I love reading this board as i then realise i'm not alone in the rubbish that the WW throw our way...
In your case Josh, the Relationship Scorecard, not handling critisism, interfering etc.. Ive had all of this, and the same scenarious ( plus many more )
I actually listed a lot of this stuff as points for improvement during my first MC session. From that the counciler brought up ( not in the session, but on a call before another MC session ) that the WW may have a cluster b disorder - ( BPD or Vunerable narsasism ) ...
Originally Posted by Josh_T
Some of these have improved since I've been setting boundaries. The one thing i dont know is if she's aware of her reaction to critism. I'm not willing to test that now and have held back any critism for months in order to ensure no angry reactions or risk any chance of her feeling that nothing changes.
My WW actually told me once to never ever critisise her, as she will never forget it...
I read on a post somewhere that many a LBS assumes his WW is BPD or has vunerable narsasism..
One things for sure, your WW shows a lot of the traits mine had.. maybe she ticks other BPD boxes ?
Previous username - Helpme123.. A name chosen at a desperate time..
Now Mr Brightside.. coming out of my cage, and doing just fine.
Forgot to mention EA. She wanted to travel by herself post BD. I said yes and foolishly took time off to take care of kids. I wish I set that boundary but I didn't know you all here then. Anyway.
She came back and I was still hoping we could reconcile. In one of her angry monologues she said she didn't love me amd she was in love with someone she met overseas. I knew something was up because since she got home it was always after dinner she'd retreat to her bedroom. I actually said that is pretty normal and when in a stressful relationship, we naturally can look elsewhere. I even stated I was contemplating looking up an old friend with benefits. She didn't expect that reply. Her monologue continued in that she was feeling pressure with our R and pressure from OM for her to visit him. W is a smart girl but sometimes her fantasies are just dumb. Move overseas? Leave kids? WTF? How could this possibly work? A few days later the retreat to the bedroom stopped. It's possible it's still going on and it's possible she is just more discreet. Based on current state of mind, my gut says no. But who knows.
At the end of this outburst she said she loved me and we cried together.
All, I can't tell you how much your advice means to me. I've learnt as much here on DB and reading Mr. Nice Guy as a year of IC. My IC wraps up (I'm told no longer needed) and this fourm has just been great.
I feel I have taken DB a bit too far and I think Sandi you eluded to that. Today I've opened up a bit more with W. We had a nice evening of fun with kids, TV together, a few good laughs, and chats about all sorts of things other than R.
Man up indeed, and I've seen the small changes in response. Even today asking for my opinion on something as mundane as what take away dinner for a family birthday. The thing is I normally would hold back my opinion and claim whatever, I'm easy. Instead that jerk isn't there and I've been more assertive. I think being too vague about GAL is not good for the anxious. But yeah, smashing post D fantasies and not reacting to emotinal bursts has been good detachment.
Emotional abuse. I don't use the term lightly and I'll provide some examples.
Relationship Scorecard: Always bringing up the past to hurt or to guilt, usually in a barrage of multiple complaints. I end up feeling ashamed (Nice Guy shame), guilty, or profess I'll do better. A no win scenario for me because there is always something that could be brought up. In highly emotive states, especially during her period, my sins have bordered on the ludicrous. Once I was even accused of not laughing. Not sure why I should be laughing during her complaining monologues (Maybe I should). In fact there actually was a hilarious moment in one where I did almost laugh. She complained I was too hairy "down there" which made sex "ALWAYS repulsive" . I validated and then stated it bothered me too so I now I shave. The shock on her face: priceless. Last time this sort of outburst happened I cooly responded but never got angry. Now I didn't know about boundaries then so I didn't assert a consequence.
Inability to handle criticism, even if "trivial". Rections are either reflecting back to me things I do wrong, justification for her actions, or just plain "why are you mean to me?". Usually escalates into other issues if not checked. Can escalate into literal stares of hatred which is truely confronting.
Interfering when not asked and if rebuffed, will respond as if critisized. Example might be cooking (and she is better). If i rebuke her unwanted help it can burst into comments like "I've cooked longer, I'm better than you, ill just do it". Once I asked to just let me fail, but the point was lost on her. Now if it ever happens again, ill validate and just state i need to learn my way.
Relationship Hostage: before BD, arguments can escalate to "i don't feel close you", "I can't be with someone who is mean to me", "I will leave when the kids are older"
Blaming Others for her Emotions: "You make me angry", "You make me eat carbs because I'm stressed". Worst part is that this has been directed to the kids and I never stepped in. To her credit, she caught herself doing this the other day so she's learning. Which I say is because of me since I've directly told her many times that her emotional reactions are her choice only.
Some of these have improved since I've been setting boundaries. The one thing i dont know is if she's aware of her reaction to critism. I'm not willing to test that now and have held back any critism for months in order to ensure no angry reactions or risk any chance of her feeling that nothing changes.
Hope this clarifies what I mean. There is one other thing but I don't think it's toxic and that is she sees the negative side of past events. I see that as just a normal reaction to her current state of mind. I do try to point out the positive when that sort of reflecting comes up ...
I also have to say that dealing with these toxic behaviours would form an R condition if there will ever be any talk of piecing.
I am not sure I agree with the Emotional Abuse tag for these things. To me emotional abuse has intent behind it. Gas-lighting is a perfect example of this. It is awfully hard to gaslight someone without actually setting out to gaslight them.
A lot of what you describe is someone that has issues trying to deal with those issues in unhealthy ways. It doesn't make her a bad person. It makes her a flawed person.
Emotional baggage is a better label. Or emotional immaturity. Or even emotional damage. I know my W has dealt with all three of those due to her childhood. I never felt she was emotionally abusive (IE she wasn't doing it on purpose).
Anyway, I think emotional abuse is greatly over used, especially when dealing with some one with emotional issues just trying to protect themselves.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Josh - I struggle to organize my posts because I have so many thoughts running around, but here goes:
The topic of labeling words and actions as Emotional Abuse, or classifying people as BPD or NPD, strikes a nerve with me.
For us NG's, I think this is a trap. Obviously there is real Emotional Abuse, and your W does sound extreme in some cases where maybe it qualifies. But....... NG's allow this to happen. And to some of Sandi's points, NG's actually cause this to happen (and a NG will react to this accusation with extreme defensiveness). A classic NG will say "I am innocent, I was just going along, pleasing my W" when in actuality we are DRIVING our W's to behave in this way. Especially when it comes to control. I know my W is by nature kinda controlling - I also completely played into it by allowing her to become more controlling over the years, by ceding control, by not being a man when I needed to be.
My W works in the mental health field. The tendency to label (or diagnose) words, actions, and people drives me absolutely nuts. I think it can be useful as a starting point to understand someone else better, or learn healthier strategies for interacting with that person, but it can lead down a dark hole. "So-and-so is such a narcissist" etc. I strongly resist labeling, it is only useful to point you towards resources (books, articles, podcasts, etc.) to help learn more. And one should always have a healthy skepticism - once you pick up a book on Emotional Abuse, you will immediately start identifying with every single little detail, but if you step back you will be able to differentiate what is truly abusive, and what is more "normal" relationship conflict.
I have been accused of Emotional Abuse (and worse). I have bought books on Emotional Abuse, from both perspectives. I bought "Should you leave him?" books from the abused female's perspective. One of these books had different chapters for the Abused, the Abuser, and the Mutually Abusive Relationship. Guess what?! You could match the behaviors in my MR to all 3 cases! Or none of them! I could be abused, the abuser, or we could both be abusing the heck out of each other! It's all a matter of degrees. If there is a 15-item questionnaire "Is your relationship Emotionally Abusive?" I guarantee you that every single relationship will tick off some of those boxes. And the more I read these books, the more I realized we are both engaging in many of these behaviors, neither of us in a way that really qualifies us as abusers, and real change would require both of us to change. I've never called my W a bad name, I've never hit her, I've never intentionally gaslighted. The more I read about Emotional Abuse, the more confused I get, the more gaslit I feel, because it has so much gray area.
To Steve's point, a lot of this behavior qualifies as emotional immaturity, baggage or damage. In extreme cases, it is definitely abuse. In the same way, many people exhibit traits of BPD or NPD, but few actually meet the criteria. And whether or not they meet the criteria, it doesn't really change that much how to interact with them. And just because someone has a label or does not, they both can change. The "5 out of 9" criteria in the DSM or whatever they have changed it to doesn't matter - BPD/NPD is an extremely controversial diagnosis precisely because it is so confusing and so many people exhibit some traits but not all, or a mix of several things, and yada yada... my point is all you should care about is what does your W's emotional immaturity mean to you?
Validation and detachment, for example: This is EXACTLY what you are supposed to do interacting with a BPD or NPD. It's also a good way to distance yourself from a WAS, or anybody who is emotionally erratic, or someone you are emotionally tethered to in an unhealthy way. So in some ways learning how to interact with a BPD/NPD is similar to how to interact with a WAW, but that does not necessarily mean the WAW is diagnosable. And again... I think it doesn't really matter what the label or diagnosis is. I don't even like talking about "how to interact with a BPD" - labeling is very reductive and kind of patronizing. So again, I agree with Steve that I view this more as "that person has emotional baggage, just like every single person on the planet."
I do think Emotional Abuse can exist without malicious intent. But it's really really really easy to call something "emotional abuse" when it's really just "relationship conflict." My W called me "financially controlling" because she didn't understand our finances. She never asked! I never withheld money. She has business accounts I have never had access to, nor do I know the value. The day she accused me I printed out all our passwords and account values, and she didn't even look at it for 4 months. Was she gaslighting me? I don't think so. What she felt was a lack of control herself because we moved and she stopped working. So I try to understand the source of her accusation without taking it at face value.
Now, I will say, your W sounds more extreme than mine. My MR issues really started 2-3 years ago, whereas you seem to have had conflict with your W from Day 1.
So going back to my original point -- I've spent over a year now in IC, reading books, listening to podcasts, really trying to understand my own baggage and what's going on in my sitch. Emotional Abuse, BPD, NPD -- all labels. Useful for educating one's self, but don't get overly consumed with deciding whether the label fits or not. I've decided there are only 2 things that matter:
1. NGS is real. Work on myself and fix it. 2. Abuse, BPD, NPD - the labels don't matter. The only thing that matters now is whether my W is willing to work on her baggage.
Baggage in the form of (using your list):
Relationship Scorecard - the barrage of complaints (someone once told me this is called the s@#$ tsunami) where you end up feeling like crap no matter how much validation you employ. Awful way to communicate. I've raised this in MC, it is a condition for R. New Year's Eve she went off with 12 different complaints in a 30 minute barrage.
Interference/Control - Check. Example My W complained our first time in MC last year. about household chores. Then when I agreed to do them, she said I would not hold up my end of the bargain - she actually resisted allowing me to attempt to do them! So we started small: I ended up doing the dishes every day (so she could leave the dish full of dirty dishes and not worry about them), and even then, she would complain I was too noisy, or doing it at the wrong time. I told her, "Listen, this is my task now, as long as I am not waking the kids up or being overly disruptive, please allow me to do the dishes the way I want". That helped. I'm only saying that surmounting the hurdle of extremely controlling behavior can be difficult, but it is is possible. You just have to assert yourself.
Relationship Hostage - Mine has been more subtle, in the form of her distancing herself and stopping communication. Again, a communication style that does not work for me.
Blaming Others - "You make me..." Anytime I hear this now, I always call my W out. I can't make anybody feel a certain way, or make them do anything.
I think it's very healthy to identify the things you would like to see change. Whether or not you call it abuse, you want your W to change those behaviors. Whether or not your W has malicious intent with these behavior also does not matter - you just want your W to change those behaviors.
TLDR: Focus on the behavior changes, not the diagnosis or intent behind the behaviors.
Unchien, thanks. I agree with you actually. Me, the NG drove a lot of that behaviour and I admit that. NG play victim and I agree I fall in that trap still. You reminded me that my psy in IC doesn't like labels and yeah, whilst it helps me to make sense of my confusing world ultimately, leave it to the professionals for diagnisis.
Those are old behaviours driven by different people in a relationship that is now dead. As a recovering NG asserting boundaries and detaching this emotional baggage has not surfaced much for months. And that genuinely makes me happy, driving a positive feedback loop. And my emotinal baggage is, over time, being dealt with.
I'll take a page from No More Mr. NG and say that my W (STBXW, XW or whatever) is a gift, a gift to learn to be a better man and a better person. S is what was needed to break co-dependency and to learn how to live, through GAL and through spending time alone. I meant it when I say despite the sh*tty sitch, and that I'm not emotionally satisfied, I'm actually at the most happiest place in my life. And I can thank her for starting that journey for me.
Josh_T - 100% agree with the gift, I read that book a year and a half ago and didn't understand. I re-read it last month and I thought "this guy just explained exactly how I feel."
