instead of move out." This is a line. Be sure she is done. At least right now. That can change. (My W was convinced she was done and nothing could change her mind.) Women do not move out to find themselves, or to work on the MR. They move out to be free to do whatever they want to do, most of the time that is sleep with other people. I chose that word people carefully because in your sitch it could be either male or female.
3rd, your W has agreed to continue MC, partly to let you down easy, but also because WAWs like to point back to MC and say "see we tried everything, including counseling". This is a truth you have to understand and I will get to why this clarity is so important for you.
Before I go on, I have a question for you to ponder. NYC is one of the most expensive cities in the U.S. to live. You said she gave up her career for art and community work. How is she moving out? There has to be someone that is willing to support her. And people typically don't do that for a non-lover.
So Steve, you have a pretty good plan. Give her space. Let her find her way. Let her deal with her stuff. She may decide that you and the MR is what she wants........she may not. But you will need to accept that. Saving your marriage is NOT in your control. So you concentrate on saving yourself.
The first thing you should do is cancel MC. MC is a waste of time and money with a WAW. MC isn't even that great when both spouses are committed to the MR, depending on the C. So you need to stop that. If for no other reason than MC IS NOT giving her space. And this is why you need clarity on WHY she agreed to continue MC, because if you don't you will continue to delude yourself that there is hope because of MC. MC will not save your marraige, at least at this point in your sitch.
How is your GAL? Are you out staying busy? Why are you coming home to watch her pack her books? Why are you staring at the wedding photos? Take them down if they annoy you. But you should be out getting a life. Workout. Hangout with friends. Be busy busy busy. She asked for space. Give it to her. But continue to stay active and busy even after she leaves.
180 on the bad behavior that got you here. You need to start preparing for your next relationship......whether that is with her or someone new. Take this opportunity to work on you. While you are getting out of MC, double down on your personal therapy. Do not sacrifice IC for MC. You can tell her like this: "I've decided that for now we need to stop MC, I need to focus on myself and dealing with all of this in IC."
Finally, detach. You need to get to a place of emotional stability. Do not be sad and mopey and woe is me. Be upbeat, present, pleased around her. You need to get to a place where she could come to you and tell you something awful. Something like "I had a gangbang with 100 other people (that word again)" and it would roll off your back like water off a duck.
Steve, this is all difficult. Read DR, study it. Know it. You can use that learning and apply it to your sitch, and give yourself a chance, if there is a chance, at what you want.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
1st, I am seeing you with some denial. Remember, you cannot fix what you do not acknowledge. Putting hope in MC with a spouse that is moving out (more on that in a moment), Putting hope in the face that she is only separating and not filing (more on that in a moment). Almost all of us come here in some state of denial. Denial will cause you to put stock in the wrong things, do the wrong things, and not see your sitch clearly.
Fair enough. I do believe in positive visualization and generally think that having a negative, pessimistic view of things will not help my situation, but I take your point.
Originally Posted by Steve85
2nd, I see a very common pattern with your WAW. Letting you down easy. "I am not completely done or I would just file, instead of move out." This is a line. Be sure she is done. At least right now. That can change. (My W was convinced she was done and nothing could change her mind.) Women do not move out to find themselves, or to work on the MR. They move out to be free to do whatever they want to do, most of the time that is sleep with other people. I chose that word people carefully because in your sitch it could be either male or female.
I don't have much evidence of this, but you've been to this rodeo and not me. Painful.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Before I go on, I have a question for you to ponder. NYC is one of the most expensive cities in the U.S. to live. You said she gave up her career for art and community work. How is she moving out? There has to be someone that is willing to support her. And people typically don't do that for a non-lover.
She's gone back to the working world, accepting a full-time job with strong salary that starts next week. The prospect of living on her own has obviously changed around her finances, and now she's being more pragmatic. To be clear, I had no issues with supporting her on the things that she loved. I did however use it as a baton to make her feel like her opinions on finances were not important to me. So clear in retrospect.
Originally Posted by Steve85
So Steve, you have a pretty good plan. Give her space. Let her find her way. Let her deal with her stuff. She may decide that you and the MR is what she wants........she may not. But you will need to accept that. Saving your marriage is NOT in your control. So you concentrate on saving yourself.
The first thing you should do is cancel MC. MC is a waste of time and money with a WAW. MC isn't even that great when both spouses are committed to the MR, depending on the C. So you need to stop that. If for no other reason than MC IS NOT giving her space. And this is why you need clarity on WHY she agreed to continue MC, because if you don't you will continue to delude yourself that there is hope because of MC. MC will not save your marraige, at least at this point in your sitch.
I don't remember the exact context, but in talking through the various aspects of the separation (such as contact frequency, finances, etc.), everything was generally mutual, including that. My recollection was that she legitimately wanted to maintain a dialogue about what went wrong, in a safe space that is facilitated by neutral, experienced proctor.
Originally Posted by Steve85
How is your GAL? Are you out staying busy? Why are you coming home to watch her pack her books? Why are you staring at the wedding photos? Take them down if they annoy you. But you should be out getting a life. Workout. Hangout with friends. Be busy busy busy. She asked for space. Give it to her. But continue to stay active and busy even after she leaves.
It's been good - I'm working out five days a week, typically out with friends and getting home later she does. I've made a point to never initiate conversation - always her first. She's done so three times this week, once to send me a link to a volunteer group she thought I'd enjoy, and twice to start a conversation about the basketball game that she was watching at home and I was watching at a sports bar.
As far as the books, I only noticed it when I got home - she must have done it during the day. I would never sit around and watch that. But yes, totally agree - I've reconnected with a few friends, joined two sports leagues through my company - exactly the sort of thing she liked about me when we first got together.[/quote]
Originally Posted by Steve85
180 on the bad behavior that got you here. You need to start preparing for your next relationship......whether that is with her or someone new. Take this opportunity to work on you. While you are getting out of MC, double down on your personal therapy. Do not sacrifice IC for MC. You can tell her like this: "I've decided that for now we need to stop MC, I need to focus on myself and dealing with all of this in IC."
Finally, detach. You need to get to a place of emotional stability. Do not be sad and mopey and woe is me. Be upbeat, present, pleased around her. You need to get to a place where she could come to you and tell you something awful. Something like "I had a gangbang with 100 other people (that word again)" and it would roll off your back like water off a duck.
Steve, this is all difficult. Read DR, study it. Know it. You can use that learning and apply it to your sitch, and give yourself a chance, if there is a chance, at what you want.
Good advice, thank you. I will see what I can figure out about her motivation for continuing MC. Maybe I'm being in denial or naive or both, but I really do think she's more confused than anything else. I'm paraphrasing what she told me when she first brought up the idea of trial separation, but to her us continuing the way we were was a sure-fire, beeline towards divorce. She wasn't happy, I wasn't happy, we weren't communicating, there was a dark cloud over everything. Through a certain lens - and again, from her perspective based on what she told me - separating was the best way to communicate that it wasn't over, but something needed to charge in order for both of us to get a new perspective.
And, FWIW, being direct bordering on judgmental is her typical MO; "letting me down easy" is not typically in her repetoire. But you've been there and done that, so I'll take some to internalize that.
I don't have much evidence of this, but you've been to this rodeo and not me. Painful.
Steve, when I caught my W's EA I had no evidence. I had a gut feeling. An instinct. That said "something ain't right". So search in your gut. You wrote the "her queerness" paragraph above. My guess is that you already suspect something. Even if it is just an EA at this point in time. We have a saying around here: a monkey doesn't jump from the branch it is on until it has identified another branch that can support it.
Originally Posted by SteveS
Good advice, thank you. I will see what I can figure out about her motivation for continuing MC. Maybe I'm being in denial or naive or both, but I really do think she's more confused than anything else. I'm paraphrasing what she told me when she first brought up the idea of trial separation, but to her us continuing the way we were was a sure-fire, beeline towards divorce. She wasn't happy, I wasn't happy, we weren't communicating, there was a dark cloud over everything. Through a certain lens - and again, from her perspective based on what she told me - separating was the best way to communicate that it wasn't over, but something needed to charge in order for both of us to get a new perspective.
Living together before marriage is often referred to as "trying it out before getting married". I am anti-shacking up, but this has been the rationale for living together for as long as I can remember. "Trial separation." What do you think that is a "trial" for? I don't know the stats but I would say that the statistics for those that separate would show a pretty high D rate for those that go that route. "but something needed to charge in order for both of us to get a new perspective." I agree with that statement. But my point is why is separating the change? Why is her not sleeping in another bedroom (ok this is NYC so you might only have one, but there is the couch!)?
Now here is the thing. You have no control over that. "I would prefer if we remained together while we work through this. However, I cannot stop you from moving out so if you feel that is what you need to do I will not try to stop you." However, I have to say, that packing up books sounds pretty permanent. And what about leases, assuming she is moving into her own place (do you even know this)?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Hi everyone, thanks for the thoughts and advice. I appreciate it.
More of a journal entry than anything else, a few tough days since I wrote the first message. WAW is with her family, a bachelorette party for her cousin in Charlottesville. She's texted me twice and emailed once over the past two days, both her initiating contact, with me being friendly but very much "clerk in a store".
As far as GAL, last two nights have been spent with friends, watching the NHL and then NBA, just shooting the breeze. It's nice that I've got a good support network to work with. I've also been going to the gym very regularly (~4-5/times a week), including twice with a trainer. I'm 6'5" and about 210 with average body fat, want to get back to my fitness as I used to run track at the collegiate level. My goal isn't to be strong in terms of buff, but lean, swimmer-style strength. I mix that in with a softball and flag football team through work, and pick up tennis as the mood strikes me.
On the topic of my mood, it's been tough. This weekend I plan to get a box and put all of our wedding photos, different bits of memorabilia hanging on the wall, etc. away for the time being. Definitely feeling very lonely, definitely mourning the situation. Privately, of course, and with my IC. I don't doubt that she knows how I feel, so I've been playing it aloof and cool around her. If we interact, it's pleasant, friendly.
WAW did indeed sign a lease, she'll be ten minutes away, one neighborhood over from where we live in NYC. Moves out in about two weeks, boxes piling up in our second bedroom. We have many mutual friends, a few of which have been proactive in telling me that she's been telling them - she's upset, and genuinely confused and unsure if there's a way forward. I know, I know - believe none of what she says.
Plan remains the same. Live my best life, let her contact me, be the most attractive person I can be, and give her the space that she needs. No pressure. I'm back and forth on whether continuing MC is a good idea; I understand the perspectives on here, but I'm also wary of the downside risk of it appearing like I'm giving up.
