I finally decided to post here, though I've been reading this forum for the last few weeks. I've found great value in coming here, and even though they don't know me, at the outset wish to greet and thank members like Steve85, Still Standing, Ready to Change, Sandi2, DnJ, job and similar veterans, whose wisdom really resonates with me.
Apologies for the length and detail of my post, and focus on my XW, but I find this cathartic and a chance to vent with people who have gone through the same insidious trial by fire. I really would welcome any evaluations or insight, as I've been living in a parallel universe the last 6.5 months. Here's my story.
I'm early 40's and my XW is turning 50 very soon. We're both professionally employed in high stress jobs. We met early 2004, and fell for each other very quickly (she pursued me), and I moved in with her within a few months at her request. We married in 2013, have a 10 year old son, and I have 2 adult step kids (early 20's) from her. She was previously married, and was just finalising her divorce and settlement when we met (she initially approached me on behalf of her best friend at a club, but liked me herself, and we ended up being attracted to each other immediately and very strongly - more on the friend later). I was in my mid 20's, quite naive, and she was older and far and away very wordly.
My XW is a very dominant, gregarious, bombastic, independant, know what she wants and take charge kind of person, whereas I'm quite the other end of the spectrum. She was the one with the ideas, and I carried out the nuts and bolts of our vision, becuase I liked her vision - I thought we very much complemented each other, and we were good at what we each brought to the table. She is the sort of person who is so strong willed and independant that if she sets her mind on something, she cant be told otherwise. You could be outside looking at the sky and saying it's blue, and she'd say its pink and not listen to the reality. The behaviour I oftentimes found most baffling related to her 'bossiness' - if she wanted to do a chore, or something else, she expected me to participate with what she wanted me to do. She would also say she didn't want to have to tell me what to do, so when I would go and do something of my own accord (usually chore related), she would almost plead for me not to do it, and come and relax with her, or sit with her, because she didn't want me to do whatever I was planning to do. We often joked around about 'happy wife, happy life' and how she appreciated my easy going nature and acceptance of her 'bossiness'. Looking back now, it strikes me that from the beginning of the R, she would at random but frequent times question me as to why I wanted to be with an older woman, she's older than me, and similar things, but I would always reassure her. Mutual and very frequent displays of affection had always been huge in our R, right til the end. She was a good, strong, loving woman, and I loved her, flaws and all.
In late January 2019, I kissed my wife before going to work and when I came home, my wife was like a stranger. She was angry with me because the current home (CH) we lived in was in my sole legal name (it was formerly an investment property) and she was freaking out about that if 'something should happen between us' and 'people change when this happens'. Her eyes and face were dark - she looked different. Late in 2018, we sold our matrimonial home (MH), made a good profit, and were all ready to start our dream of flipping homes, which we'd been talking about for months, and relaxing more and enjoying life. She had this belief that the MH was hers, as was most of the proceeds of sale in our joint account, because our first home together was hers from a previous marriage, and she got an inheritance from her father years ago. About a week or 2 before, she had met up with her abovementioned friend for lunch, and had scheduled a night out the night after the argument with her friend again. I had always encouraged her to be close to her friends and see them as often as she could, even though she would sometimes cancel as she wanted to hang at home with us, or just couldn't be bothered.
Anyway, earlier that day (like only 5 hours before the meltdown), she called me excitedly at lunchtime and said she found a house we could buy and move into while renovating, and we were both happy and excited about that. It was the normal, loving 'catch up' conversation we regularly had when I was at work - I still cant fathom how within a few hours she changed so much. We'd both been a bit strained lately though because the CH was tiny and very run down, and in my view had a bad 'vibe', and the reno quotes were more than we had anticipated. We'd been forced to sleep on mattresses on the floor in the lounge room for about 2 months by that time, and my adult step daughter moved in again early January as well, due to fly in again the night of the above argument - so, 4 people sleeping on matresses in a small lounge room.
We'd also been frustrated due to lack of intimacy from her recent implant surgery and the sleeping arrangements, getting quotes to renovate, and a couple of weeks earlier my SS had run her ragged in buying him a car and having R problems with a girlfriend. Throughout 2018, she had worried quite a bit about menopause and ageing, had become very engaged with reading fiction/erotic stories on her phone in her sparetime (an issue I'd raised with her a few times as I was feeling neglected). She finished her Psychology Masters December 2018 (she had wanted to be a counsellor but changed her mind about halfway through the course). I had always supported her and mostly been the proverbial 'good husband', which she reminded me of often, but was also often critical too. We holidayed after we sold our MH, and she became very focussed on getting implants just before we went, which we did during our holiday even though we had to cancel and rebook and significantly change our itinerary. After we got back in December 2018, she wanted to get a facelift, a Vespa, a diamond ring, and a pinball machine - I got her the pinball machine the day before the abovementioned argument. She'd been encouraging me to take up fishing again, which I had, and we were going to get a boat. We'd decided after selling the home that we'd spend some money on ourselves.
After the argument, she went very cold and distant. I had experienced this before during bad arguments, where she would essentially coldly ignore me for a few days, then either apologise for being a b...h and not knowing what came over her, or things would just slide back to normal. After a week though, she took off her ring. I approached her cautiously to find out what was wrong, and the floodgates opened. From what I remember, I was told that the 'fog has lifted' (I found that really odd), we're incompatible, it's over and we're 'never, ever, ever, ever' getting back together, she has cut out people from her life before like this and never changes her mind, she has changed and her needs have changed, I haven't changed even though she's been asking me to so she needs to force a change, I'm too negative and grumpy, I don't face conflict and hide in the shadows, her kids come first, she wants adventure, she wants to hitchhike in India, she's turning 50 soon and only has 10 good years and wants to have a huge 50th bday with all her friends, I'm a great guy but we're incompatible, she resented my back injury from years ago and having to do more housework and that I didnt listen to her in getting surgery/pilates, we communicate superficially like neighbours, we're superficial, she's sick of b!tching about me to her friends, her friends an colleagues are settling in their relationships and she doesn't want to just settle, loves me but not in love, feels nothing and there's no spark or attraction, doesn't want to hug, touch or kiss me, criticised me for my testosterone issues from years ago but then said the sex was pretty good, has neglected her friends for too long, wants to focus on her kids and friends, I should get a new girlfriend and have kids as I'm younger than her and would make a great partner but not for her, she wants to be alone and never wants to live with a man again but won't close her mind to future relationships, wants to be friends and remain living together for a couple of years so we can still buy and flip homes for 'financial security' etc etc.
I tried to reason with her, but she rewrote history, and countered with very forceful but seemingly illogical arguments. She even said it was a huge 'red flag' for her during our argument the previous week that I brought up that I had helped her for years with her University assignments when I stuck up for myself and reminded how we were a partnership and helped each other as a team. She told me that when we argued in the past and she apologised she only did it because I moped and she felt like that was me trying to control her. The big focus was on her age, how her needs changed, how I haven't changed, we are incompatible, not stagnating, wanting to be with friends and her kids, wanting to go on adventures and how only 'you can make you happy'. I apologised for my part in not meeting her needs for change, and was told no need to apologise and she only blames herself for not doing this sooner, and has felt this way for 2 years. I suggested counselling but she refused absolutely. She seemed very angry at herself that she hadn't ended things sooner.
We'd been to marriage counselling once in January 2018 at my suggestion after a big blow up with my step son. We went once, and then she didn't want to go anymore, and went back to normal. I found it odd she just abruptly stopped but I continued about 2 or 3 times though.
The head spin was only heightened about 2 months after when she left a personalised astrology report lying around which I read briefly but had to put down. It had day by day readings for the next couple of years (more like this is what you can expect to happen today and what you should and shouldn't do). It spoke of a very strong sense that 2019 for her was a huge year of change, that her source of happiness was her, reconnect with friends, and not let anything stand in her way for change and personal happiness. I asked her about that, and she told me that it was 'just a report' that she ordered when we sold our MH in October 2018 and read from time to time. I noticed too immediately after her ending our marriage that she was getting online tarot and horoscope readings, reconnecting with friends from her early years, and listening to Landslide by Fleetwood Mac.
After she ended it, I took it hard, but kept it absolutely to myself. I didn't pursue, snoop, try to change her mind or anything like that. I found Larry B very early, and his MLC theory really resonated with what I was going through. At nearly all times I think I maintained an outward display of positivity, calmness and dignity and didn't really question/argue any of her actions or words. I noticed when she wasnt working (she works evenings on weekends) she became even more engrossed with reading stories on her phone (she'd lie in bed for 4 or 5 hours doing this), and started going out with all the friends she 'neglected'. She acted as though nothing happened, and appeared very happy. She spent lots of money buying clothes and other stuff online which seemed way too young for her. She went on a weight loss binge, diet shakes laser treatment and her and my step daughter acted like I didn't exist, carrying on with laughing and giggling like teenagers and planning their holiday (they even played the Arian Grand song about breaking up with your boyfriend in front of me, whihc I ignored). A week or so later, I was told they'd booked a month long adventure holiday overseas and that our son would have to catch a bus after school to my work and wait til I finished so I could take him home - that absolutely stunned me. He's too young to be unaccompanied, which she knew.
I went along with her desire to live together and we looked at houses to buy and renovate. She made it clear several times it was for financial security and that we're never getting back together - I told her I accepted that. She pushed for a property settlement split as well, and during discussions in March I told her I couldn't live together and wanted to get my own rental home to have space to heal - she immediately said she was relieved I'd said that as she realised and was going to say she couldn't live with me either and also needed to heal (though 5 minutes earlier she said she was so happy). A few weeks earlier, I'd questioned the reality of living together as housemates when she pressed me for a decision. This enraged her, and told me she'd 'f..k me over before I did' and take all our money, and robotically repeating how the money was hers because of her inheritance, its the only good thing from her father, I had nothing when we met, etc. I'd never seen such rage, and her face physically changed, with the 'shark eyes' Larry said to watch out for. I was very mindful of not engaging with the monstering again, though we did have a few flare ups later which she agitated when discussing asset split and our son. She did apologise once a few days after she called me a 'money hungry c..t'. I adopted a position of letting it all wash over me and not reacting, as I knew deep down this wasn't the real her, and any reaction would inflame things. Indeed, my step daughter intervened once and told her mum off for her behaviour. On a couple of occassions, she championed her hated XH by telling me that at least he looked after her financially. Ironic, as early in our relationship they were so bad I had to comfort her and act as intermediary. I think she beleived that when she split with me, I would become some kind of maniac and make it very difficult - I think she had to get a restraining order against her XH. I imagine she was surprised when I didn't, and instead accepted what she was saying and told her how much I appreciated all she had done as wife and mother. It hurt me deeply when she conflated me with her father/XH, as I had always been sensitive, gentle and protective of her, and told her I'm not her father or XH, I'm still me, but she didn't hear it.
I don't know what happened with her. It was like a switch was flipped (and kept flipping). I looked into her childhood. During our marriage, she had told me a few bad things, but never opened up and shut down quickly, choking up with emotion, then back to 'normal' almost instantly. She hated her father (he was physically abusive) and her mother left her father early, and my XW and her sister fended for themselves a lot of the time, with my XW taking off from home to travel the world in her late teens. Her XH physically assaulted her and her mother was doubting of that. She always talked of freedom from her parents, 'nobody tells me what to do', and the only thing she learned from her parents was how not to treat kids. Her mother left her father when they were young, and forged her own path - she too is a strong, wilfull lady. Her mother's motto is "me, myself and I". My XW's mantra is "only you can make you happy". From knowing her for 15 years, I know her emotional shield is do not show any weakness to anyone, best form of defense is attack, don't apologise, and always have the last word.
Its all so very odd. I went from the person she said she was lucky to have, so good to her and I cant ever leave her and wanting to grow old and die and be buried together, to a sometimes hated stranger. Maybe she went from fear of abandonment to abandoning me first? Maybe she felt we were or were becoming codependant? Maybe it all became too much and I was the relief valve? She only told her mother a few months after this all happened. Her mother called me and said she was told I had verbally abused the kids which was why she left me. Her mother had a huge fallout, and she said my XW was just like her father and would end up like her father - all alone. They had another huge argument last month, and my XW spent 10 mins giving me the details, to which I listened quietly, she concluding she really only wanted to call me to tell me our son can't stay there anymore overnight.
I ended up moving out in April for my own emotional sanity. One moment I was persona non grata, the next moment she'd want to share a drink and watch telly and joke around like we used to. She wanted me to stay a little longer, saying there's no rush, and I'd always be part of her life - I told her I no longer live here, and this is the reality of her decision. As I was packing, I noticed she kept a huge bundle of love letters, romantic notes and cards that I had given her over the years - that really choked me up, but I didn't say anything. She wanted me to keep the CH, but I didn't want it. We share care of my son, and my XW and SD stayed with me for 2 weeks whilst the CH was being renovated. She was very normal during that period, and a couple of times seemed nostalgic even. She questioned me and I told her parts of my journey of healing, self discovery, my childhood issues and my inroads with my own psychological/childhood analysis and reflection in relation to my negativity, reactivity, emotional makeup and fear of conflict.
She seemed enthralled by what I've learned, and invited me a few times for dinner to her home to talk about it. Last time, as we stood in her kitchen talking, she said I looked amazing (whilst playing with her hair and earrings) and that her sister said the same (I'd been working out as it energises me). She wanted to keep catching up and talking about personal development and psychology over a whiskey or 2 - I said maybe. All up, we spoke about 4 times about this psychology stuff for about an hour each time. I noticed 3 things which made me feel empowered - she was seemingly enraptured, I did most of the talking without much interruption or judgment or change of subject from her, and she actually validated what I was saying. She had always complained 'we don't communicate' to which I'd reply I'd listen to her but when I wanted to speak, she wouldn't be attentive, be dismissive, would interrupt with her own comments, and then change the topic, or just look bored. She acknowledged this flaw many times, but never really changed. At the end of one of these recent talks about me, she said she still loves me (she's said this a few times on random occassions), but choked up and said I was 'closed off and emotionally unavailable and she couldn't take it any more', then abruptly left. After reading this forum, I'm not sure if I should continue with telling her these things though as maybe this is R talk? I did see though this as maybe being a 180 in showing emotional intelligence.
She tells me she's only hanging around with one or 2 friends now, and her other friend and her do pub trivia, and both wanted me to go with them so they could use my brains to win. They were all intent on salsa dancing, went once, then she got bored with it. She asked me to help her move some heavy furniture - I told her to organise a 'working bee' with all her 'friends', to which she said they all work and are busy.
Instead of her amazing huge 50th birthday party, she now wants a small dinner with a couple of friends and the kids and invited me (I said maybe). She also said she really doesn't know what she's going to do now, and maybe shouldn't have had kids (both of whihc I found very disquieting, as it was the 'old' her when she said this), and is going through menopause. I've noticed too she will repeat things over and over again. She bought a dress she wanted to show me as it was too small. Over a week, she told me that about 6 or 7 times. She has asked me several times out of the blue if I've been dating, and she's happy to do babysitting of our son. I told her truthfully I'm focusing on my own personal development. Out of the blue, she bought me expensive furniture whilst staying with me and told me if she won lotto she'd give me half because she can be a 'nice person'. In contrast, the other day she said angrily she wanted me to pay for our sons after school care whilst shes on holidays because I didn't pay her for fuel in picking up my son from school when I'm at work (saying this mere seconds after excitedly showing me her bathroom renos). Recently, she told me I'm a good man and great father and she didn't regret marrying me (previously during a rage saying she was an idiot for marrying her XH and a f'wit for then marrying me). She's always had a bit of a no filter 'stream of consciousness' talk style, but this has increased quite markedly.
We'd both visited psychics (we both enjoy psychics). She'd booked 2, but cancelled the 2nd as I think she liked the first one's reading. She said hers told her that I'd find a woman with a Uni Degree and be very happy - I said that'd be nice. She was also told there was a 'possible future' and she would flip houses and sell to old people who like smaller houses. Shes done that to the CH. We were going to demolish it as it was so bad, but she has superficially renovated it and ignored all the structural issues - I found her doing that to be financial suicide. My psychic said she has depression/anxiety with historic learned passive/aggression and that she is angry with herself, not me. I was also told she has a dark aura, and our auras were not in sync anymore and unless she got counselling there was no hope. My XW was always very mindful and acknoweldges not being empathetic at all, and after we separated thanked me for showing her how to be empathetic and easy going. According to Larry's theory, spouses are drawn together by similar painful childhood energies, and I think ours was abandonment.
Currently, I struggle with detachment. I understand the concept and rationale, but find it terribly difficult to apply the techniques and distance my ruminating thoughts. I was doing well in April and May, then regressed, and have found it difficult to get back on my feet. I lift weights, walk a lot, fish, go to the mall and window shop, bike ride, meditate and read about self improvement, as well as keep a schmick house. I'm thinking of doing Larry's enviromnental changer course, and have been seeing an IC for a few months. Reflecting, I do struggle with attachment issues to the closest people in my life at the time, which I trace to my childhood (things were recently revealed which I had forgotten or didnt know about). I really struggled with the suddeness and absoluteness of her change - we had everything mapped out. I don't like sudden change - I like stability, routine and predictability. I suppose I've come here to tell my story, get some views on what happened with her (ie is this MLC?), and perhaps some support if possible.
To my XW I present as having accepted, moved on and improved myself. There was no begging, pleading, pressure, crying or guilting from me. I knew based on what she's like that she would see this as weakness and view it with contempt, and its not my style anyway. We both choked up a few times when talking though during moments of normality. I resolved very early I would 180 on what I think she expected me to do (ie be like her father or XH), plus the fact when I go, it's going to be with a clear conscience in having taken the higher road, and being bad to women no matter how bad they are to me is not my nature, especially as she was my wife and the mother of my son.
I don't really communicate at all unless to answer a text or call, no R talks, and I continue to validate her with all her problems that pop up. I was always pretty good at this, and nearly every time after she finished work she would vent with me for sometimes up to an hour, or vent about her general frustrations, or bitch about her mother, sister, friends, the kids, colleagues etc etc. I 180'd with my negativity and procrastination around her, and tell her everything is fantastic, her renos are great, the problems she has with tradesman will work out, I'm doing well etc. As another 180, I've just reconnected with my step son, who was a huge source of conflict during the M (probably accounted for 90% of our R fights, and triggered in me an immense amount of anxiety) and who had huge problems himself. I nearly teared up when he told me I was more of a father to him than his own dad and how he had changed over the last year for the better and is the man he's becoming because of me. Ironically, a few years ago my XW kicked him out when he was 17 as he called her the worst thing you can say to a woman. I was stunned though that for about 6 months she wanted nothing to do with him and very cold and distant to him. She acted to him like she acted to me after separation - cold, calculating indifference. Now, she's saying he'll come back to live with her and she doesn't want to live with my SD as they fight too much. Further irony is a few weeks ago my XW called my SD that same bad word after they had a huge fight and my SD came to stay with me for a little while as she was so upset. My XW has always been very much say whatever you want without thinking and if someone doesn't like it who cares what they think, always have the last word, and act before thinking too much just for the sake of doing something.
Thanks so much for listening and sorry for my long post. Kind regards
Last edited by job; 09/07/1902:58 PM. Reason: edited a word
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Hello DS9, welcome to the forums! WOW is your W ever going through something. Sure sounds like MLC which can be triggered by menopause. It sounds like you're kind of a DB'ing natural, you've been doing a great job of giving her time and space and working on yourself and GAL'ing. The one thing that jumped out that you might want to work on is you still let her pull you back in all the time. She invites you over to talk about XYZ and you are far too quick to oblige. I would try to cut back on that and be more mysterious. It sounds like she's learning to miss you, but if you are too available then she'll take advantage of that and leave you in the friend zone. When she asks you about dating don't answer her. Just say something like "that's no longer your concern, is it." Keep in mind she's fired you as H, and as such you are no longer obligated to share details of your personal life with her (and shouldn't).
Also read the links Cadet posted, read DR, and read through the MLC forums. It will likely be a long time before she comes out of the tunnel. She'll pull you in and then push you away hard, and that will continue for quite some time if you let it. So try and work a little harder on that detachment!
I'm not sure if I should continue with telling her these things though as maybe this is R talk? I did see though this as maybe being a 180 in showing emotional intelligence.
I lean toward lots of listening and little talking for a man. Validate her feelings. You are the emotional rock.
Do not talk about, but rather show her your personal growth changes.
Keep working on your personal growth and being attractive. Seduce her back.
AS and R2c, thank you for your comments and welcome.
Thanks for the quotes link- I’ve already been through them they are gold. When I have a little more time I’d like to put some things to you about confidence and leadership so I could get some feedback.
Noted as to keep listening. It probably was lost in my long post but during the M I was the listener she was the talker. A complaint was we don’t communicate. When I used to talk she would glaze over and not seem interested etc. recently she said I was closed off and emotionally unavailable, and that she debriefed and vented with colleagues, not me, even though I was there for her to talk whenever she needed. Indeed when she would come home I’d go outside and greet her at the carport and she ‘d start venting from there. She would sometimes call at work and I’d always be available to talk about anything. I don’t know if this is rewriting history and or projection on her part? I don’t understand what she means by emotionally unavailable.
I thought maybe if I talked about the things I learned recently about my childhood and deeper psychological matters that would be a good thing particularly if she asked. One complaint was I never faced conflict and would disappear to our room, which I sometimes did do. I discovered this was something I did as a little boy when my parents fought and was my default reaction to conflict. I explained that discovery to her and the strategies I’d learned to confront rather than avoid, and to examine the subconscious story behind undersirable R behaviour. I told her that I had no idea how impactful our childhood is to our behaviour and an R relationship and it’s not our fault about my childhood but it’s my Responsibility to do something to address it.
Thanks again for any feedback kind regards
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
I don’t understand what she means by emotionally unavailable.
Google it.
I found this Statement:
Men who work from a place that it’s all about their needs, wants, and feelings even in relation to others are unavailable. Yes it’s good to know what you want, feels and need — however in relation to others, it’s about the matching of your wants, feelings, and needs with another person’s. Not about someone else or you negating each other’s wants, feelings, and needs.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I don’t understand what she means by emotionally unavailable.
Google it.
I found this Statement
Thank you. Yes, in some ways I fit the bill, but in a lot of ways, she does too ( a few years ago, she told me point blank she'll withhold from telling me things if she thinks I wont like it). Anyway, I think the wisdom here would suggest that I don't now start talking about my things that show my 'emotional availability', and to just keep listening and validating, with perhaps a balancing act to not always be so available to hear her out considering the aspect of not slipping into the friendzone (she used to call/text at anytime at my work, sometimes several times a day)?
Gotcha too in continuing to be the 'emotional rock' - thank you - prior to coming here, I'd pictured myself as continuing to be the 'emotional wharf'. Again, I'll need to be mindful of not being in the friendzone though.
Gotcha too as to seduction - I was a real daggy dresser when she met me. Mismatched clothes etc etc. She took a knife to all that, and loved buying me clothes that she liked me to wear, though got a little offended if I didn't like it. Now, I've paralleled, but not exactly replicated, the styles she wanted me to have and bought for me. Similar but different hair cut with holding cream (never used to wear hair cream), new wrist watches, very neatly trimmed beard (she liked me with a beard, but my one now is very trimmed), tighter fitting slacks and business shirts, lots of green, blue and grey colours (she loved my green eyes and said these colours accentuate them), different cologne (never used to wear it, but now I smear it on, particularly if I know we'll have contact). I'm off to see the XW's sister in a few days - I'll dress impeccably, as I know she'll relay it to the XW. Last time I saw my SIL, she commented how nice my cologne was. I've always been a soft, slow talker, so I've continued with that too. I used to have a very sharp wit and play on words style, but I've toned that down a lot.
My very modest ego to begin with took a huge punch to the guts when at BD she told me she felt nothing and wasn't attracted to me. Up til the end, we'd both regularly told and showed each other how attracted we were to each other.
Could I get some feedback please on the 'alpha male' concept I see here so often. I was not one during the M in the typical sense. Leadership attempts by me were met with either dismissal, criticism, or overruling. Where I did say or where we agreed I'd lead and handle it, it was usually overruled. Example - just before the split, we bought her a car. I'm a very good negotiator, she's not. XW and I agreed to a price between ourselves. The dealer didnt meet it by a few thousand dollars. We agreed we'd walk, as I knew they'd chase us for the sale. As we're about to do so, the XW tells the dealer we'll take the car at their price. During the good times, we often joked how XW wore the pants, and she was grateful that I was so accommodating. She is so used to that.
Given my current sitch, I don't think a 180 on now being alpha male would work - she reacts very badly to these types of men. She communicates with something along the lines of "DS, you need to blah blah blah", and I've ignored reacting to the 'you need to' command style commentary. I'm thinking to address that, if it pops up again I'll say something like "Thanks - I'll agree to/agree to do blah blah blah, can you please do blah blah blah". Or should I address directly the 'you need to' style of commentary with her? It is mildly annoying, but I'm used to it, as that's her style for a long time.
Thanks again guys - I really value the feedback!
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
So if I hear you correctly you are saying she reacts badly to men who like to lead and she likes to wear the pants in the family? Yet you have been submissive to her in your marriage and yet here you are on this board.
Did you read “No Mr. Nice Guy”?
Did you talk to your W after she pulled the stunt in the dealership?
Yes, yes and yes (this is one of the reasons I thought mlc) - bad reaction really to anyone who tries to ‘lead’, unless she agrees with the path and result. Looking back, I think it’s a reaction so that she is not being controlled, and that she never wants to follow the crowd and have freedom. I remember years ago I put my foot down firmly over a small issue that I was organising and she went ballistic screaming ‘nobody tells me what to do!” I’m nearly sure she learned this reaction from her childhood experience and her father. That’s not to say I didn’t have faults because I sure did with fear of conflict negativity sometimes grumpiness and stress popping up in my behaviour but I’m turning a new leaf and focusing on fixing this.
Yes fully agree I was submissive. Id sometimes would go along to get along. It wasn’t like I sat back and did nothing as 99% of the time I was content to go along and indeed was happy with what she wanted for her or the family. 80-90% of the time I did the nuts and bolts of the work management organisation of what we were doing, particularly major purchases such as houses cars etc as well as anything that needed procedural requirements as im good with attention to detail, paperwork negotiating bargaining etc etc
With the car I can’t remember exactly. She said she just wanted to do the deal and get out of there. She was sheepish and apologetic and I wasn’t shy in expressing about my disappointment. We then had problems with the dealer not complying with the contract that I was handling and told her very firmly not to pay them any money till I sorted it and I’d pay on delivery. Guess what- she already paid half the money because the contract said it was due and she just wanted to pay them to get it done and give the dealer the benefit of the doubt and worried they would ‘do something ‘ if we didn’t pay or if I continued to hammer them to fulfill their obligations. There were a few other jaw drop moments like that and she knew she had a weakness but just couldn’t help herself sometimes. I learned to accept that this was her and she wouldn’t change and whilst I would have preferred otherwise, I realised you take the good with the bad in marriage. She could often be impulsive. When we sold our house she was worried about leaping to a decision other than our plan and sincerely asked me to keep her in check and maintain the plan. I consider myself level headed and far from impulsive.
I’ve got nmmng and dr on order from my bookstore. Looking back, I think the reason we lasted as long as we did was because I was so accommodating and easy going, plus I actually enjoyed being a ‘nice guy’ and doing nice things as often as I could for my XW, as she had so many great qualities as well.
The reason I raise the leadership/alpha male dynamic was not to whinge about it but to get feedback on my sitch given how often veterans here like yourself almost always seem to say don’t be a beta, be an alpha because that’s what women end up wanting. Could you point me to anyone here who has a vaguely similar dynamic to me?
Thanks again
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
It all starts with respect. An alpha male will always stay true to his beliefs and values and will never allow anyone to disrespect him. The event you were organizing is a great example that you should have stuck to your guns, let her know here behavior was unacceptable and asked for an apology for her behavior. If she continued to display that type of behavior towards you then you have no choice but to walk and never look back. At first she wouldn't like it but she would slowly start to respect you.
I would also suggest you read " How to be a 3% Man" by Corey Wayne"
