How much time do you get with the kids? If it is less than 40% and you feel you are drifting apart from your kids, why are you not negotiating for more time with them?
Get as much personal work done when you don't have the kids and when you do have them dedicate a LOT more time to them without distractions. That way even if you have them for only 40% of the time, you can effectively still spend 60-70% of the time you used to spend with them when they lived with you 100% of the time
Thanks for the response! I was just logging on for a long journal post (to follow):
Right now I am doing every other weekend Friday-Tuesday - so roughly 30%. And 50/50 for holidays and time off.
My situation was dicey just a month ago getting ANY time (without having to go to court).
I actually really love the time with my kids right now, it is higher quality time than I had before. No stress about having to give my W a break, do house chores, etc. Now, we have fun, and then when they leave I clean up the mess. The hardest part is not having 1:1 time with any one of the kids -- it's virtually impossible with the ages of my 3 to really spend time with any one of them individually. Even when the MR was better, this was a challenge.
It's mostly the long breaks between seeing them that hurts. It would be nice to have a weeknight during my off weeks, but that may be overly disruptive.
In the meantime, I think I should settle into this routine and see how well it is working, and consider if any changes would work better.
Kids are so amazingly resilient, moreso than their parents. D3 told me about two dreams she had this morning. The first dream was that she missed me and thought I was leaving her. She gave me a sad pouty face. I gave her a big hug and said "I would never do that, I love you!" and she smiled. I thought, man this is really a rough situation. Then I asked, "What was the second dream about?" And she yelled out happily "Pirates!!"
The reality of limbo is becoming clearer, after MC last week in particular. My W identifies very strongly with emotional abuse, and is not ready to work on this in couples therapy. She has agreed she needs to work on this in IC.
For the past week plus I have been feeling very detached, almost to the point of indifference sometimes. I wonder what is the dividing line between loving detachment and indifference -- because indifference to me implies that I am completely done. I'm not there yet, but sometimes feel close.
Then I received one of MWD's emails this weekend. She mentioned that this is divorce BUSTING. Unless there is abuse involved, everything we do is about NOT GETTING D'd. I know that us folks on the forum are usually in dire circumstances, but it was definitely a small 2x4 reminder to me about why I am doing what I am doing.
And now I'm thrown for a loop. And I'm back trying to simplify things in my head, which helps me avoid ruminating.
I crossed the line sometimes in the past. I've talked about this at length in my threads. I've read several books about emotional and physical abuse (from both the abuser and abused perspective), talked in IC at length about it, even called a hotline at one point. Pre-BD I was in a very dark place, feeling labeled and like a terrible human being.
What happened with me is I could not deal with my emotions. I would get anxious about our relationship, and then seek affection, and feel spurned and rejected, get frustrated, and start acting passive aggressively. I wouldn't call my W names, I wouldn't physically approach her, but just that atmosphere of pressure was enough to set us down this path. I accept my role. Now I am at a place where I *can* deal with those emotions, I continue to learn and grow, and I feel really good about dealing with my issues.
But we both brought our issues into this, it is not all on me.
My W works in the mental health field. She is a smart cookie. If she truly felt abused and terrified, she would have filed an RO and filed for D. She *knows* she is bringing individual trust issues into this. Frankly, this is *exactly* what DB is all about. By following DB principles and focusing on my own well-being, I gave her the time and space and freedom to start to have some insight. I can't control it, but had I done anything else I'm sure things would have fallen apart quickly.
It feels like an incredibly difficult place though. Is it worth continuing? If the path to R involves me being contrite and repairing my abusive ways, well, that is not a healthy narrative. If the path to R involves me handling my emotional regulation issues, and my W becoming aware of her own issues and contributions to the erosion of our MR, then I can continue.
I guess it's pretty simple -- the continued use of terms like "abuse" make me feel like continuing this MR would be toxic on so many levels. There is an unhealthy power dynamic at play, for both of us.
Anyways, for now I'm okay with staying the course and letting my W work on sorting out what she wants to do next. Long-term I can't see how we can ever piece this thing together if the overarching storyline is abused/abuser.
[quote=MLCxH] Right now I am doing every other weekend Friday-Tuesday - so roughly 30%. And 50/50 for holidays and time off.
My situation was dicey just a month ago getting ANY time (without having to go to court).
I can understand why you feel concerned with the long gap between possessions. Have you given any thought to making it Fri-Mon and then getting them on Mon of the next week? Or at the least getting time with them for a couple of hours for dinner on a weekday in the week that you don't have them?
Regarding the custody time, what does your attorney say about your chances if you do go to court? If you try to change their routine after several months it may actually be more disruptive for them than trying to establish a new routine now that works long term?
Originally Posted by unchien
My W works in the mental health field. She is a smart cookie. If she truly felt abused and terrified, she would have filed an RO and filed for D. She *knows* she is bringing individual trust issues into this.
This seems like a red flag to me. Is your attorney aware of this?
What happened with me is I could not deal with my emotions. I would get anxious about our relationship, and then seek affection, and feel spurned and rejected, get frustrated, and start acting passive aggressively. I wouldn't call my W names, I wouldn't physically approach her, but just that atmosphere of pressure was enough to set us down this path. I accept my role. Now I am at a place where I *can* deal with those emotions, I continue to learn and grow, and I feel really good about dealing with my issues.
As you might guess, this really resonates with me as well. WAW has mentioned a couple of times that she feels like I was gaslighting her, and was at times emotionally abusive - for basically the same reasons you laid out. Classic NGS stuff all the way down the line: anxious attachment, not being emotionally open, not communicating, not resolving issues..and on and on.
You're/we're doing the right things: we're accepting confronting our issues head-on, learning about them, doing what we need to do in order to not have them impact whatever comes next. It is true however that as much as we might beat ourselves up for not having these realizations earlier, it is not fully on us and so long as your sitch casts you as the abuser, I think you're right that those negative emotions and memories are going to overpower any thoughts of your positive contributions and qualities.
But it [censored], for sure. There's a great/brutal quote by Kierkegaard: "The most painful state of being is remembering the future, particularly one you can never have." One of the biggest hurdles mentally is to not go back and think "Geez, if only I had read NGS earlier, things would have been so much better". That's just not the reality we face, there is no time machine.
And believe me, I'm typing that reply to you like a reply to myself as well. One day at a time, brother.
I can understand why you feel concerned with the long gap between possessions. Have you given any thought to making it Fri-Mon and then getting them on Mon of the next week? Or at the least getting time with them for a couple of hours for dinner on a weekday in the week that you don't have them?
I like the dinner idea, need to see how we settle into the school year activities here.
Originally Posted by MLCxH
Regarding the custody time, what does your attorney say about your chances if you do go to court? If you try to change their routine after several months it may actually be more disruptive for them than trying to establish a new routine now that works long term?
I won't lie this is an emotional trigger for me. I have not retained an attorney but I did have a consult. As long as I establish a pattern of regular overnights, she was not concerned. I am aware I may end up in a costly custody court battle down the road.
I'm really happy I avoided a court battle just to get to this point.
Originally Posted by MLCxH
Originally Posted by unchien
My W works in the mental health field. She is a smart cookie. If she truly felt abused and terrified, she would have filed an RO and filed for D. She *knows* she is bringing individual trust issues into this.
This seems like a red flag to me. Is your attorney aware of this?
Aware of the abuse talk? Yes.
I now have a regular established patterns of overnights. There has never been an allegation filed (no police, no CPS, and this has been discussed in front of at least 3 mandatory reporters who have all not reported anything). It would be challenging for my W to argue I should not have access to the children. "But you left them with your scary H for 4 nights at a time, you let him take them on a road trip by himself, you never filed any reports or called the police, etc." In fact, it's only good that I continue with limbo for a little while, and my W gets ramping up work (which she is really dragging her feet on unfortunately).
I don't see my W as using this as a card to play btw. My point was that she is strong-willed and if she wanted to file a report she would have no qualms doing so. She didn't.
Honestly the only thing I worry about is having to battle for 50-50 later. The attorney did not seem concerned. My position is I would want 50-50 in 2 years when D3 enters school. It is a reasonable position. I know this may cost a lot of money. So be it.
So just to be clear... I am not legally concerned about the abuse talk. I'm more concerned that my situation is a hopeless one or even an unhealthy one for me, that I should not be trying to bust this divorce.
As you might guess, this really resonates with me as well. WAW has mentioned a couple of times that she feels like I was gaslighting her, and was at times emotionally abusive - for basically the same reasons you laid out. Classic NGS stuff all the way down the line: anxious attachment, not being emotionally open, not communicating, not resolving issues..and on and on.
You're/we're doing the right things: we're accepting confronting our issues head-on, learning about them, doing what we need to do in order to not have them impact whatever comes next. It is true however that as much as we might beat ourselves up for not having these realizations earlier, it is not fully on us and so long as your sitch casts you as the abuser, I think you're right that those negative emotions and memories are going to overpower any thoughts of your positive contributions and qualities.
Thanks Steve - you always have very organized and thoughtful replies, it helps a lot.
My IC has a great saying: I don't believe there are abusers, there are only people who do abusive things. It helps me accept that my W and I can view things differently. And that we aren't locked into a label.
I am guessing you also feel that your W had some avoidant tendencies...
Originally Posted by SteveS
But it [censored], for sure. There's a great/brutal quote by Kierkegaard: "The most painful state of being is remembering the future, particularly one you can never have." One of the biggest hurdles mentally is to not go back and think "Geez, if only I had read NGS earlier, things would have been so much better". That's just not the reality we face, there is no time machine.
That is a great quote. I'm not really grieving the loss of my MR right now, I'm grieving the loss of the dreams of the future we would share. And also realizing we had strayed from that path a long time ago.
Originally Posted by SteveS
And believe me, I'm typing that reply to you like a reply to myself as well. One day at a time, brother.
I completely get it... it is therapeutic participating here.
Tonight is our weekly call to discuss various items. We share an agenda ahead of time.
I'm feeling incredibly anxious, and I'm kind of disappointed that I feel this way. And I'm disappointed that I'm disappointed, because I shouldn't be judging my emotions as "good" or "bad". Ugh.
During our last call my W got very emotional about negotiating over swapping a single day in our schedule. Tonight we have a huge list of items to cover -- schedule, finances, kids, budget. It will almost certainly last over an hour. Some of the items are quite minor in my mind, but we agree that we can both add items to the list.
I recognize I need to work on this anxiety. I can tolerate it now, but it is no less enjoyable. I don't react to it in "fight or flight" mode even though my body seems to want that.
The anxiety also feeds an emotional exhaustion.
One of the issues is timeshare. Right now we have a 4-10 schedule (counting nights), so I have every other Friday pm through Tuesday am. In the fall, due to my W's schedule, we have a couple weekends where we have to swap to keep everything lined up. My proposal was when this happens we slice the weekend in half, then just alternate who gets which slice whenever that happens. My W's proposal is I get one night and she gets the other 3.
I will stick to my stance here, it's just exhausting. I feel like I am being completely fair and coming up with a reasonable solution that maintains the existing timeshare. It's so tiring to negotiate, negotiate, negotiate and also DB.
We are working on a financial arrangement where we each have a separate account that will get some fixed amount of money per month. Now my W wants to talk about who pays for which family/friend's birthday gifts. Literally $10 gifts. This level of detail is just exhausting. It's more detailed than a D settlement (I think).
I feel like all I can do is continue to interact and not engage emotionally. It's so hard to do. It seems crazy how many logistical things we are discussing every week.
I know I need to just be calm and not react to my W's emotions. That is part of my NGS kicking in, worrying about her reactions. And wanting to run away from my problems...
Wow, That is a LOT of detail to discuss and it sounds unnecessarily stressful. Obviously logistics need to be discussed, but that level of detail about the money seems a bit much. I’m a SAHM (add desperately looking for work after 4 years out of the job force to my current list of stressors) and H has just been transferring a set amount of money into my account each week. I used to go after him for little amounts here and there for things that came up, but I found the anxiety that surrounded those convos wasn’t worth while. Is this perhaps a boundary to set with your W? To change the structure of the finances so that nobody is nit picking and less detail needs discussing?
Mostly this is a reflection on how I've made some improvements but I can still see my old tendencies poking through.
My anxiety is largely due to the unpredictable nature of what is going to set off my W.
And I recognize this is not her problem, it is my problem.
I'm not afraid of how this impacts any chances of R. I am afraid of her on the timeshare issue given the way she talks sometimes about child safety, even though I feel her concerns are unfounded at this point. I am not afraid on the finance issue, other than that her nitpicking wears me down.
And part of my fear is just conflict avoidant behavior. I have to fight through it. Use these experiences as practice.
I'm thinking about going into the conversation with a simple mindset:
- Don't agree to anything unless I really agree. Otherwise, say "I'll consider it and get back to you" - Don't get emotionally triggered. - If W gets emotionally triggered, end the call and reschedule. - Stay firm but friendly
Well that conversation was terrible and I made mistakes all over the place =( No need to 2x4 me because I see them all, I just feel I need to "fess up" here.
So many validation mistakes. She gets triggered when I don't agree with what she wants. But I got sucked into pointless discussions.
Example triggers: - She says she gave up her life in moving up here b/c I was unhappy with my job. I said we agreed together to make the move, that she did it all for me. - She says she will be screwed financially in a divorce. - She asked if things go south what I would want custody-wise long-term. I told her 50/50 (big mistake). She got really upset, said she would want to work part-time while the kids are in school. I wanted to tell her if we split I am not on the hook for her part-time working lifestyle (I didn't) -- but she sees this as "what's best for the kids" so obviously I'm a jerk for suggesting 50/50. - She doubted my sincerity in wanting to work things out, because I "reacted strongly when one of her friends got on a video chat with our kids." I wanted to say "you are just interpreting things your own way" but I said nothing. - She complained about about how hard it was not working, taking care of the kids, etc. - She complained about needing to establish credit since she has no income. - She said she's making all the sacrifices.
I responded to some of these things, which was stupid. I know better. I said this is really hard on everybody. I'm sure she felt like I was blaming her. All I can do is look ahead and try to do better, what's done is done.
It's so frustrating... she's complaining about M'd life, S'd life and D'd life all at once. And in her mind it's all my fault. "You don't act like someone who wants to reconcile." I bit my tongue... how exactly does someone who wants to reconcile act? I already tried the begging and pleading. I felt like she was saying "Someone who wants to reconcile does exactly what I want them to do" or something ridiculous.
She wants me to keep playing the supportive H role while she figures out if she wants to work on it.
It's so hard to validate and yet stand your ground. She mixes the emotions into it. So I have to balance standing my ground while also validating. And I stink at it, clearly.
Man I feel awful right now. Partly from all my missteps, and partly from hearing my W in this emotionally ruined state. It feels so hopeless. I know I'm being dramatic. I'm so tired of hearing her rants. I'm getting screwed here too.
