Anxious, Emotional Neglect, and LRT

[IHCLACS]

I am going to re read these last 6-10 posts here. Generate a list, and identify and work on these things. This is by far the best informative post I have seen yet on here. It really brings together all the mindsets, proper validation techniques, composure, behavioral, and idendification of healthy and unhealthy R dynamics.

[MrBrside]

Unchien,

Re-read your post, as it was insightful...

And you seem to have done the research / reading up on this.. Appologies for the hyjack to Josh's post, but i do have a question about this statement...

1. NGS is real. Work on myself and fix it.
2. Abuse, BPD, NPD - the labels don't matter. The only thing that matters now is whether my W is willing to work on her baggage.

Label or not, i believe my WW emotionally abused me and suffered BPD / NPD... I walked into my first councilling session with a list of issues that i felt needed addressing. At this point i had never heard of cluster B disorders, BPD or Vunerable NPD ( i'd heard the term narsasist, but related it to a poser like Lex Luger from WWF when i was like 10 ), but VNPD had never entered my head.

It was the counciler who mentioned this before our second session from memory - This was based off what i had written down as issues in session 1.. Out of my 8 issues with my WW, 7 fall into the BPD / NPD box..

My WW had baggage... I see that now, and i definetly had / have NGS - Ive just reread my intro post on this board from January and i list 5 times when she overstepped the mark and i just ignored / bent over the accomidate...

But my point / question being, baggage is one thing... and if the WW is prepared to work on it, great - .. But from my own research and from everything ive read, it is very very hard to get people with BPD / VNPD to even accept they have issues, let alone work on it. The general advice online seems to be walk away from BPD, VNPD people...

thoughts on this ?

[IHCLACS]

BPD takes planned responses and exercises, counciling, and emotional regulation. At least one year of therapy. I have BPD characteristics cross linked with mild ADD. Basically my experience has been low frustration tolerance. Repeaded boundary crossing. Thoughts that manifest into active emotional responses that may or may not be relevant to the current situation. So it lends credibility to others having experienced the Dr. Jeckyl/Mr. Hyde affect. The thoughts precede the emotions. Its a spectrum ranging from benign to malignant. Some people have anxiety, compulsive thoughts, and are "a little high strung" sensitive, and reactionary. Make sense?

[Josh71]

Helpme12, don't worry about hijacking this post. All good stuff because I'm interested too in BPD since many of those behaviours are relatable. Seems to me NGS and BPD are a natural combo like anxious/avoidant attachment. In any event, I think its about what you can live with. If my W's new norm is to try to cross a boundary once a month, cooling down the same day, I could live with that. If it's complaining about things because she has low tolerance (and she does) but doesn't direct that frustration to me or the kids, I could live with that.

It's something I need to wait and see because I don't know how much of this she brought to R versus NGS created by me. Maybe nothing of W will change even thought NGS is no more. I can only hope that is not true and stay positive that my changes will impact her in some way. MWD even talks about this in her "Takes One to Tango" concept.

[MrBrside]

There is so much on BPD online, i can relate to what unchein says about labelling..

From my personal context ( the the bits that ive read that relate to my sitch )

Lovebombing - i got hit with Major love bombs from the day i met her ( might have been the week later when i asked her out ) - she added me on Facebook and sent me txt after txt. I had never had any previous GF give me this level of attention.. And they say "crazy in head, crazy in bed" - I felt like i was living with a porn star.
She always used to compliment me as well - excessivelly..
She would also make "off the wall" comments about me leaving her once we found out she was pregnant... Used to confuse me.

I've read a lot of references to extreme jealousy - This should have been a major red flag, as she used to go crazy if females messaged me - friends or ex GFs - with 12 months i had ceased all contact with any old female friends as it wasnt worth the ex getting upset..

The need for attention was off the scale and i found her flirting / deleting messages from her ex BF, just after D1 was born..

Another biggy was never being in the wrong. She would never appologise and it was always somebody elses fault.. 100% of the time, even if it was 100% obvious it was her mess up - she could never accept it.

Probably the biggest was the emotional blackmail. If she didnt get own way, i was accused of abuse or being controlling...

Some of the worst examples were..

2015 - 8 weeks pregnant and we got offered a low offer on our house which was for sale. I refused to accept it. We had agreed a figure and we both agreed we wouldnt go any lower. Once we got offered the lower figure, she wanted to accept it.. I refused so she booked an abortion and said she would have it unless i accepted the lower offer. By this time, the buyers own sale had falled through, so she was livid that we couldnt sell. She then found a new build that offered "part ex" - the deal was terrible and the house wasnt suitable.. So she went ahead and had the abortion.. 4 weeks later we moved into rented accomidation and she was happy - and wanted to try for a baby again..

2017 - Moved into our "dream home" and decided she wanted a boob job - just like that.... I said we couldnt afford as we had just moved house.. Her solution was to tell our children we were no longer going on holiday ( which was booked and paid for ).. She didnt care that the eldest was upset... she decided if she couldnt have the boob job, we werent going away.. Again NGS kicked in and i paid for it with my bonus.

There are a lot more.. But this isnt normal.

Once she went WW, all this went 10 fold and the lies and gaslighting came into full force... And of course everything got put back on me..

What i find ironic in all this is that before WW left, i heard some of the conversations / read lots of messages between her and OM... Talk about love bombing the poor guy.. and her joking about having sex 6 times last night.. She also bombed him with compliments and how she has never met a guy like him... Oh and frequent references to "after ive move out ( ie from our home ) you will probably not want me any more"...Basically in my eyes, she is showing the exact same traits she showed when we got together.

H If my W's new norm is to try to cross a boundary once a month, cooling down the same day, I could live with that.

Depends on the boundary.. My WW started to message an ex BF after D1 was born... She never saw anything wrong with flirting... I should have walked then.. Healthy people dont do that kind of thing..

[Josh71]

Helpme12, thats pretty extreme. I can relate but on a less severe scale. Here are the boundaries I let her get away with:

Pick the house we bought together
Control all aspects of raising new born
Let her complain that not supporting her with a new born was the worst thing that ever happened to her
Let her remind me at least 10x a year that not supporting her with a new born was the worst thing that happened to her
Go to free R counselling which was totally ineffective (duh)
Go to govt backed R counselling which was ineffective, but lie that I'm a lowly office worker to save $
Let her have sex with OM because I obviously had no sex drive
Let her violate the don't ask don't tell boundary on sex with OM because her OM moved overseas and now she wants to put effort back to having sex
Sleep in another room off and on for years because "she needs space"
Let her pout in front of my mother and call her a snake for nothing other than being around
Ask me to lie on taxes and say we're separated in order to get govt benefits
Let her shout at kids
Let her blame kids for her emotions
Let her say within earshot of daughter that she sometimes hates her
Almost let her move family out of house, put possessions in storage, and move into in-laws to make $ on Air BnB during XMas
Tried to rationalisate a Big D property settlement where she gets the apartment, kids get family house in trust, I get SFA

Going over this list now. Wow. I'm not saying i hate myself. But WTF was I thinking? How little self respect I had. No wonder I am where I am now. God. Makes me a bit angry actually to read this. In any event, it's the past and I didn't kniw any better. For sure this sort of thing isn't happening again!

Yeah,acceptance depends on the boundary for sure. I was thinking just of things like blaming others, or relationship scorecard. Any of your examples or any my list are not acceptable in my books.

[MrBrside]

Out of all the stuff i just read, the words that hit me were "self respect"

IMO, its all about self respect.

I have known for years that her behaviour isnt normal..

Our relationship shared similar issues to yours.

Pick the house we bought together - plus everything in it - granite, kitchen, carpets, etc
Control all aspects of raising new born - very routine based - would never switch from the routine..
Let her complain that not supporting her with a new born was the worst thing that ever happened to her - heard it a million times.

These are just at a glance.. I look back now and think "dude WTF !!!! why did you let her do this"

I know the reason.. The family - our children - their stability...

At the expense of my own self respect...

My personal take on my WW - she wont change.. Boundaries wouldnt make a difference.. So i'll never put myself in a position where i lose that self repect again.. Reading your sitch, you are in a similar sitch - question is.. do you really want the hassle.. look at it as a set of scales.. One side hassle and stress.. Self respect on the other.. To me , its important that the balance tips towards self respect.

[Josh71]

If you have read my thread at one point I said I'm fine for it to go either way. The realisation of what exactly divorce looks like is pretty good. I get to buy a new apartment or keep the house. I get kids less than half the week and can discipline them my way. I get time to myself and get to experiance the thrill of finding someome who respects boundaries, has secure attachment, and mature enough to take criticism and work through conflict.

Having said that, because I've seen what is possible with my W due to positive improvements made (yeah I'm taking credit here), I'm willing to stick it out. My plan now is to be more unavailable (GAL), keep enforcing all major boundaries, and to keep validating. But I'm also engaging an atty just in case.

I believe this is true detachment. At least it feels that way for me.

[unchien]

Unchien,

Re-read your post, as it was insightful...

And you seem to have done the research / reading up on this.. Appologies for the hyjack to Josh's post, but i do have a question about this statement...

1. NGS is real. Work on myself and fix it.
2. Abuse, BPD, NPD - the labels don't matter. The only thing that matters now is whether my W is willing to work on her baggage.

Label or not, i believe my WW emotionally abused me and suffered BPD / NPD... I walked into my first councilling session with a list of issues that i felt needed addressing. At this point i had never heard of cluster B disorders, BPD or Vunerable NPD ( i'd heard the term narsasist, but related it to a poser like Lex Luger from WWF when i was like 10 ), but VNPD had never entered my head.

It was the counciler who mentioned this before our second session from memory - This was based off what i had written down as issues in session 1.. Out of my 8 issues with my WW, 7 fall into the BPD / NPD box..

My WW had baggage... I see that now, and i definetly had / have NGS - Ive just reread my intro post on this board from January and i list 5 times when she overstepped the mark and i just ignored / bent over the accomidate...

But my point / question being, baggage is one thing... and if the WW is prepared to work on it, great - .. But from my own research and from everything ive read, it is very very hard to get people with BPD / VNPD to even accept they have issues, let alone work on it. The general advice online seems to be walk away from BPD, VNPD people...

thoughts on this ?

helpme - First of all, I am not a qualified mental health professional. I have a lot of history looking into this stuff but won't bore you.

Regarding your question -- isn't the classic NGS response to a challenging person to throw your hands up and walk away? Instead of deal with it constructively? I want to challenge you here not because I think you are wrong, but I think you should maybe dig a little deeper first. Perhaps your situation, regardless of outcome, is perfectly engineered to help you address your NGS. Or you could be completely right that your W is so toxic that you should truly walk away. I'm only suggesting that perhaps if you change yourself, you could change some of the dynamic with your W.

Also, you are falling into the trap that bothers me. "Here's the list of 9 BPD criteria, let's see how many my spouse satisfies." Well first of all, I know for a fact you yourself satisfy at least one of the 9: Fear of Abandonment. And by being on this forum, you likely have some trouble regulating your emotions and responses. I'm not accusing you of BPD, I'm only pointing out that all people can improve their emotional regulation and it will benefit you in all aspects of your life.

Yes, BPDs are known to walk away from treatment. I am considering firing our MC. Does that make me BPD? Wait, I am sticking with my IC... does that make me not BPD? But in IC, I am working on some DBT coping strategies, which were originally developed for BPD - am I again back to being BPD? Does it matter?

BPD in my mind is all about emotional regulation. Anyone can improve their emotional regulation, including NGs with their toxic shame.

Your W certainly does sound extreme. I am not denying that. I think the important question to consider is whether she is capable of change. BPDs can change. I think there are a few key steps to any change (not just BPD):

1. Accept there is a problem.
2. Stop the problematic behavior.
3. Address the underlying thoughts and attitudes that are driving the problematic behavior.

#1 is the "BPD hurdle" you read about online. #2 is good but not sufficient. #3 is what it's all about. Are they capable of true change? Well.. it takes a lot of work and motivation.

On the topic of emotional abuse -- there are truly awful people who you should run away from, full stop. But just like BPD, the term is bandied about often recklessly. Also, emotionally abusive relationships are often about the dynamic between two people and not just one individual being abusive and the other the poor victim. As a NG, I am sure I have enabled abusive behavior or even unknowingly encouraged it. Perhaps laying down some appropriate boundaries would reduce the symptoms. Do you feel counter-accused? Look at step #1 above. Again, these are meant to be light challenges just to get you thinking before jumping too quickly to conclusions - your initial conclusion may be completely right.

Anyways, all the labels are useful and can lead you to finding great material online. I just heavily resist the labeling aspect. Even the "NG" label is problematic. It's a good gateway into learning, just don't identify too heavily with the label.

Steve85 said it very succinctly - mostly this is about a spouse's emotional issues and baggage. And it is also about your own baggage as well. You have to decide whether or not you believe she is capable of change, and be at peace with your decision, but also investigate your own role and any personal changes you feel are necessary.

One last comment on walking away from BPD. My mom has some sort of a cluster B BPD/NPD mix of issues. About three years ago she severed our relationship. It is really sad to see my kids grow up and no longer know their grandparents. I have accepted it, and feel relief not dealing with the anxiety and constant stress of trying to manage that relationship. But... in the back of my mind, sometimes I feel like I have taken the easy way out just accepting this. Perhaps I can try to salvage something. Perhaps I could set some healthy boundaries up front, even ask my parents to go to counseling themselves, and try to make something work, because they are family after all. Maybe it wouldn't work. Maybe regardless of the outcome, it would be a step in healing my NGS...

[sandi2]

You guys might want to read OrangeK's first few threads. His WW met some descriptions of the B cluster personality. OrangeK had a terrible time accepting it and detaching, and still has to work on it, I think. Anyway, it might be enlightening to see his own struggles while dealing with her.

Seems to me NGS and BPD are a natural combo like anxious/avoidant attachment.

You might be right to an extent, IDK. I said some time ago that WW's tend to have some narcissistic traits. I'm not saying all WW are narcissists. However, I think when their wayward behavior spikes, they certainly imitate a woman with NPD. That's just MHO.

I observed for quite a while the LBH's who would come & go on the DB board. Back then, I devoted many hours every week to the board, and kept up with many threads. That's when it became obvious to me that the majority of the threads I read from LBH's all had something in common, other than a W who wanted out of the M. These H's showed tendencies of being a Nice-Guy and seem to be M to women who showed their own brand of similarities. Now I won't say every single man with NGS on the board has a WW, but IMHO, the majority do. In my own mind, I haven't come to the full conclusion that all WW's have a H with NGS, but I think it's more common.......which makes sense when you consider the foundation for her wayward mindset. She needs him to be stronger than she is, and has to respect him in order to love him.

It may have been your thread I've previously made this statement, so forgive me for repeating. I believe it is so difficult for the H to accept that his W is wayward (mainly, b/c he does not fully understand the mindset behind it) that he tries to label her having hormonal imbalance, a MLC, or is a WAW, has a personality disorder, or any number of issues from her past. In many cases, it's true.......but in many other cases it is waywardness. It's a woman who is M to a man who has been too weak (for whatever reason) too nice, and has spoiled her by allowing her to pout, threaten, manipulate, play the victim, or roughshod her way through their M. It's all about her, and she calls the shots. Waywardness is serious, but it's totally within her power to change whenever she wants. The key is her "want to". It is not a mental disease, although it might resemble someone being possessed by demons at times. Her wayward mindset does not develop overnight, and by the time she has dropped the bomb (if she does), her H wonders who in the world is this woman.

Please don't misunderstand and think I am trying to discredit anyone who has mental issues or emotional problems. Goodness knows there are many people today who suffer with all sorts of issues......and their spouse/family suffers, too. I'm simply using this post to express my personal observations during the years I've been here and trying to learn and share with others.

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I can relate but on a less severe scale. Here are the boundaries I let her get away with:

Pick the house we bought together
Control all aspects of raising new born
Let her complain that not supporting her with a new born was the worst thing that ever happened to her
Let her remind me at least 10x a year that not supporting her with a new born was the worst thing that happened to her
Go to free R counselling which was totally ineffective (duh)
Go to govt backed R counselling which was ineffective, but lie that I'm a lowly office worker to save $
Let her have sex with OM because I obviously had no sex drive
Let her violate the don't ask don't tell boundary on sex with OM because her OM moved overseas and now she wants to put effort back to having sex
Sleep in another room off and on for years because "she needs space"
Let her pout in front of my mother and call her a snake for nothing other than being around
Ask me to lie on taxes and say we're separated in order to get govt benefits
Let her shout at kids
Let her blame kids for her emotions
Let her say within earshot of daughter that she sometimes hates her
Almost let her move family out of house, put possessions in storage, and move into in-laws to make $ on Air BnB during XMas
Tried to rationalisate a Big D property settlement where she gets the apartment, kids get family house in trust, I get SFA

Josh, I am trying to understand what you mean when you say, "Boundaries I let her get away with". Yes, you allowed her to do these actions without any consequences, apparently. But were they boundaries you already had in place? I kind of doubt it. I think you knew it was wrong to allow it, and especially in hindsight, you see what a terrible mistake it was to let her have complete reign of your lives. You may not have agreed in your heart, but you went along with whatever she did, even if you tried to just avoid confrontation......it put your stamp of approval on her actions! Boundaries without consequences, are not boundaries at all.

A woman who does not respect her H will get worse in her behavior, not better. Her behavior will never improve, until he decides to be a alpha male and take charge and put a stop to this inexcusable behavior under his own roof and within his own relationships. None of those actions on that list can be excused away by labeling it as a disorder or whatever. She sounds extremely spoiled and has been allowed to treat her family in very bad, selfish and immature ways. Yes, you are to blame for allowing it, b/c you are the head of the home/family and there were no boundaries set at all, from what I can tell. You should have said "no", and put a stop to it. You just let her do anything she wanted, whether it was ethically or legally wrong and/or emotionally damaging to your relationship and your kids. When a woman is allowed to continue this type of selfish and just horrible behavior, it may eventually lead her into a downward spiral until she develops some type of mental issues as the results, but frankly.......all these behaviors above spells one thing, WAYWARD. She may have been wayward when you married her, IDK, but she is certainly worse now!

Josh, do you have a plan of action?