Well spoken. Yes, they are not boundaries. Just fear of stepping up. And my observation having stepped up is that it works. For now W is in a bit of shock that she isn't getting her way. And ruminating on the consequences.
My plan: GAL. I'm being a bit more scarce at home and plan to ramp it up. Still spend some time with W, but only if she asks AND I have no plans Still silently take care of cleaning house, kids school prep Get an atty to understand my options but not to escalate unless W does Go to gym more Plan potential R topics that might come up and think how to respond like Steve Stand up to shouting at kids by enforcing a boundary with consequences Stand up to interference Slow or no response to SMS Wait for her to initiate action, be it moving out or legal Cook a bit on weekends even though I'm terrible Continue to be positive and happy (I am anyway) Be open that things can go either way
ATM she's in a talkative friendly state. Went with kids to visit a friend's farm for 24 hours. She even is quick to invite me the minute I ask when she's back. But I said I'm doing my own thing.
My mental state is that I have no fear. Of her, or the future.
One question for all is, she constantly comments about being tired of "doing everything". Not true. Was true, years ago, not now. I dont respond usually although sometime I will validate. Thoughts?
I know Sandi talks alot about detachment strategies and Steve talks alot about alpha male strategies for WW who are actively in an EA or PA. For a WW who has bluntly said it's over and I'm single I'm wondering how hard of an approach to take. I have no evidence of anything and sure if I look, anxiety could suggest anything. Let's assume no.
I talk about ramping things up and think if she's my roommate (which is the logical conclusion since shes single in her eyes) then I should:
Minimise contact with inlaws (hard! I'll organise GAL so they conflict) Dont do her laundry Always do family things Book lots of GAL time away Don't initiate conversations Minimal phone contact and sms are short Minimal time together watching tv (i feel she's lonely and when in the mood she asks) Don't ask about her nights out even if she insists they are with her gay friend All bad behaviour is promptly addressed All complaining is validated, but nothing more No compliments, no initiating physical contact
Right now things are stable. And at the risk of sounding sexist, surprising since she is on her period (she initiates most conflict during this time of month).
Josh_T - OK so... the forum is going to tend to give you hard-line advice. Most of your plan sounds find except it all sounds very strict "Don't do this, No that". Just make sure you do this with a PMA. Let me try to rewrite them:
I notice you mentioned your W complained about being tired of doing everything.
Originally Posted by Josh_T
I know Sandi talks alot about detachment strategies and Steve talks alot about alpha male strategies for WW who are actively in an EA or PA. For a WW who has bluntly said it's over and I'm single I'm wondering how hard of an approach to take. I have no evidence of anything and sure if I look, anxiety could suggest anything. Let's assume no.
I talk about ramping things up and think if she's my roommate (which is the logical conclusion since shes single in her eyes) then I should:
Minimise contact with inlaws (hard! I'll organise GAL so they conflict) Dont do her laundry Always do family things Book lots of GAL time away Don't initiate conversations Minimal phone contact and sms are short Minimal time together watching tv (i feel she's lonely and when in the mood she asks) Don't ask about her nights out even if she insists they are with her gay friend All bad behaviour is promptly addressed All complaining is validated, but nothing more No compliments, no initiating physical contact
Right now things are stable. And at the risk of sounding sexist, surprising since she is on her period (she initiates most conflict during this time of month).
Josh_T - Sorry the above post was an accidental post before I finished
OK so... the forum is going to tend to give you hard-line advice. Most of your plan sounds find except it all sounds very strict "Don't do this, No that". Just make sure you do this with a PMA. Let me try to rewrite them:
Be friendly when she initiates conversation, mostly validate, no R talk, limit phone/text to logistics Let her live her life without interference Live my own life, own my own happiness Set boundaries with appropriate consequences
For some soft-line advice - I may post more later. I hesitate because it would put focus back on your W, and most of us LBS's need to be over-corrected hard in the opposite direction. All I will say now is I don't believe her "doing everything" complaint... because you addressed it, and it changed nothing. I've been through this. What happened later is I found out there were deeper issues at play, and I think it is valid for me to at least consider addressing the issues in a way that respects my own values (i.e., I don't just try to solve my W's problems). Otherwise I will bring the same baggage into my future.
Thanks unchien. Much simpler view of what I need to do. Feel free to elaborate. Don't worry about focus on W. Any insight on me or W is helpful.
Funny how right off the bat today I didn't live up to the sms bit. She was to be out all evening but something changed. She sms that she'd be home in 20 and I said I'd be at a restaurant with the kids. She attempted to divert me home so she could make dinner but I wasn't going to have a bar of it. She arrived at tbe restaurant, complained about various things in her life, complained she wasn't eating because it was junk food (Italian pizza), took a small swipe at me to say I know you wouldn't cook (I said they are my responsibility and it's up to me to feed them as I see fit). We left the restaurant and the kids wanted to drive home with me. She actually looked dejected.
I'm in my room, avoiding, and will be going out soon. It's dangerous to be around her tonight as there's a high risk of depressive R talk.
It's strange because I know she's on her period and usually her moods are dreadful and she tends to start fights. None of that so far. Taking a hard look at her future? Keeping me happy so she has a stable life until big D? Who knows. I'm over analysing. Whatever. I feel free not worrying about her well being.
So I spoke too soon. W decides that she's bored and calls a friend to go out to dinner. I guess she didn't want to cook. I'm to look after the kids, which I know. Bath time after movie. But she starts drawing the water and tells me to put the youngest in the bath. "The movie is over already?" She says "no". "Well I thought bath was after movie?" I say. "Fine you do it then!". She stops the bath and storms off.
So what exactly is going on here? She's lonely and mad that she didn't have the dinner she imaged with the family because her dinner plan not eventuate? Then she's upset because I go to my room and ignore her? I actually think this is it. Her poor attempt at a fight is actually much lamer than what I'm used to. Is that just an attempt to hurt me?
I do think something is going on in her head. This morning she locked herself in her room until I left with my S to go shopping. Probably crying because her phone was on the kitchen table. At least she isn't taking it out on me and keeping it contained. I'm just waiting for the "I can't live with you anymore" line or the "I need to sell the house". It's so true rule #32 "Do not believe anything they say and 50% of what they do. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared". My W, at the end of the day, hasn't done anything other than move to a different bedroom. Only action thus far . . .
Forgot to mention EA. She wanted to travel by herself post BD. I said yes and foolishly took time off to take care of kids. I wish I set that boundary but I didn't know you all here then. Anyway.
She came back and I was still hoping we could reconcile. In one of her angry monologues she said she didn't love me amd she was in love with someone she met overseas.
So, there's the affair. Is she still in contact with OM, or do you know?
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My plan:
GAL. I'm being a bit more scarce at home and plan to ramp it up. Great! Fill up your calendar, so you will always "have plans". Still spend some time with W, but only if she asks AND I have no plans Good, but I think you'll need to find the strength to tell her you have already made plans. Still silently take care of cleaning house, kids school prep Get an atty to understand my options but not to escalate unless W does Go to gym more You have to schedule and make it one of your priorities, or you'll never have time for it. Plan potential R topics that might come up and think how to respond like Steve Stand up to shouting at kids by enforcing a boundary with consequences Okay, good! What will be her consequences? You have to know in advance, not wait until the shouting begins. Stand up to interference How? Slow or no response to SMS Are you tough enough to send no response when she asks no questions? Wait for her to initiate action, be it moving out or legal Cook a bit on weekends even though I'm terrible Okay, but what is your reason? Continue to be positive and happy (I am anyway) Be open that things can go either way
Looks good.
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ATM she's in a talkative friendly state. Went with kids to visit a friend's farm for 24 hours. She even is quick to invite me the minute I ask when she's back. But I said I'm doing my own thing.
Great!
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One question for all is, she constantly comments about being tired of "doing everything". Not true. Was true, years ago, not now. I dont respond usually although sometime I will validate. Thoughts?
Humm, I wonder who would do the work if she lived alone? As I told another poster yesterday, I don't have a lot of empathy for spoiled women. It sounds as if you are already carrying the burden of keeping the house clean, tending to the kids' needs, etc. IDK if she is hinting for you to do more, so she'll have more playtime, or if she needs to take B12 shot. Maybe you could say, "What do you suggest is a more equal division of chores?"
I've had to work all my married life, raising kids, taking care of everything except some of the major outside jobs. The only time my H offered to cook or sweep a floor was if I was sick in bed. He would watch the kids, as long as they stayed in room with the tv. A few times, I felt sorry for myself and sometimes I resented that he didn't help at all. It was usually when I was so tired when I would come home from my job, I would be on the verge of tears. That's tired! His excuse was that his work was more physically draining than mine. In today's young families, most men know they need to help the working wife/mom b/c of the fast pace in which we live. I am against a man having to take care of the entire home & kids when he has a WW who is a SAHM and she is spoiled, lazy, selfish, with a sense of entitlement. There's a difference in sharing the workload, and doing everything just b/c she complains. That's JMHO.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Don't know if she is still in contact. My feeling is not or not much because I don't see her holed up in her room like before. However if I look at her provacation where she attempts to reassert her position as single, it's possible she's still in contact. Pushing me away to feel better and ease her mind. Honestly I don't know, I don't want to get worked up about it. She is wayward, her mind is all over the place. And the EA is a completely unrealistic fantasy. True or mit it changes nothing.
We had an agreement where I cook on weekends. Sometimes she breaks that plan to do something she likes. Then will turn around and say I'm not honouring my agreement. She's about to do it tomorrow. I plan let her cook if she wants but if she later says I've dropped the ball, I'll bloody remind her that this reaction is manipulative.
To be fair she cooks on weekdays and does some cleaning. It wasn't always split so she would harbour resentment over that. But I do feel her complaining is a proxy for her unhappiness. What I'm saying is that housework is split and her nature is just to complaim no matter what I do.
Last night she outGALed me with two last minute plans. She must have been feeling low. I had a great evening with kids so happy about that.
SMS, well so far no im not strong enough. I'm going to try. But her nose will be way out of joint. Oh well.
I saw on another thread you talk about family time as cake eating? I get the point about family vacays as I just came bsck from an aweful one. But can you elaborate? It it the case, only things for kids, nothing else? Or are you advocating no family outings with WW? Like no family dinners out? That wouldn't make sense because I understood kid time and family time were the one thing we should put focus on. Or maybe that was LRT where i read that.
Honestly I don't know, I don't want to get worked up about it. She is wayward, her mind is all over the place. And the EA is a completely unrealistic fantasy. True or mit it changes nothing.
My reason for asking if she's still in contact with OM, is due to its addictive nature.
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We had an agreement where I cook on weekends. Sometimes she breaks that plan to do something she likes. Then will turn around and say I'm not honouring my agreement. She's about to do it tomorrow. I plan let her cook if she wants but if she later says I've dropped the ball, I'll bloody remind her that this reaction is manipulative.
Yep! That's what a man should do when his W tries to pull this mess. Call her out on it, and use a firm voice. Get up from the table and leave the house, but don't pretend she didn't say anything. The more you choose to "overlook" this behavior, the more she'll do it. I think if she said something about me not honoring my agreement, I'd have to say, "Maybe I don't understand. Why don't you explain honoring agreements?" Then let her hang herself when she starts talking about doing what one promises or agrees. She may not even make the connection with her own promises to love and honor. WW's are usually so full of themselves they don't see the irony of their own words.
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What I'm saying is that housework is split and her nature is just to complaim no matter what I do.
Did she act this way before you married her? It is an unattractive attitude and very negative habit. I think you might be just too nice, and let her get away with it. You try to pick up the slack and do whatever to make her happy, but she doesn't stop with the complaining. Have you ever imitated her? Let her see what it's like to live with a chronic complainer. Beat her at her own game by extremely complaining until she can't get a word in edgewise. So what if she doesn't like? Who cares, if she is driving everyone nuts.
Perhaps she doesn't know, or believe, that everyone is responsible for their own happiness.
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Last night she outGALed me with two last minute plans.
And pray tell, Mr. Nice Guy, how did she outGALed you? Look, she may be queen of complaining & manipulating, but no more so than your too nice-guy ways. You justify it like all the other nice guy newcomers who are stuck at home keeping the kids, b/c WW outGALed them.......and you are JUST SO HAPPY ABOUT IT, b/c you enjoy your kids. That's great Josh, but you let her outGALed you (if I'm understanding this language correctly). You really think she was feeling so low is why she outGALed you? People who are truly depressed/low aren't usually out GAL. No more "last minute plans" that work keeping you home. Keep your calendar full so you'll always have plans, and outGAL her.
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SMS, well so far no im not strong enough. I'm going to try. But her nose will be way out of joint. Oh well.
Will you listen to me? When you reach the place that it doesn't bother you that her nose is way out of joint, it will change your life.......and I'm pretty sure it will change your MR. The problem is that you are always trying to accommodate your WW. In a relationship where both spouses are unselfish and caring toward each other, that's fine. But that's not your MR. Your W is wayward, and one thing waywards have in common are their men have NGS, and have spoiled them. By spoiling, I mean you let her get away with this crap. Why do you feel you have to carry her around on a feather pillow? It's b/c she's made you feel responsible for her unhappiness! That's how she works, and will continue working you until the day you get fed up and decide you don't have to take it anymore. So, get over it, and start new behavior patterns. ((hugs))
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I saw on another thread you talk about family time as cake eating? I get the point about family vacays as I just came bsck from an aweful one. But can you elaborate? It it the case, only things for kids, nothing else? Or are you advocating no family outings with WW? Like no family dinners out? That wouldn't make sense because I understood kid time and family time were the one thing we should put focus on. Or maybe that was LRT where i read that.
In my opinion, the most effective method to use with a WW is to drop her. I have been here long enough to know that extremely nice guys are not likely to drop her right away. I feel that's where they make their mistake, by taking too long and taking so much disrespect that it destroys any chance of reconciliation. So, I will break this down more by suggesting that whenever the couple is sleeping in separate bedrooms, calling themselves in-house separated, or physically separated........the H should immediately stop family activities or family outings. For one thing, if she is wayward and they are separated, she's probably in some type of an affair or GGW activity. Therefore, he really needs to dump her for the affair and her lack of respect.
As I said in the other thread, the WW will use the M for whatever benefits her most. Vacations, family outings, holiday and special events, dinner with the relatives, shopping together, having her H escort her to social or public gatherings..........these are benefits for her. She isn't thinking about working on the M or getting closer to him! When she doesn't want him along, she has no problem with letting him know, or ditching him at home. But, he continues to tell himself that all this family togetherness will bring them closer together. Maybe in the movies, but in real life with a wayward W, it doesn't work. She has lost her respect and feelings of love for him, but it can turn around if he is strong enough to stop putting up with her waywardness. I use the word waywardness in that sentence, to cover several things a WW can develop over the period of her wayward heart/mindset.
Family activities may be defined as when they sit down for dinner at home. I have no problem with it, just as long as the WW is not showing disrespect toward her H. While certain aspects of the home life may carry on (until separation/divorce, or reconciliation), they don't have to attend other type of family activities. Sometimes there may be a rare exception, like the children's birthday party, b/c if the parents aren't separated then both of them need to be with the kids for their birthday celebration. However, if they are separated, then they should have two or more birthday celebrations. I may be forgetting something, b/c this off the top of my head as I type, but maybe the general idea has been explained.
It's always hard when children are involved. I've read so many posts where a LBH will say he is doing it for his kids (whatever "it" may be). I have a hard time believing it's all for the kids, knowing how the NGS operates. Is it better if the kids go for a while without these "family" activities, or for the rest of their lives? Is it better to miss Christmas at the grandparents one year, or forever? People can survive missing vacations or eating dinner out.
These are not some random thoughts I've had. For a long time, I have observed both personal and impersonal situations involving a WW, whether with kids or without kids. The times where the MR was reconciled and continued successfully, involved this tough love that I've tried to explain above.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
So I spoke too soon. W decides that she's bored and calls a friend to go out to dinner. I guess she didn't want to cook. I'm to look after the kids, which I know. Bath time after movie. But she starts drawing the water and tells me to put the youngest in the bath. "The movie is over already?" She says "no". "Well I thought bath was after movie?" I say. "Fine you do it then!". She stops the bath and storms off.
So what exactly is going on here? She's lonely and mad that she didn't have the dinner she imaged with the family because her dinner plan not eventuate? Then she's upset because I go to my room and ignore her? I actually think this is it. Her poor attempt at a fight is actually much lamer than what I'm used to. Is that just an attempt to hurt me?
It's a power struggle of who is in charge, and she intends to be on top. Combine that with her thoughts mainly on herself, and you have a very unattractive female. She is impetuous.
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I do think something is going on in her head. This morning she locked herself in her room until I left with my S to go shopping. Probably crying because her phone was on the kitchen table. At least she isn't taking it out on meand keeping it contained. I'm just waiting for the "I can't live with you anymore" line or the "I need to sell the house".
The words in bold speaks loudly to me. Has this mostly been the personality you've seen in your W since marrying her?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Maybe you could say, "What do you suggest is a more equal division of chores?" 