Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2

[crdcheck]

Thanks for the support. I feel like I've been doing all the DB stuff and am not seeing results so part of me wants to beg, cry, plead, etc. I won't - I understand that I came this way too late and that, with W's timeline, there was probably no chance no matter what. But still, part of me feels really desperate.

House is extra quiet and now echoing. She left a bunch of the wedding photos which now stand out since everything around them is gone. Even took my charging cable out of her car and left it on the counter (feels like she's saying "you won't be riding in my car anymore").

Have a lesson tonight, plans Fri, D3 most of the day Saturday, so there's plenty going on. It's just... yeah.

[AnotherStander]

Thanks for the support. I feel like I've been doing all the DB stuff and am not seeing results so part of me wants to beg, cry, plead, etc.

DB'ing rarely stops separation from happening, so don't sweat that too much. Recons are very rare while under the same roof. So try to look at S as a necessary step towards future recon.

She left a bunch of the wedding photos which now stand out since everything around them is gone.

Box them up and put them away somewhere. It helps.

Even took my charging cable out of her car and left it on the counter (feels like she's saying "you won't be riding in my car anymore").

Yes, it's her way or severing all ties. She's got to go to these kind of extremes before she'll stat missing you and questioning what she's done.

Have a lesson tonight, plans Fri, D3 most of the day Saturday, so there's plenty going on. It's just... yeah.

Good, try to keep yourself busy!

[crdcheck]

Hey, thoughts on keeping the "road paved" back? Examples:

1) W texts me a funny pic of the dog randomly, says "can you believe she...?" - how do I respond?
2) W invites me in when dropping D3 off - do I accept?
3) W starts asking about my separation plans (e.g. "have you booked movers to go to your new house, yet?") - how do I respond?
4) W wants help with something (e.g. "I need to have some body work done on my car, is there a place you recommend?"
5) We are still sharing various accounts (Amazon, Netflix, etc.) - do I take her off once we separate finances? If it makes a difference I am some of "hers", too.
6) How much should I share about my plans? I'm not doing anything to impress her so I don't feel the need to proactively share what I'm doing, but if I say I have plans on Fri and she asks what they are, how much should I share?

I guess I'm trying to figure out the balance between letting her eat cake (good friend but no more) and pushing her away (like, right now she thinks that I want space from her).

Anything else I should be thinking about? Any good resources for post-D interactions (aside from continued GAL, being best dad, being AMOAFWL, following through on commitments)?

[unchien]

Hey, thoughts on keeping the "road paved" back?

BTW anything I say below... please make your own decision what to do.

1) W texts me a funny pic of the dog randomly, says "can you believe she...?" - how do I respond?

Don't.

2) W invites me in when dropping D3 off - do I accept?

If you want to, sometimes. Make sure your choice is not driven by emotions towards your W.

3) W starts asking about my separation plans (e.g. "have you booked movers to go to your new house, yet?") - how do I respond?

Does she need to know this information? If so, let her know.

4) W wants help with something (e.g. "I need to have some body work done on my car, is there a place you recommend?"

Friendly neighbor rule... give her a rec if you have one

5) We are still sharing various accounts (Amazon, Netflix, etc.) - do I take her off once we separate finances? If it makes a difference I am some of "hers", too.

Separate them at some point. If not critical, ignore for now.

6) How much should I share about my plans? I'm not doing anything to impress her so I don't feel the need to proactively share what I'm doing, but if I say I have plans on Fri and she asks what they are, how much should I share?

Stay mysterious.

I guess I'm trying to figure out the balance between letting her eat cake (good friend but no more) and pushing her away (like, right now she thinks that I want space from her).

Anything else I should be thinking about? Any good resources for post-D interactions (aside from continued GAL, being best dad, being AMOAFWL, following through on commitments)?

Ignore what she thinks. Be in touch with your own values, then act according to them. You can't control how she reacts to you living your life. Are you actually pushing her away, or is that just her interpretation? If it's her interpretation ignore.

There is nothing wrong with being cordial and friendly. It is good to model for your daughter that you and her mom can manage a difficult relationship in a healthy way.

[sandi2]

Hey, thoughts on keeping the "road paved" back? Examples:

1) W texts me a funny pic of the dog randomly, says "can you believe she...?" - how do I respond?
2) W invites me in when dropping D3 off - do I accept?
3) W starts asking about my separation plans (e.g. "have you booked movers to go to your new house, yet?") - how do I respond?
4) W wants help with something (e.g. "I need to have some body work done on my car, is there a place you recommend?"
5) We are still sharing various accounts (Amazon, Netflix, etc.) - do I take her off once we separate finances? If it makes a difference I am some of "hers", too.
6) How much should I share about my plans? I'm not doing anything to impress her so I don't feel the need to proactively share what I'm doing, but if I say I have plans on Fri and she asks what they are, how much should I share?

I guess I'm trying to figure out the balance between letting her eat cake (good friend but no more) and pushing her away (like, right now she thinks that I want space from her).

Anything else I should be thinking about? Any good resources for post-D interactions (aside from continued GAL, being best dad, being AMOAFWL, following through on commitments)?

This type of stuff would make me furious, if I were in the shoes of the LBS. I mean, you could do absolutely nothing right in her opinion and she did not want to work on the MR, but the minute she moves out she wants to be in the family photos and be your best pal?

I suppose every person has their own idea of what it means to keep the road back paved smoothly, and I'll give you my thoughts on it in a minute. Your MR was in trouble before you started cheating, b/c she didn't want to have sex with you.........and that's usually a red flag. I don't know that she'll ever forgive you, but she'll never forget and probably won't let you forget the affairs, either. I thought Bluwave gave you excellent advise, but can't say that you followed it. By that, I mean that you couldn't save the M, b/c you needed to work on your issues first, and give her time & space from you. Instead, you placed yourself into a position that was very unattractive to your W.......which male cheaters seem to do as a way of trying to make up to their W. Anyway, I won't rehash all of that again.

I don't see keeping the road back paved smoothly meaning you become your ex's BFF. I don't think it means becoming her enemy, either. The things you listed in your post above, are actions of an new XW who wants to keep a certain amount of control and/or connection in the personal life of the H she just dumped. She still wants to be included in your extended family's celebrations/events. She expects you to be available to her whenever she needs tech assistance, plumbing, automobile issues, errand boy, free counseling when she's having a pity party, or a buddy if she's bored. However, she has no intention of building this type of relationship into anything romantic/sexual. In other words, she continues taking advantage, or as I like to say......."using" her LBH.

IMHO, keeping the road paved smoothly is not creating a situation where it would make getting back together impossible or extremely stressful........as long as you hope to reconcile with your XW. My favorite example, (b/c I've seen it happen right here on the board), is a man who jumped into a rebound relationship with OW. Then his W wanted to reconcile. But then........guess what? OW tells him she is pregnant. So, you see the problem. Keeping the road paved smoothly doesn't mean you bend over backward to accommodate your XW, but you don't try to be her worst enemy, either.

I suggest you keep things on a business level for several months, maybe a year. Don't engage in texting except in matters about kids. Finances should be settled before the S/D, and a schedule for kids set. You don't go inside her new place! You pull up and pick the kids up at the door, and deliver them at the door. You aren't there to be chummy with the gal you could never please. Remember her? Well, you leave her alone. You don't ask her any questions about her life, and you don't offer information about your own. Strictly business only. This gives a much needed break that she needs from the emotional hurt and bitterness that is connected to you. She has to be away from you in order to sort it out, and just maybe.......try to heal. But as long as you are available whenever she texts or calls with some "excuse", she won't work through the anger and bitterness. First thing you know, she'll be bringing things up in conversation or messages........how selfish you are, etc. So, it's time to drop the rope and move on with your life. I don't advise you to get into another relationship for a couple of years, but you don't have to stop living and GAL.

She won't like this arrangement, but she wanted out of the M.......and she doesn't get to have it both ways. Trust me when I say that by her reacting this quickly to wanting to be in family photos and sending these type of texts..........she plans to "use" you. Yes, it is cake eating! Just remember that she fired you and removed herself from the position of your wife. So, outside of kid swaps, why should there be all these texts messages? No, don't fall into that trap where she's sending you pictures off the Internet, or whatever. Don't acknowledge that kind of stuff. Some women send photos of the kids every twenty minutes, or ask LBH to send her photos when it's his turn to keep the kids.......mostly b/c they are addicted to their phones, and b/c they want to keep that string attached. They want the divorce, but they don't want the consequences that come with the divorce. I'm not saying you should be punitive, but I'm just trying to warn you what to expect.

I think it's time to cut out MC, if that is still going on. She can get IC, and you can continue with IC. Hopefully, within a couple of years, she can start letting go of some things and moving forward. I realize that sounds like a long time, but realistically, when dealing with these type of issues, it's not that long. Whether you reconcile the M or not, if she can heal enough, then the two of you may be able to get on closer terms. Only time will tell.

[AnotherStander]

I agree with Sandi's comments that there needs to be a period after S that is business-only. Minimal contact, little interaction. She invites you inside you politely decline. She sends you texts you don't reply unless it's something kid or finance related. There needs to be an adjustment period where both of you get used to being "unmarried". Don't be mean or cold, just detached. After my S every time I would go to the gym they would play that song "now you're just somebody that I used to know." THAT should be your attitude, as difficult as it may be.

As far as "keeping the way home paved and smooth", that doesn't mean to be her bestie. It doesn't mean be out there paving and repaving and paving again every day, what it means is you don't set up any roadblocks and you don't dig any potholes. See the difference? You're not actively trying to pursue or pull her back in, but you're also not doing anything to sabotage a future recon. Don't be mean, don't pick fights, don't be catty, don't talk to her friends and relatives about how "crazy" she is. Just live your life and let her live hers. Most recons I've seen come after a long, quiet period of little to no interaction.

[crdcheck]

This type of stuff would make me furious, if I were in the shoes of the LBS. I mean, you could do absolutely nothing right in her opinion and she did not want to work on the MR, but the minute she moves out she wants to be in the family photos and be your best pal?

I should clarify - these haven't all occurred yet but, based on previous experiences I think that they are reasonably likely. In the past she's said that she wants to be friends no matter what, going so far as to suggest that we take a family trip together. Those big items I know that I will have time to think through before responding but I wanted to proactively think through small items ("hey, do you want to come in and see the crazy kitchen in here?"). I recognize that a) I'm going to make mistakes and that b) in isolation they probably won't have a huge impact (we are getting divorced, 1/3 chance of attempting R, 1/3 chance of R taking hold) but I'd like to do what I can to improve our odds.

IMHO, keeping the road paved smoothly is not creating a situation where it would make getting back together impossible or extremely stressful........as long as you hope to reconcile with your XW. My favorite example, (b/c I've seen it happen right here on the board), is a man who jumped into a rebound relationship with OW. Then his W wanted to reconcile. But then........guess what? OW tells him she is pregnant. So, you see the problem. Keeping the road paved smoothly doesn't mean you bend over backward to accommodate your XW, but you don't try to be her worst enemy, either.

Yep, makes sense. Where I'm at in general is that I'm going to be me and if she looks over decides that's who she wants then we can talk about working through our issues. I'm not going back to the status quo even if she decides that I wasn't as bad as she thought (shame on me for trying to change too much of myself that I really didn't exist). Where I sort of struggle is that, with most people I'm an open book. When people at work ask me how my weekend was I give specifics. When the barber asks why I'm buying a house when I just moved I tell him about the divorce and how I contributed to it. Point is, being "mysterious" with W will be inconsistent with who I am and I'm not sure if that is the nature of the situation and will improve the odds of a positive outcome or if it will come across as insincere (another case of me not being myself) and push her away.

I suggest you keep things on a business level for several months, maybe a year. Don't engage in texting except in matters about kids. ... So, it's time to drop the rope and move on with your life. I don't advise you to get into another relationship for a couple of years, but you don't have to stop living and GAL.

Makes sense. One question - why the recommendation against another relationship? Not disagreeing, just want to understand the danger (that W thinks I've closed the door to R? That these are likely to fail?)

I think it's time to cut out MC, if that is still going on. She can get IC, and you can continue with IC. Hopefully, within a couple of years, she can start letting go of some things and moving forward. I realize that sounds like a long time, but realistically, when dealing with these type of issues, it's not that long. Whether you reconcile the M or not, if she can heal enough, then the two of you may be able to get on closer terms. Only time will tell.

MC is over - I dropped the rope on this after the last session, decided that if she wanted to continue to see someone to work on communications, etc., I would be happy to do so, but not only am I no longer going to beg or coerce her into going, I'm not even scheduling it. That's been my approach for the entire divorce. She wants to sell the house? Fine. But I'm not volunteering to pull weeds to make it more presentable. If she asks for help then, depending on whether or not I want to I will. But ultimately this is her "project" now that she unilaterally cut me out of leadership responsibilities.

I have an IC that I like. I think that hers is poor - based on her website and description from W it seems like she's all about making W feel better, no discussion of W's impact to MR. E.g. W claims that IC diagnosed me with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). Even if I had it, that can't be done without an in-person evaluation. But maybe W made that up (of late I've noticed that she has a distressing habit of exaggerating and/or straight up making stuff up). Regardless, I don't think that her IC has been an advocate for working together on this - since she started she's come back with nothing but criticisms of me ("turning away" rather than "turning toward"). Of course, I do have to ask myself if I'm just a big a##hole but I think there is toxic behavior from both of us.

Last question: what does "closer terms" mean? It seems like we are saying "no" to cake eating which leads me to conclude that I should be business-like for...ever, but what would "closer" be like? I mean, here's the thing: I have plenty of friends (more now that I'm not on a leash), I'm a great father, I have more to do than I have time to do. I don't need another friend. I need a partner. That "job" is available, all other postings are filled at this time. As angry as I am with her about various items I can see that we make a great team in so many ways and that the differences are overplayed - we could work through them together if she was willing to do so. But a buddy? Nah.

Thanks, Sandi, for the advice. I spent a lot of time marinating on it before responding and I appreciate the mix of short-term vs longer-term recommendations.

[crdcheck]

As far as "keeping the way home paved and smooth", that doesn't mean to be her bestie. It doesn't mean be out there paving and repaving and paving again every day, what it means is you don't set up any roadblocks and you don't dig any potholes. See the difference? You're not actively trying to pursue or pull her back in, but you're also not doing anything to sabotage a future recon. Don't be mean, don't pick fights, don't be catty, don't talk to her friends and relatives about how "crazy" she is. Just live your life and let her live hers. Most recons I've seen come after a long, quiet period of little to no interaction.

Yep, makes sense. I just wonder whether I'm creating roadblocks by treating her differently than I would anyone else (if someone texts me a funny pic I acknowledge it, if someone invites me in to see their home I join, regardless of relationship). Feels like she could take it as I'm bitter and cutting her out completely, door is closed. But message is coming in loud and clear from both of you (and others). Better that she feel the loss rather than enjoy the benefits without investing.

And I guess that I have to come to terms with the idea that, while R is best (to me), second best is being separate, not being her friend (or whatever). It's a bit of a mental chasm - the idea that we have to be nothing (and I have to enforce that despite her entreaties) before we can (MAYBE) be together.

[unchien]

if someone texts me a funny pic I acknowledge it

Why? I mean this seriously... why do you always respond?

if someone invites me in to see their home I join, regardless of relationship

Stranger danger!

I detect a little NG behavior here... stop worrying about how anybody interprets what you do (not just your W). Are you self-identifying as a nice person? Do you want others to see you as nice? It's okay to be nice, but don't be doing it because you value niceness.

Ultimately, how can you expect your W to change if you aren't willing to change? That's what stepping back is all about. Give her the space. If you have to think of it this way, think of it as you granting your W a gift. The gift of time and space to figure out what she wants. She can't figure that out while you're acting like friends (unless being friends is what you'd like to be).

You will get blowback from her. I'm telling you... that's what it's going to take for any change to happen anyways. You can't nice her back.

[AnotherStander]

I just wonder whether I'm creating roadblocks by treating her differently than I would anyone else (if someone texts me a funny pic I acknowledge it, if someone invites me in to see their home I join, regardless of relationship). Feels like she could take it as I'm bitter and cutting her out completely, door is closed. But message is coming in loud and clear from both of you (and others). Better that she feel the loss rather than enjoy the benefits without investing.

For now you need to cut her out of her life as much as is reasonable. You didn't just get BD'd by all those other people who are texting you funny pics or inviting you in, so yeah, that's a pretty big difference My take on this is after you drop the rope and detach, THEN if you are OK with being in the friend zone with her then more power to you, go for it. But it can take well over a year post-BD for you to well and truly detach. Until then you should maintain as much space between the two of you as you can.

It's a bit of a mental chasm - the idea that we have to be nothing (and I have to enforce that despite her entreaties) before we can (MAYBE) be together.

Yes that is exactly right. Nothing is often better than something when it comes to paving the road to recon. The problem is nothing doesn't FEEL better. It goes against our nature. Especially us guys. We want to get in there and tinker and poke and prod and temperature check and analyze and calculate and make spreadsheets and calculate the odds, LOL! That's our instincts in play, but we've got to fight that. Get's easier with time.