Obviously there's a whole history with your friend and his W. Maybe she realized what she was missing.
In my situation, I refuse to reconcile without my W changing as well. Even though I know another path to possible reconciliation would be to become overly apologetic, accept all blame, and buy into her narrative 100%.
Obviously there's a whole history with your friend and his W. Maybe she realized what she was missing.
In my situation, I refuse to reconcile without my W changing as well. Even though I know another path to possible reconciliation would be to become overly apologetic, accept all blame, and buy into her narrative 100%.
I have to assume there was *some* change, although I don't know what. And I agree - while there are many things I'd have done differently, the issues that caused our S were not 100% on me, and therefore any sustainable reconciliation would have to be the fruit of both of us accepting fault and making changes.
This shouldn't be a surprise, but in MC, we've definitely both articulated areas in which we contributed to the S, so it's not as if WAW is putting all of the blame on me or anything like that.
Felt more down today than I've felt in a few weeks now. Nothing precipitated it - in fact, I had a good weekend of working out, seeing friends, and generally doing my thing. I think maybe some things that I was avoiding internalizing are starting to sink in: this is still the first mile of a marathon, WAW is moved out and living an independent life, and things will never be the way they were. Conceptually I knew all of those things, but they're definitely hitting me harder as of late.
MC tomorrow, and for those who haven't been following, we've been in touch weekly to discuss logistics and finances. All very pleasant and cordial, all initiated by her and professional/friendly from me.
Not that I want to keep throwing blame on myself, but I think a large part of how I'm feeling is that all of that cordialness and all of the rapport we easily fall into when we do meet just leaves me going back home, just as unsure as ever as what's next. It's in these moments when I feel the most mentally weak and my thoughts go to really dark places: is she happy on her own? Does she miss me at all?
I know I can only control my own actions and thoughts, so that's what I'm trying to focus on. But it does feel very contradictory at times: NMMNG would say to set boundaries and not allow yourself to be walked on, DB would say to remove all pressure. Doing a 180 would have me make sure I'm there for her when she needs it and show that I can be reliable and responsible, DB would say to detach and GAL.
It's very confusing. I'm only one month in, so I'm allowing myself to feel that confusion, and sadness that we're at this point.
It's in these moments when I feel the most mentally weak and my thoughts go to really dark places: is she happy on her own? Does she miss me at all?
Yup, we feel detached most of the time, then have these moments where we realize how far away we really are. I was feeling pretty low yesterday myself.
Originally Posted by SteveS
I know I can only control my own actions and thoughts, so that's what I'm trying to focus on. But it does feel very contradictory at times: NMMNG would say to set boundaries and not allow yourself to be walked on, DB would say to remove all pressure. Doing a 180 would have me make sure I'm there for her when she needs it and show that I can be reliable and responsible, DB would say to detach and GAL.
It's very confusing. I'm only one month in, so I'm allowing myself to feel that confusion, and sadness that we're at this point.
My take is that all these various programs provide some nice frameworks or guidelines with which to approach a situation. In particular when we are hopelessly struggling and need a lifeline. At some point, we need to graduate from school and fully integrate these lessons. In these parts we call this AMOAFWL.
What is AMOAFWL? I would say it's a fully self-differentiated man, confident he can handle any situation, confident in all aspects of himself - emotional, spiritual, mental, physical. Just able to handle whatever comes his way. Unafraid to state his needs, not dependent on others to meet them.
AMOAFWL does not ask "Does this follow Rule #32? And does that conflict with NMMNG advice?" He just knows at a very deep level what to do, without needing to ruminate.
I am an engineer by training. We learn the rules and equations in school. Everything is ordered. Then we go out in real life and have to apply this knowledge. There are ALL KINDS of exceptions, and times where one rule should be used instead of another. And it all comes down to experience and instinct a lot of the time.
This is all a long-winded way of saying I understand what you mean. The confusion is a good thing. You are trying to absorb all these different lessons but they are confusing and conflicting.
For instance, I went to MC today and unloaded some emotional baggage. Here is how I would evaluate my actions along the different axes:
- NMMNG (+): Great. Admit to past issues, how I have changed, set boundaries, be assertive, no expectations. - DB (-): Terrible. Made myself vulnerable. Added pressure by sharing feelings. - 180 (+): Sharing feelings without becoming overly emotional is a positive change.
So depending how I view things, I either made a huge mistake, had a triumphant breakthrough, or somewhere in between. The fact is... it doesn't really matter. I can feel the internal progress that I am making, I know I will be better off in a future relationship, whether with my W or somebody new. And most importantly, I had zero expectations about how my W would react, and would have been okay with any reaction.
The one thing I did not do is bring up "I want to work on the MR" which would have been unnecessary pressure I think.
One other thing that has helped me a lot is simplifying things. I have a simple list in my head -- here are my 3 primary issues, here are the 3 primary issues I think my W has that contributed to our MR failure. Any more than 3 feels like complaining, and unrealistic to fix. Then I try to work on a plan to work on those issues:
Me: 1. Fear of losing the relationship (NMMNG, classic DB begging/pleading behavior) 2. Lack of emotional awareness and regulation (again NMMNG) 3. Handing over power of my own happiness to another person (ditto)
W: 1. Communication: Withholding resentment then performing a toxic dump and retreating 2. Conflict resolution: Not willing to work together to problem-solve when issues arise 3. Trust and intimacy (long-term, no way to work on these short-term)
That's it. Fix all 6 of those things and I think we can have a happy MR 2.0. I know I'm going to work on my Top 3. My W - well, if she doesn't, I don't really think it will work out anyways. As of now I think she is blind to her contribution.
Now I've identified the Top 3, what am I going to do about them? Lots of meditation and working on making myself happy. (Nobody can be happy with me if I'm not happy myself). Hey wait... that's what GAL is! And PMA! Exactly! GAL and PMA are generic prescriptions, we force ourselves at first because we are clueless, desperate LBS's. Then at some point, GAL and PMA should become automatic because we recognize the benefit, and we start to tailor our GAL/PMA choices individually. I've learned I like woodworking, I like the sense of accomplishment. Going for a walk - yeah it's okay, not as good for me.
I hijacked your thread here but I really just wanted to share how I am trying to approach things. I'm trying to zero in on the changes I'd like to see in myself, and secondarily, the changes I would like to see in my W if we are to work things out. It is a very helpful exercise for me to think about the issues I would like to see my W resolve... it takes back some of the power I have unhealthily granted her as a NG.
Again sorry for the hijack but I am thinking about this stuff a lot lately and how to push through it. If you hit on anything that is working for you, I'd love to hear about it! Meditation started really clicking for me this week, in a way it never has even though I have dabbled for years.
Me: 1. Fear of losing the relationship (NMMNG, classic DB begging/pleading behavior) 2. Lack of emotional awareness and regulation (again NMMNG) 3. Handing over power of my own happiness to another person (ditto)
I reckon 95% of men on these boards have the same top three in various orders.
I hijacked your thread here but I really just wanted to share how I am trying to approach things. I'm trying to zero in on the changes I'd like to see in myself, and secondarily, the changes I would like to see in my W if we are to work things out. It is a very helpful exercise for me to think about the issues I would like to see my W resolve... it takes back some of the power I have unhealthily granted her as a NG.
Again sorry for the hijack but I am thinking about this stuff a lot lately and how to push through it. If you hit on anything that is working for you, I'd love to hear about it! Meditation started really clicking for me this week, in a way it never has even though I have dabbled for years.
No, I appreciate it - and you're right, we're birds of the same feather. I'm also trained as an engineer and work in tech, so I'm very much of the mindset of "do x, observe y change"; that just isn't how relationships work, and most certainly not in our cases right now.
I went through some passages that I highlighted in DB and NMMNG tonight and now I'm feeling a bit better. Right now I'm far too outcome-oriented, namely that of working on the MR and moving towards reconciliation with WAW. If that's my focus, then consciously or subconsciously I'm going to do things to affect change towards that goal, and be emotionally upset when I don't see any movement.
Unfortunately for the both of us, we're at the hardest step: giving space while not giving up. We need to repeat it until we're blue in the face - we can only control our destiny, we are responsible for our own happiness, we are the agents of creating the life that we want. This requires effort, assistance (meditation, IC, posting her for support, etc.) and time, but I have confidence that these are mindsets that will become second nature provided we stick with it.
In the meantime, I think the best place is to own and accept the confusion as a part of the healing and growth processes. We've been through emotional trauma and we're doing a hard reset on the things we've always known and the patterns we've always used to get by.
Put another way: if I take five steps forward and two steps back this week, that's not cause to beat myself up for the two missteps, it's cause to acknowledge the overall three steps I've headed in the right direction. That applies to all of us.
MC tomorrow, and I'm sure another hour at a coffee shop to drill into finances and work together on a separation agreement at some point this week. One day at a time.
Went to MC today with WAW; we typically meet a half-hour beforehand at a nearby coffee shop to say hello, catch up a little and walk over together. We don't explicitly plan it - we both are OCD about being on time, the NYC subways can't be trusted, and she'll typically text "I'm a place X if you're nearby" and we meet up. I don't assign any larger meaning to this, but it's nice.
All in all, a good session. I'd characterize the sessions as treading water - we're working on issues from the MR in a somewhat indirect way: being emotionally open with each other, that sort of thing. Today we talked about how we're communicating and working through outstanding issues relative to the S, for which she was grateful that we're able to treat each other with love and respect and deal with tough decisions amicably and as a team. We're both children of ugly divorces and I'm very thankful for this as well. As you may have gathered from my previous posts, while I am happy we still have a strong rapport, I need to be careful not to confuse this or conflate it with something more.
We also talked about how we're emotionally dealing with the S; she said that she's sad and covering it up by overworking herself. This does not surprise me in the least, as that's how she's basically been for the past six months leading up to the BD. Lots of volunteering, lots of activities, running away from the fact that things weren't working. At least she recognizes it, I guess. I said exactly what I've said in here: this isn't what I want, but I'm using the time to work on myself, take a hard look at the way I acted, read, reconnect with friends, and generally work on being the best version of myself I can be. We both go to IC religiously, so I know she is working on things too - and I do think in time she'll allow herself to really feel what she's feeling.
Near the end I mentioned that I wanted to talk about dating during the S. I'm paraphrasing, but I said that while I recognize that it is impossible to set a boundary around things like timing, there are aspects of this that for me are non-negotiable. I trust that WAW has not had an affair, and I trust that she did not BD and instantiate this to chase after someone. But given the power dynamic that is inherent when one person leaves (and when the other implicitly wants to reconcile, even if it goes unsaid), it can lead to a situation where the one leaving the relationship explores things knowing that the LBS will always be a Plan B. I refuse to be in that situation, and said as such.
So, where it all nets out..good, I guess. Work in progress as always, but I'm learning to be more emotionally articulate, to feel comfortable stating my needs, and making clear that I'm using this time not to just sit around moping but to address my issues such that my next relationship will be better, with WAW or not.
Good update Steve, I like your progress. I will challenge you to not assume anything, and I say this in reference to:
Originally Posted by SteveS
I trust that WAW has not had an affair, and I trust that she did not BD and instantiate this to chase after someone.
Have no expectations. once BD hits, the rules are out the window and WAS's will twist things to justify their actions. I also quoted this b/c you used the word "instantiate". Bravo. Who knew that an engineer would be capable of such obscure wording?
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Have no expectations. once BD hits, the rules are out the window and WAS's will twist things to justify their actions. I also quoted this b/c you used the word "instantiate". Bravo. Who knew that an engineer would be capable of such obscure wording?
Fair, that's a good point. What I should say is that I've got no evidence that points to it, and she explicitly said after I had set my boundary of never being a Plan B that it would not be an issue and that it was the furthest thing from her mind. I trust it on the basis of that, but can absolutely see how things in my situation might not be particularly black and white.
And ha, thank you. That's a word that's been kicking around back there since my coding days, mostly as a programming reference to an object being created. Nowadays it's all meetings...
