LB55 - I like your approach here. Are you willing to share why your W was needing reassurance?
There was a time in my life where I would have just ignored or ghosted this question because I was ashamed.
Basically her stance was that I “vibrated with rage” all the time, her and the kids were scared of me, everyone was always walking on eggshells. I raised my voice when they misbehaved. I spanked them once or twice in 11 years(she spanked them more than I did for perspective). I have a big voice for an average sized guy. Then she BD me, and I started digging into all the accusations of narcissism and personality disorders, and pretty much everyone can identify with some symptoms of mental disorders. So i write this big letter(sound familiar??) that basically said I admit to not being the best father, being gone all the time for the military, checking out mentally when I was home, relaxing with alcohol, stating I might have a personality disorder, and etc. All this crap I didn’t really agree with but I thought opening up to her would help. She turned it into her lawyer and they filed a nuclear war divorce case against me.
I had to under go psychiatric evals, stand in court and not mutter a word in my own defense, and listen while she told the court that I should never see my kids again without supervision for the rest of their life. The judge saw through it but ordered me to get the evals done for psych and alcohol. Neither resulted in anything backing up her statements. So the court covered their butt.
Bottom line we were able to come to some agreements on time with the kids without the court ordering it. I see the kids every other weekend and one weeknight each week. We are able to negotiate that night to fit our schedules. It’s an ok arrangement for now. My work schedule doesn’t support a 50/50 arrangement right now. I will push for that if this divorce continues because it’s important going forward plus the kids asked me for that this past weekend.
So she was super scared because of all this crap her friend is feeding her(miserable D mom). I know this because there was a book at home the last time I was there about how to divorce a narcissist with alcohol problems that had her friends amazon receipt in it for a couple years prior. Her friends exH has come to the house and pulled out trees in anger with his truck and done all kinds of crazy stuff. So she convinced my W that I would be the same way. Then I played right into the hand with that stupid letter I wrote and she got really scared and popped the D with restraints.
It’s funny that I tell the same thing to the guys at work that I confide in and they both tell me I’m the calmest guy they know in Their lives.
In the end; I certainly had/have issues to work on. They aren’t the issues presented, but those are her feelings. I stunk at communication, listening, validating, not solving her problems for her, having boundaries, etc. Basically all the NGS stuff that gets thrown around here. We’ve been on much better terms since I had an hour long validation and listening ‘talk’ in the driveway a month ago or so. She said she liked the ‘listening’ talk so that was affirmation that I am improving my skills. She was definitely surprised by how I handled myself. She expected a fight and got validated to death instead. I could see the curiosity running wild in her mind. She said if she had known what I meant when I said ‘I’m just here to listen’ she would had more to say. She was t ready with all her thoughts together. So I merely said let me know when you are ready to continue. Hasnt happened yet. Not going to push it either. It will happen in time.
We haven’t communicated too much lately, just giving her space to be her. She told me the other day that it’s nice to not be butting heads as much and to really be on the same page with me and I agreed. I really think she is observing the what’s going on with me and starting to question the info she is being fed. I’m not hearing nearly as much about her new friends from my kids anymore. I think she might be distancing from them a bit to evaluate. Hard to say. Her pride may not let her yield, we will see.
26 miles of this marathon left.
I hope that helps give you some perspective on this. Breathe, becalm, listen to her concerns and then validate her feelings. Google non-defensive listening by Gottman. It’s just an internet article but it really helped me understand how to do it.
I hear that one LB55. My WAW read Splitting Stop Walking On Eggshells. Divorcing Someone with Narrcisstic Boarderline Personality Disorder. WAW wanted me to put a suicide plan in place. I did the "apology tour" letters back in Jan too. Just cemented her position further. Lesson learned. Great recommendation of Gottman Non-Defensive Listening I will have to check that out. Uni. I like option 2. She is going to have to learn to trust you by demonstrative action in good faith and take your word for it. Don't agree, acknowledge or sign anything which can potentially be used as an admission of guilt in a court of law. No proof, all verbal. K.I.S.S.
Oh hey here is another great psychology dynamic. The Fear/Shame Dynamic. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/200904/marriage-problems-50-ways-cause-fear-and-shame%3famp
There was a time in my life where I would have just ignored or ghosted this question because I was ashamed.
Likewise. The first step in healing is getting over toxic shame.
Originally Posted by LB55
Basically her stance was that I “vibrated with rage” all the time, her and the kids were scared of me, everyone was always walking on eggshells. I raised my voice when they misbehaved. I spanked them once or twice in 11 years(she spanked them more than I did for perspective). I have a big voice for an average sized guy. Then she BD me, and I started digging into all the accusations of narcissism and personality disorders, and pretty much everyone can identify with some symptoms of mental disorders. So i write this big letter(sound familiar??) that basically said I admit to not being the best father, being gone all the time for the military, checking out mentally when I was home, relaxing with alcohol, stating I might have a personality disorder, and etc. All this crap I didn’t really agree with but I thought opening up to her would help. She turned it into her lawyer and they filed a nuclear war divorce case against me.
This is so familiar it is unnerving. It would be shorter for me to state the differences: No L involved (yet).
Originally Posted by LB55
I had to under go psychiatric evals, stand in court and not mutter a word in my own defense, and listen while she told the court that I should never see my kids again without supervision for the rest of their life. The judge saw through it but ordered me to get the evals done for psych and alcohol. Neither resulted in anything backing up her statements. So the court covered their butt.
Unbelievable, but also, believable. I'm aware this may be coming for me at some point as well. I'm sorry you had to go through this!
Originally Posted by LB55
Bottom line we were able to come to some agreements on time with the kids without the court ordering it. I see the kids every other weekend and one weeknight each week. We are able to negotiate that night to fit our schedules. It’s an ok arrangement for now. My work schedule doesn’t support a 50/50 arrangement right now. I will push for that if this divorce continues because it’s important going forward plus the kids asked me for that this past weekend.
Sounds similar to my plan if we D... literally.... start off every other weekend (extending by a day, so making it 4 nights), then moving to 50/50.
Originally Posted by LB55
So she was super scared because of all this crap her friend is feeding her(miserable D mom). I know this because there was a book at home the last time I was there about how to divorce a narcissist with alcohol problems that had her friends amazon receipt in it for a couple years prior. Her friends exH has come to the house and pulled out trees in anger with his truck and done all kinds of crazy stuff. So she convinced my W that I would be the same way. Then I played right into the hand with that stupid letter I wrote and she got really scared and popped the D with restraints.
My W's friend is D'd twice no kids. She gave W the book about divorcing a narcissist or borderline. Her husband was financially sly and secretive -- guess what? I got accused of financial control out of the blue when we never before argued about money!
Originally Posted by LB55
It’s funny that I tell the same thing to the guys at work that I confide in and they both tell me I’m the calmest guy they know in Their lives.
I *also* hear this!
Originally Posted by LB55
In the end; I certainly had/have issues to work on. They aren’t the issues presented, but those are her feelings. I stunk at communication, listening, validating, not solving her problems for her, having boundaries, etc. Basically all the NGS stuff that gets thrown around here.
[nodding head]
Originally Posted by LB55
We’ve been on much better terms since I had an hour long validation and listening ‘talk’ in the driveway a month ago or so. She said she liked the ‘listening’ talk so that was affirmation that I am improving my skills. She was definitely surprised by how I handled myself. She expected a fight and got validated to death instead. I could see the curiosity running wild in her mind. She said if she had known what I meant when I said ‘I’m just here to listen’ she would had more to say. She was t ready with all her thoughts together. So I merely said let me know when you are ready to continue. Hasnt happened yet. Not going to push it either. It will happen in time.
Glad to hear that validation is working for you. I am struggling right now as all of our interactions are primarily over text, and exist almost solely of financial or kid matters. Sometimes I validate, a lot of time we are negotiating about something so validation does not really work. I do try to only negotiate on items that are important to me (like time with the kids) for now.
Originally Posted by LB55
I hope that helps give you some perspective on this. Breathe, becalm, listen to her concerns and then validate her feelings. Google non-defensive listening by Gottman. It’s just an internet article but it really helped me understand how to do it.
This gives me excellent perspective. It's easy to fall into the line of thinking that I need to hit EJECT. I feel like that is a NG response (build up fear, then explode). I can't say how helpful it is to hear your story for me, and how much progress you have made. It is inspiring.
Ok guys I need help. W had asked for this safety plan before I watch the kids next week, which is also before our next MC appointment: I had initially agreed to give it in MC, then she asked if I would have it before I watched the kids and I had said okay.
It was a huge mistake. No 2x4 or 4x4 necessary.
So now if she asks before I watch the kids what can I say:
W: you will have that safety plan for me before I drop off the kids right?
Options:
- I thought we were going to discuss in MC. - no I will not have it. I don’t agree with the implication that I am unsafe or unfit as a parent. If you want to work together on a parenting plan for both of us I am happy to do that. - others?
U, I like option 2 for the reasons LB and IH outlined. I would also not shy away from telling her that you discussed it with your lawyer and that you were advised not to provide it to her.
Quote
And if she goes ballistic:
- I’m sorry you feel that way - ???
Validation is OK but that sounds dismissive. Maybe something more like "I know this is very difficult for you."
Quote
And if she says she won’t let me see the kids before MC?
- I think that is unfair and unwarranted. - ???
What do you mean by this? Do you have an agreement that she has 100% custody and that you only get to see the kids with her permission? If so, how in the world did you let that happen? That should not be her decision to make. I just don't understand when I read stuff like this, I don't know how you guys paint yourselves into these corners despite all the contrary advice you get here. Anything less than 50-50 custody should be unacceptable, period. Call your lawyer, explain this conversation that you are about to have with her to him, and ask what legal action can be taken if she refuses to let you see your kids. Then if she hits you with this then calmly explain to her that you've discussed it with your L and if she refuses then you will proceed with XYZ to ensure you get proper time with YOUR children. Look U, it's time to pull on your big boy pants and start playing hardball with her.
If anyone reading this is unclear on child visitation versus DB'ing, we counsel to ALWAYS put your kids first. If you think that allowing your W to dictate all the terms of visitation will somehow earn you points with her you are WRONG! It will likely have the opposite effect, she will see you as a wimpy, pathetic pushover that doesn't care enough about his kids to fight for them. But if you accept no less than 50-50 and you fight for that, she will respect you even if she gripes and complains about it.
LB55 - I like your approach here. Are you willing to share why your W was needing reassurance?
There was a time in my life where I would have just ignored or ghosted this question because I was ashamed.
Basically her stance was that I “vibrated with rage” all the time, her and the kids were scared of me, everyone was always walking on eggshells. I raised my voice when they misbehaved. I spanked them once or twice in 11 years(she spanked them more than I did for perspective). I have a big voice for an average sized guy. Then she BD me, and I started digging into all the accusations of narcissism and personality disorders, and pretty much everyone can identify with some symptoms of mental disorders. So i write this big letter(sound familiar??) that basically said I admit to not being the best father, being gone all the time for the military, checking out mentally when I was home, relaxing with alcohol, stating I might have a personality disorder, and etc. All this crap I didn’t really agree with but I thought opening up to her would help. She turned it into her lawyer and they filed a nuclear war divorce case against me.
I had to under go psychiatric evals, stand in court and not mutter a word in my own defense, and listen while she told the court that I should never see my kids again without supervision for the rest of their life. The judge saw through it but ordered me to get the evals done for psych and alcohol. Neither resulted in anything backing up her statements. So the court covered their butt.
Bottom line we were able to come to some agreements on time with the kids without the court ordering it. I see the kids every other weekend and one weeknight each week. We are able to negotiate that night to fit our schedules. It’s an ok arrangement for now. My work schedule doesn’t support a 50/50 arrangement right now. I will push for that if this divorce continues because it’s important going forward plus the kids asked me for that this past weekend.
So she was super scared because of all this crap her friend is feeding her(miserable D mom). I know this because there was a book at home the last time I was there about how to divorce a narcissist with alcohol problems that had her friends amazon receipt in it for a couple years prior. Her friends exH has come to the house and pulled out trees in anger with his truck and done all kinds of crazy stuff. So she convinced my W that I would be the same way. Then I played right into the hand with that stupid letter I wrote and she got really scared and popped the D with restraints.
It’s funny that I tell the same thing to the guys at work that I confide in and they both tell me I’m the calmest guy they know in Their lives.
In the end; I certainly had/have issues to work on. They aren’t the issues presented, but those are her feelings. I stunk at communication, listening, validating, not solving her problems for her, having boundaries, etc. Basically all the NGS stuff that gets thrown around here. We’ve been on much better terms since I had an hour long validation and listening ‘talk’ in the driveway a month ago or so. She said she liked the ‘listening’ talk so that was affirmation that I am improving my skills. She was definitely surprised by how I handled myself. She expected a fight and got validated to death instead. I could see the curiosity running wild in her mind. She said if she had known what I meant when I said ‘I’m just here to listen’ she would had more to say. She was t ready with all her thoughts together. So I merely said let me know when you are ready to continue. Hasnt happened yet. Not going to push it either. It will happen in time.
We haven’t communicated too much lately, just giving her space to be her. She told me the other day that it’s nice to not be butting heads as much and to really be on the same page with me and I agreed. I really think she is observing the what’s going on with me and starting to question the info she is being fed. I’m not hearing nearly as much about her new friends from my kids anymore. I think she might be distancing from them a bit to evaluate. Hard to say. Her pride may not let her yield, we will see.
26 miles of this marathon left.
I hope that helps give you some perspective on this. Breathe, becalm, listen to her concerns and then validate her feelings. Google non-defensive listening by Gottman. It’s just an internet article but it really helped me understand how to do it.
Just had to say reading this helped me immensely. My W is still in replay with new online friends but I totally understanandthe progression now. Thank you LB.
Do you have an agreement that she has 100% custody and that you only get to see the kids with her permission? If so, how in the world did you let that happen? That should not be her decision to make....
If anyone reading this is unclear on child visitation versus DB'ing, we counsel to ALWAYS put your kids first. If you think that allowing your W to dictate all the terms of visitation will somehow earn you points with her you are WRONG! It will likely have the opposite effect, she will see you as a wimpy, pathetic pushover that doesn't care enough about his kids to fight for them. But if you accept no less than 50-50 and you fight for that, she will respect you even if she gripes and complains about it.
AS - No, we do not have such an agreement.
We've been working out the custody arrangement in our weekly counseling sessions (unfortunately we had to skip the last 2 weeks).
Unfortunately my W is basically saber-rattling that she wants this plan of "3 things I can do when I feel overwhelmed" to trust me to have the kids. She has been very emotional in MC the first few times, and I did a lot of listening and validating, which was a mistake, because I should have stood up for myself. I do not know what she intends to do if I don't provide the plan, or if I instead provide a "here's some good parenting tips for both of us" type of a plan. I know I'm supposed to have the kids next week on specific dates, per our plan. She may rant and rave that I didn't hold up some agreement. I don't know. I have a lawyer on stand-by if I need to assert my rights further.
I also told my W I would be taking some parenting classes in the fall. Somehow she twisted this into "I want to know the dates of those classes" as a requirement as well. I told her those classes were my idea alone, because I am interested in being a better father. She didn't like that either.
I feel like I cave to my W not to earn points, but because I am conflict avoidant and a "people pleaser" (NGS) by nature. This is a problem. This issue, right here, is absolutely one I have to stand up for. If that means like LB55 we go down the legal route, and I undergo psych evals and all that, so be it.
Well, I sent my W the generic parenting guidelines e-mail. Her response I guess was predictable, pointing out that these are "good general parenting principles." I have to paraphrase to avoid Google, but she asked for a revised draft including:
- very specific healthy coping techniques when I am triggered or when things escalate - a plan that should make sure everyone is safe - I should review it with my IC
She kept remarking how I agreed to do this before.
I am really angry right now. There is an implicit threat that she is going to withhold our kids from me.
I don't feel unsafe as a parent. She is going to make a huge ordeal out of this. It's time to stand up. I'm smart enough not to respond tonight, or maybe at all, given how upset I am right now. Maybe I wait for our next MC next week, even though she may try to withhold the kids before then.
Hi Unchien, glad you have the resolve to wait for tomorrow to respond. Her demand sound extreme, more in line with someone who has multiple or documented instances of child abuse.
My partner of two years feels I’m anxious and unpredictable. That’s annoying. I can’t imagine the frustration of someone you spent many years with feeling you’re unsafe around your own kids.
CW - Obviously in her mind it is justified. I have done two things in my life that I regret with my kids. Once I grabbed my son's leg hard in the car when he was hitting his sister. It didn't leave a mark, but it was hard and scared him. The second thing is I grabbed him once hard and shook him - it was not violent shaking like his head snapping around. Inappropriate and wrong, yes.
Both of these were awhile ago - now that we are going through the S my W has amped up her concerns. It's just a toxic situation.
I may wait until MC next week to respond. Even if it means she withholds the kids before then. It's not right, but I don't think standing up for myself and getting into an e-mail, phone, or text exchange with my W at this point outside of MC is going to be helpful. I could pursue the legal route, but again I think waiting until MC is likely the prudent move.
This really really [censored]. It's hard enough going through the S, but honestly DB'ing or working on the M or whatever is the last thing on my mind. I want my time with my kids. This may mean taking legal action soon. I would prefer not.
CW - Obviously in her mind it is justified. I have done two things in my life that I regret with my kids. Once I grabbed my son's leg hard in the car when he was hitting his sister. It didn't leave a mark, but it was hard and scared him. The second thing is I grabbed him once hard and shook him - it was not violent shaking like his head snapping around. Inappropriate and wrong, yes.
Both of these were awhile ago - now that we are going through the S my W has amped up her concerns. It's just a toxic situation.
I may wait until MC next week to respond. Even if it means she withholds the kids before then. It's not right, but I don't think standing up for myself and getting into an e-mail, phone, or text exchange with my W at this point outside of MC is going to be helpful. I could pursue the legal route, but again I think waiting until MC is likely the prudent move.
This really really [censored]. It's hard enough going through the S, but honestly DB'ing or working on the M or whatever is the last thing on my mind. I want my time with my kids. This may mean taking legal action soon. I would prefer not.
Good on you for waiting to respond. This is probably the hardest thing to learn, went through very excruciating 6 or 7 months of knee jerk responding until I learned this.
I know it's tough, but try to work on emotional detachment, U. Just because those incidents were perceived as egregious actions by your W does not make them so. Those were her perceptions (or ARE those perceptions) right now. You know what happened from your perspective, not hers.
The truth is always in the gray area, and if you keep giving her assertations creedence that this was abuse, it will balloon out of control on you. No amount of MC will correct that.
This is why you do move out of the house. Secondly, I would not respond at all and when it comes up in MC I would simply let her know after further thought I don't agree with providing a safe plan or whatever you call it and I will not be moving out of the house unless I have a 50/50 split of custody in writing. I will accept nothing less.
You have to stand up for yourself. You are not fighting for your marriage you are fighting for yourself. You have to shift your focus and the desire to save yourself has to be stronger than the desire to save your marriage.
I don't know who's idea it was to go to MC or why your continuing it but if this is how it is being used to attempt to railroad you into $hit then I would tell your wife that you are done and will no longer be attending.
It's going to get worse before it gets better but you are going to have to put your foot down.
