Other then some missed opportunities to validate I don’t think you did that bad. There is absolutely nothing wrong with standing your ground. I’m glad you told her you want 50/50 custody. When decisions are based on emotions there are sure to be consequences.
Try very hard to not become obsessed with her comment that YOU clearly don’t want to work on the marriage. She’s projecting. You’re kinda in a tough spot because right now it seems remaining separated Is her best option right now and that is going to mean you remain in limbo.
I agree with LH. You did well in the conversation.
You can't plan these phone calls out. You have to roll with them. Don't beat yourself up over what someone else is thinking.
Your W is like mine is/was - all over the map. It's a tornado inside her head right now. She has no idea what she wants and she is angry because of it. And of course it is all going to be projected onto you because you are the one she is closest to.
Try not to get Into her head. Nothing makes sense with emotional thinking - I've learned that the hard way.
I'm sorry you feel terrible, U. It does suck. But the feeling will pass - just like all the others have. (I too have to keep reminding myself that, especially now)
Take a moment and breathe. This marathon has a lot of ups and downs. Our goal is to keep an even keel as much as possible.
We are working on a financial arrangement where we each have a separate account that will get some fixed amount of money per month. Now my W wants to talk about who pays for which family/friend's birthday gifts. Literally $10 gifts. This level of detail is just exhausting. It's more detailed than a D settlement (I think).
Silly stuff like this just tell her when it comes up you will discuss it then. My XW was the same way, wanted to split every little expense 50-50 and work it out ahead of time. I just told her it was too much for me to think about and we would discuss it on a case-by-case basis as it came up. But we rarely have because we both contributed pretty equally after the D. I think once she saw it was working out that way that she backed off of it.
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She gets triggered when I don't agree with what she wants.
How do you mean, does she start yelling or getting aggressive or what? Next time just put a stop to it. Tell her you're not going to talk to her unless she can treat you with respect and if her mistreatment continues you will hang up. If she keeps doing it then tell her the convo is over and hang up.
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- She says she gave up her life in moving up here b/c I was unhappy with my job. I said we agreed together to make the move, that she did it all for me. - She says she will be screwed financially in a divorce.
This is NOT what the talk was supposed to be about. If she strays like this then put her back on topic. "I am sorry you feel this way but this is not the subject of this conversation, now let's get back on topic, we were going to discuss XYZ." Every single time she strays then repeat that. Think of these convos as a business conversation. It needs to be detached and professional, the same as if you were at the office.
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- She asked if things go south what I would want custody-wise long-term. I told her 50/50 (big mistake). She got really upset, said she would want to work part-time while the kids are in school. I wanted to tell her if we split I am not on the hook for her part-time working lifestyle (I didn't) -- but she sees this as "what's best for the kids" so obviously I'm a jerk for suggesting 50/50.
Stand your ground. "Blah blah work part time blah blah best for the kids blah" "You asked me what I would pursue and 50-50 is what I will pursue. Now can we please finish this conversation, I have other things to do today."
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- She doubted my sincerity in wanting to work things out, because I "reacted strongly when one of her friends got on a video chat with our kids." I wanted to say "you are just interpreting things your own way" but I said nothing. - She complained about about how hard it was not working, taking care of the kids, etc. - She complained about needing to establish credit since she has no income. - She said she's making all the sacrifices.
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It's so frustrating... she's complaining about M'd life, S'd life and D'd life all at once. And in her mind it's all my fault. "You don't act like someone who wants to reconcile."
"I am sorry you feel this way but this is not the subject of this conversation, now let's get back on topic, we were going to discuss XYZ." I am absolutely NOT exaggerating when I say REPEAT THIS OVER AND OVER if you have to. That is as much validating as you should do in a conversation that is supposed to be about kids and finances.
Thank you everyone for the support in particular on the 50-50 comment.
I didn't put all the dumb mistakes in my prior post. Here is probably the worst one, it is paraphrased because I tend not to remember word-for-word exchanges:
W: I sacrificed everything to move here for you. My career, my family, my friends. I am screwed financially. Me: I can understand that is really hard for you. W: Really?! Do you REALLY understand?
And the mistake:
Me: It's not easy for me either. You aren't the only one sacrificing. Sometimes I feel like all I do is provide a bag of money and in return I go 10 day stretches without seeing the kids.
I know it was a mistake and I need to do what AS suggested. I am going to think about proposing we try to handle these matters over e-mail and keep the phone calls to discussions about the kids.
There was a LOT discussed. Financially it seems my W is really worried about establishing credit because she has no income. She feels like things are frozen. I told her I didn't freeze anything, and she said, "Yeah I know" So she wanted in addition to a monthly spending account (which we each get, so it's fair) to transfer a fairly large sum of money into a savings account in her name. I said fine as long as I can do the same. It's a big of a red flag for me -- I don't think she will go spending it, but it happens to be suspiciously roughly the amount a L would ask for for a retainer. But this is me getting paranoid... even if that were true, great. I'm glad if she can feel more secure as long as it's fair.
She was also paranoid about my work retirement money, as the financial advisor told us last week once the money gets swept into my 401(k) it is separate property. I said OK, but I get this big company match which is basically free money. I agreed to write a document stating I am okay with this 401(k) being considered part of community property. I really don't care. Split it all down the middle if we go that route.
There was a lot of intense conversation about our timeshare schedule. Before the call, my W asked me to propose a schedule for the 2 week Xmas/NY holiday (yes, that far ahead). I gave her roughly a 50/50 time split with exchanges every 2 or 3 days. She fired back in e-mail that she wanted to take the kids to SD, they did that a lot last year, she didn't know we would be in this position this year, it was hard no. I responded (in email): "OK, what would work for you?" And she proposed something, and I said, "Great!" So I did well there (I think)
Right now I do every other Friday pm through Tuesday am with the kids. I'd like to squeeze in a family dinner during my 10 days without them, and maybe after awhile try to get an overnight in there. Three issues came up on the call:
1. My kids started school a week ago. My W is concerned that them staying at my house during the school week is disruptive. I did get a little triggered, and said "Of course I want what's best for the kids, they are adjusting to a lot, let's see how they do." She seemed to want me to instead do a "3 out of 4 weekends" Friday pm through Sunday pm kind of a deal. I didn't bite. One of my friends did that, and he said it was rough because he had 1 weekend a month. But regardless if the kids can adjust I want weeknights.
2. We have to switch up our alternating weekends a few times, mostly due to my W's plans (which I am being very accommodating about). If my W has consecutive weekends, that would be 18 days straight with the kids. She had proposed I take 1 weekend day. I had countered (this was weeks ago). That we should each take 2 days (out of my normal 4), and alternate who gets which 2 days and it will all balance out. Anyways, she is still "thinking about it." This one irritates me, because I think what I proposed is as fair as you can get to respect our existing timeshare schedule, but she acts like I'm being difficult.
3. She booked travel in October before our separation. Somehow it is my fault that this means she wouldn't see the kids for an extra couple days (she is going Wednesday night through Sunday). Obviously this is one of my weekends with the kids, and she didn't like going Wednesday night through Tuesday morning without the kids. I had thought she wanted to get them Sunday morning which I didn't like because I sacrifice a whole weekend day. I ended up saying, OK, How about I just do Wednesday night through Sunday night? and we agreed.
Oh there are more details... we are also going to try a budgeting app. Our financial advisor is going to run the state calculator to see what temporary spousal support would look like. My W thinks the budget is a factor, and I said I'm pretty sure it's based off income and custody alone. The budget is for our benefit so we can see the whole picture of this separation. I may be wrong.
Even more... one of my weekends, D5 has a dance competition. These things require getting all dolled up with makeup and hair, etc. My W wanted to do her makeup and hair, even though it's my weekend. I said ok. There is no way I can do dance hair. Right now I've only progressed to French braids with my girls, no makeup yet
So many details...
Overall what was disappointing to me was my W's mindset. She's really rewriting history on our move. I feel like writing some about that here as well. Sorry this is such a long post but I don't think I've ever really covered this aspect:
Three years ago we decided to sell our home in the town where my W's family lives. We had lived there about 8 years. My W didn't like the neighborhood, and I agreed, although we were locked into an amazing mortgage. My W was working part-time, and I had a job at a startup making low pay. This city did not have a lot of job opportunities for me in general. We decided to rent for a year, and by the end of that year, make a decision -- buy a new home, move, etc. I should also say we rarely saw her family while we lived there. But my W built up a decent circle of friends for herself, and we both had our reasons for loving the lifestyle.
That year of renting was stressful. It is the year my parents cut me off. Leading up to the end of the lease, we were looking at so many options. My W wanted to buy a house we couldn't afford. I went to my startup and got a 25% raise. It wasn't enough to make this work. Yes I was unhappy in the job, but if we bought a less expensive home I knew we could swing it for awhile.
In the meantime, I was investigating my other job options. One thing about startups is you only feel confident in your job security for the next 3 months anyways. They were promising bonuses and not paying them, etc.
We ended up with 3 choices. Stay at the startup, move to city #1 (less expensive, less desirable place to live, overall would have been an "easy" lifestyle financially), or move to city #2 (extremely expensive, tons of job opportunities, place where my W and I first met, and a job offer for me that would make it all work).
We chose move to city #2. I make about 2x what I made at the startup after the raise. I thought my W supported this, in fact my NGS was in over-gear at the time trying to make sure this was true. When we went to MC1 last year, she confirmed she was fully on board. So this shift is frustrating to me. It's as if she feels I emotionally coerced her to move.
So now the situation is that if we D, I have a nice-paying job and yes it would be fairly easy for me to adjust financially. I probably can't afford a home, but I will land on my feet. My W feels completely screwed financially. But it's not my fault, in my mind. We have been here now 2 full years and she has yet to start working. Also not my fault.
Sometimes I think staying at the startup would have been the right choice, but only if I also had somehow gone through the personal growth I have gone through now. We would have been financially in a bad spot, but maybe we could have made it work out. I would have been less worried about "the future."
The startup is still going, still not paying bonuses, and still has no payoff opportunities. It was job limbo, and still is for the people I stay in touch with. They hate it. I didn't want that for my family.
I think my W really struggled with adjusting to the move. She is a proud woman and has done some amazing things. She paid her way through school and got a PhD, all while her parents did not support her. Her siblings have a negative attitude about life and generally scratch by. So I think my W thought this was just another big change she could handle. And I think she really couldn't. I feel sad for her. I can see how she has crafted a narrative in her head so she doesn't have to directly deal with it. It's my fault, not hers. She's screwed, she's the victim. If only we could just move back to the home city. It's really interesting to see her negativity, now that I have learned to pull myself out of it. I don't feel superior, I empathize with her, I was there just a few months ago. I'm surprised how she has been in IC for 6 months and still feels this way. I'm surprised she doesn't realize she is in charge of her own happiness.
OK this is way too long, thanks for reading whoever got to this point!
I was just told the same thing last week after mediation which was a waste of time and money because W doesn't have ducks in a row, or understands how the itemized process works. So many times I've tried to relate and validate what she has gone through/is going through. Her standard script response is "I come across as disingenuous" The gas lighting, blame shifting and communications issues continue. She even admitted we are on two different scripts. She will not tell me something related to logistics (Dr's appointsments, schedules, etc.) when I record every interaction and write down everything and then try to blame it on my memory. she's all over the place between the refinance her mother's cancer, therapy, running up her debt, traveling and spending with the kid, while living on nothing until next month (which I just floated her $4,000 to cover all of her expenses and she's asking for more) and all the other stuff she wants to do. I just gotten to a point where the only way I feel like is that I'm an ATM machine. she doesn't email me or talk to me unless it has to do with Logistics. So you know we're in the same house we don't talk at all, since she won't have a conversation with me and then blame me thinking that she told me something when she didn't I just told her specifically send all comms to email. I'm not doing this. So we don't talk, and I refuse to talk to her unless its in passing or about S1. I can't even tell you how many times a story in her mind changes. Responses and decisions change, what they said a month ago changes. Just leave them to their mess Uni. As composed, nice, and amicable as they are, They are going to throw throws fit every time they don't get their way, you say no to something, Work on you. You are doing great. Keep your sanity and your frame, validate, but don't get sucked into her issues anymore unless she wants to work on the M.
W: I sacrificed everything to move here for you. My career, my family, my friends. I am screwed financially. Me: I can understand that is really hard for you. W: Really?! Do you REALLY understand?
You DID NOT say you understand what it is like (which would be the wrong thing to say), you said you understand that it's hard for her which is the RIGHT thing to say. U, you did fine, that was good validation. That doesn't mean she'll rush into your arms and praise you for being such an awesome man, sometimes despite our best efforts they are still Queen B***** of B****land.
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Me: It's not easy for me either. You aren't the only one sacrificing. Sometimes I feel like all I do is provide a bag of money and in return I go 10 day stretches without seeing the kids.
I know it was a mistake and I need to do what AS suggested. I am going to think about proposing we try to handle these matters over e-mail and keep the phone calls to discussions about the kids.
Honestly I think that was fine. It probably didn't have any impact on her but now and then it doesn't hurt to remind them that they don't corner the market on hurting. Don't beat yourself up U, I think you did better than you're giving yourself credit for.
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She was also paranoid about my work retirement money, as the financial advisor told us last week once the money gets swept into my 401(k) it is separate property. I said OK, but I get this big company match which is basically free money. I agreed to write a document stating I am okay with this 401(k) being considered part of community property. I really don't care. Split it all down the middle if we go that route.
Don't be so anxious to give her everything. You need to protect yourself because D is sounding pretty inevitable at this point. Don't put ANYTHING in writing to her until consulting a L.
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When we went to MC1 last year, she confirmed she was fully on board. So this shift is frustrating to me. It's as if she feels I emotionally coerced her to move.
Brother, welcome to "rewriting of history". You know what you should do about it? Ignore it. It's your NGS kicking in that tells you it should bother you and you need to convince someone (us, her, family, strangers) that she really was on board and you are not the mean guy she's making you out to be. I get it, I was there too. You know what I finally told myself? The world f'ing loves a bad boy anyway, so if she wants to run around telling everyone what a bad boy I am, GO FOR IT. Yeah I discipline my kids (spank them, scold them), so what? Yeah I was controlling sometimes in the M, said what I wanted and expected others to be OK with that, SO WHAT? Yeah I didn't always treat my wife like some entitled brat, SOOOO WHATTTT???? What does that all make me? An alpha male. And I don't care what anyone thinks about that, it is who I am and I wear it proudly. Quit being so sensitive U.
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So now the situation is that if we D, I have a nice-paying job and yes it would be fairly easy for me to adjust financially. I probably can't afford a home, but I will land on my feet. My W feels completely screwed financially. But it's not my fault, in my mind. We have been here now 2 full years and she has yet to start working. Also not my fault.
Well let's see, who is here trying to save their M and who is trying to burn it to the ground? I say if there's blame to go around, it falls squarely on the one holding the match. Again if she wants to wallow in self-despair then let her, but that doesn't mean you have to sit and listen to it ad nauseam. "I'm sorry you feel that way but we need to wrap up our conversation as I have a busy evening ahead."
Hey U, on my lunch break so I’ll keep it short but,
Man isn’t that crazy how she’s worried about the kids switching houses during the school year. I understand but it is a direct consequence of her separating. Great job keeping your cool though, I probably would have gotten really angry. Just bugs me when these WW and WAWs act all woe is me over something that they caused. Keep it up buddy!
Other then some missed opportunities to validate I don’t think you did that bad. There is absolutely nothing wrong with standing your ground. I’m glad you told her you want 50/50 custody. When decisions are based on emotions there are sure to be consequences.
Try very hard to not become obsessed with her comment that YOU clearly don’t want to work on the marriage. She’s projecting. You’re kinda in a tough spot because right now it seems remaining separated Is her best option right now and that is going to mean you remain in limbo.
Thanks LH. I definitely could have recognized she was in an emotionally charged state and stepped back a bit. I felt at some point I have to make it clear I would want 50/50, I saw an opening last night, and I took it. I'm expecting some blowback from this. Oh well.
The custody and financial discussions, as painful as they are, are actually helping me deal with limbo. I figure if we end up D'ing, hashing out as much as we can upfront is better now. And in the process, we are having to have difficult conversations, so there are opportunities to validate, etc. I am gaining some clarity from how my W deals with these discussions as well.
It's clear to me the ball is completely in my W's court. She knows it, she resents it, she feels pressure, and with her current mindset, any realistic path to R would take years. I truly believe that. She's had 6 months of IC to date and I see no change.
I agree with LH. You did well in the conversation.
You can't plan these phone calls out. You have to roll with them. Don't beat yourself up over what someone else is thinking.
Your W is like mine is/was - all over the map. It's a tornado inside her head right now. She has no idea what she wants and she is angry because of it. And of course it is all going to be projected onto you because you are the one she is closest to.
Try not to get Into her head. Nothing makes sense with emotional thinking - I've learned that the hard way.
I'm sorry you feel terrible, U. It does suck. But the feeling will pass - just like all the others have. (I too have to keep reminding myself that, especially now)
Take a moment and breathe. This marathon has a lot of ups and downs. Our goal is to keep an even keel as much as possible.
You can do this, man.
Thanks IW. It was an intense call, you are right about the emotional thinking.
I stayed up late last night with my mind spinning a little bit. But nowhere like it used to. I would have pulled an all-nighter before ruminating. I am much better at recognizing the boundary between my reality and her reality.
Maybe the most disappointing feeling was how far we are from even making any sort of progress. I knew she felt negatively, but it was even worse than I thought. Nothing I can control.
