Divorce because I betrayed her trust - I regret it

[DaB35]

Unchein, just ordered NMMNG on Audible.

Yes my therapist is excellent. She says I'm making very good progress and I've 'immersed' myself in the therapy.

[DaB35]

Update/Journal

I texted her tonight saying (a) hope her shoudler is feeling better and (b) hope she has a nice holiday.
I wanted to say "miss you" but didn't. That was hard.

She simply replied saying she will be fine, then asked me to hoover the house and empty the bins when she's gone!

I just replied "Yes I can do that." - is this ok validating?

I know she is being influenced by her sister and friends. I just hate that she's decided this in 3 months, ready to give up 8 years together and our beautiful house, and to willingly put herself in a really awkward position from a work point of view too.

[Traveler]

(a) hope her shoudler is feeling better and (b) hope she has a nice holiday.

She simply replied saying she will be fine, then asked me to hoover the house and empty the bins when she's gone!

I just replied "Yes I can do that." - is this ok validating?

Validation.. means that when your partner tells you about their day, or shares their feelings, you stay with them in the moment, honoring their experience. ... It's a way of showing you understand and accept their thoughts and feelings just as they are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Evwgu369Jw

Hi Dan,

Validation isn't about doing what your partner wants, it's about showing you understand them. Helping prepare the house for the real estate agent isn't validation, but is sensible if you want to sell the house.

[DaB35]

That's a lovely little film. I enjoyed that.
My wife is the fox, and I want to be the bear.

I don't want the divorce at all. But I don't want to stand in her way. I will co-operate but it is hard to know what I should and shouldn't do as I'm scared it looks like I too don't want to save what we have.

She's left for her week in Portugal today.

[AnotherStander]

I texted her tonight saying (a) hope her shoudler is feeling better and (b) hope she has a nice holiday.
I wanted to say "miss you" but didn't. That was hard.

She simply replied saying she will be fine, then asked me to hoover the house and empty the bins when she's gone!

I just replied "Yes I can do that." - is this ok validating?

OK well first of all, I get that you want to help her because of her hurt shoulder so go ahead and clean up her place but man, let that be the end of it. She isn't even giving you the friend-zone, she's giving you the housekeeper-zone. You absolutely, positively do not want to be her housekeeper. She already has no respect for you, do you think mopping and vacuuming and scrubbing her floors and taking out her trash are going to help her gain respect for you and see you as an alpha male?

Second I think you misunderstand what validation is. You might want to go back to the links Cadet sent you originally and read them again. Validation is seeking out someone's feelings and acknowledging and accepting them.

VALIDATION:
"I don't want to talk about it."
"You sound angry, is that how you feel?"
"No, I'm frustrated with you because of XYZ."
"Oh I can understand why that would frustrate you, I'm sorry you feel frustrated. Thank you for talking about it, I will work on being better about XYZ."

NOT validation:
"Clean my house."
"OK!"

[DaB35]

Guys I am LOST. This is why I'm doing all this. I am confused, panicking, and flailing about.

I just don't know what I'm supposed to do. I've only been married 3 years and now I've put myself and my dear W in this mess.

I want her to stop being so stubborn, and take a step back so she can see how much she is willing to simply chuck away, without even wanting to try to make things work.

Yes, I absolutely am aware of the hurt I've caused her. I'm nto denying it wasn't a serious issue. I have betrayed her trust. I regret it completely and am taking steps to overcome my problems.

The NMMNG book is great. Listening to it on Audible whilst I'm at work (on Lunch now).

I don't want this divorce. I want to try. She's given up. She doesn't want to let me show her what I've done so far to improve myself. The frustrating thing is that already I know I've improved. But she is kind of resigned. She is willingly putting herself in a financially unstable position for the next few years, and I want to be there to support her. I know she doesn't trust me but it's so tricky as we've been so close up til this point.

[AnotherStander]

Dan, like most of us your enemy early on is your lack of patience. You have got to find patience within yourself and embrace it. This situation is not going to resolve in a few days or weeks or probably even months. Realistically you're looking at a year or more of hard work. So roll up your sleeves and get to it. Drop the expectations.

She's given up, yes. For NOW. In a few months or a year she could very well change her mind. Happens all the time.

[DaB35]

I've decided not to send the letter.
But it felt good to write down how I felt. It's just on my computer. I want to try and memorise parts of it so that if we do end up getting into a discussion, I will be able to use some of what I've put in it to validate how she feels about everything.

We have both said how sad we are at the situation. (I hear an Elton John song in the background subtly there!).

I am being impatient, I realise that. If she does rethink and consider a R, I guess that will need to happen after divorce/house sale/split of assets/loss of some money. Just don't know how she can stand by and instigate this and wipe the slate clean in just 3 months. It feels too sudden.

Putting my musician's hat on - where romanticising everything and anything is the norm - she will be on holiday and miss me and reconsider. But we're not in a movie.

I am not going to text her at all whilst she is on holiday unless she contacts me. Right thing to do?

[sandi2]

Our sex life was up and down really. At the beginning it was fantastic. In the last couple of years or so less frequent. My W has a few illnesses and also often feels tired, so sometimes I would be in the mood for intimacy but then she'd say "I feel really tired" so I backed off. But then I wouldn't instigate anything for weeks, because she wasn't giving anything back either. She felt like she was "doing all the work". I just think it was lack fo communication; she didn't tell me there was a problem, and my male brain thought, "Oh she hasn't brought up a problem, so there can't be an issue."

Hi Dan, have these illnesses been identified/diagnosed by her doctor?

When you would approach her for sex, and she would tell you how tired she felt..........would you immediately leave her side and engage in the porn? Did you feel she was giving an excuse to not have sex?

But then I wouldn't instigate anything for weeks, because she wasn't giving anything back either. She felt like she was "doing all the work".

When you weren't instigating anything for weeks.........you were watching porn, right? You say it was b/c she wasn't give anything back "either". Please elaborate what you mean.

Do you know what she meant by "she was doing all the work"?

She hates porn in any form, and says that me being on these sites and commenting in a vulgar manner on some of the models etc means that I hate women and don't value our marriage and prefer them to her. Weirdly although she has a bit of a potty mouth and jokes about sex all the time, she is quite a prude really. Possibly due to a staunch Christian upbringing and even now my W and her sister have talked about feeling 'guilty' about sex. The family aren't religious at all now. But it clearly has had effects on them.

How soon did you discover your W was prudish? And by that, are we talking about trying something new........or just traditional sex, period.

You were "with" her for five years before tying the knot. Did you live together, or just having sex before M? Did she feel guilty about having sex before marriage?

Whether or not the family was very religious at that time, female pre-teens and teenagers can be taught by well-meaning parents that "good girls" do not engage in sex before M. It doesn't bother some girls, but others are guilty ridden if they have sex before M. I believe another taboo in the past (at least for girls) was looking at nude magazines, and of course, watching porn.

Going back to the old days, my mother told me that boys didn't marry girls who had sex with them before marriage. They would not bring those girls to meet his family, etc., b/c he would want a "good girl" for wife material. So, my preparation before actually dating, was learning that girls were divided into two categories........good or bad. I was told by older girls that when the boy takes a girl on a date, he will test her to see if she was a good girl or a bad girl. So, most of my dating experience was spent watching the boy's hands.

I think some parents missed the mark in teaching moral or religious virtue. The parents wanted to keep their daughters sexually "pure" until marriage. Many parents taught that pregnancy outside of marriage was the ultimate shame a girl could bring her parents. I was told by some young girls that their parents implied that engaging in sex destroys the girl's value and is, therefore, judged accordingly by others (b/c people talk and her reputation is ruined).

Society seems to have a much less rigid view these days. However, I think there are still a few ill-equipped mothers out there (or maybe fathers, too) trying to have that "talk" with their daughter, hoping to instill high standards/principles regarding everything that has to do with sex. I don't think parents or society has hit the right chord yet. Anyway.........I apologize for rambling.

She discovered in May 2019 that I have been using p**n sites since the start of our relationship. I started using the sites before I met her, around 2008. This progressed from looking, to signing up to a few free sites, to communicating with other users, to uploading things myself, to commenting on other user's material, to messaging/emailing 2 women from one of those sites. I paid them about £60 GBP to receive some photos from them. It then escalated to me sending some pics of my exes (normal, clothed) to one of the women, and also I sent a photo of her sister to one of the women and she commented on her in a vulgar way.

Why do you have pictures of your ex's, and what was the point of sending pictures of your SIL and ex's to women in porn? Were you making fun of your SIL & ex's? Do you feel that sending the photos were inappropriate?

The addiction stems from lack of self-esteem, fear of failure, low stress tolerance, fear of intimacy etc.

Okay, it's good that you can understand why you turned to porn, but you also need to grasp (as best you can) the affect it has on a wife to discover her H has been using porn. Since men & women are wired differently, it's safe to say she's not going to be able to set it over in some separate category as if it was not a factor in the MR. It will do no good to tell her it had nothing to do with her. I'm sorry she asked for so many gory details, b/c that will be very hard to erase from her brain.

I don't know how beautiful and sexy your W may be. IMHO, the average woman feels there is no way she can compete or measure up to a porn actress. Just as the average husband feels he cannot be like the hero lover in his W's romance novels.

Here's the thing, Dan, it went from some sex fantasy to being personal when you made contact with one of those women who engage in porn. I think your W may have over-reacted by sharing too much with her family too quickly, then again, I might have done the same thing, IDK. She was obviously very hurt, and whether you saw it as cheating.......your W did, apparently.

I encourage you to continue IC and improving yourself. Give your W the time and space she wants. Even if it comes to D, you may get back together once she has time to deal with this issue. I hope you will respond and answer my questions.

Post often, and continue reading.

[DaB35]

Thank you sandi for a comprehensive response.

Ok I'll go through the points you raise.

Hi Dan, have these illnesses been identified/diagnosed by her doctor?

When you would approach her for sex, and she would tell you how tired she felt..........would you immediately leave her side and engage in the porn? Did you feel she was giving an excuse to not have sex?"

Yes. She initially had certain food allergies. Due to incompetent doctors they prescribed her useless medications. She eventually got a few proper tests done and that identified a few things. She adjusted her diet. She had had these problems from before we met. She seems better now, but still has a few reactions to certain foods.

Also she had a few skin conditions or other intermittent health things. I think it was because she constantly overworked herself. She'd often stay in her study working for hours and not eat or drink.

If she was tired, I wouldn't immediately leave and watch porn no. I tended to do it when (a) she was out or (b) was in her study working and I knew she wouldn't leave for half an hour or so. However, I did do it when she was in the house, even when we were on the sofas downstairs - e.g. I had my iPad and she was on the other sofa. I would message one of the women. Just for the buzz of doing it. Not because I missed those women or preferred to be speaking to them than my W. It was merely the act of sending them a message secretly that gave me a buzz. I never even saw their faces.

When you weren't instigating anything for weeks.........you were watching porn, right? You say it was b/c she wasn't give anything back "either". Please elaborate what you mean.

Do you know what she meant by "she was doing all the work"?

Yes, she was always feeling like she wanted to instigate. I was watching porn frequently - not every day, but often - and despite me knowing that we hadn't been intimate for weeks, she wasn't bringing it up. Additionally, she admitted that she stopped instigating because she wanted to see if I would do it myself.

How soon did you discover your W was prudish? And by that, are we talking about trying something new........or just traditional sex, period.

It was a few years into the relationship. She never mentioned this when we met. She is only interested in traditional sex. Without getting into too much unnecessary detail on this forum, let's just say nothing "adventurous". I am similar really - the porn I would look at was not 'extreme' or 'outrageous' in any way certainly.

You were "with" her for five years before tying the knot. Did you live together, or just having sex before M? Did she feel guilty about having sex before marriage?

She was not a virgin when we met. I was. I lost my virginity to her at age 27. Think she was 19/20 when she lost hers.
We were having sex before M. We got together end of 2010/start of 2011, and began living together as bf/gf from January 2012. We moved in 2013, then bought our first house in 2016.

Why do you have pictures of your ex's, and what was the point of sending pictures of your SIL and ex's to women in porn? Were you making fun of your SIL & ex's? Do you feel that sending the photos were inappropriate?

I was in a message chat with one of the women. They asked about my exes. I talked about them. She then asked if I had any pics of them. I remembered that I had some on a CD in my room. I had this CD from before I met my wife. I simply kept a few pics of my exes on there (clothed, innocent ones, but they still look nice in them). I think at the time of the breakup with each of those exes, I thought I might want to reminisce about them. In actual fact what happened was I put six photos on a CD and forgot about it.

That CD ended up in a box of my other writable CDs/DVDs with my work on them, and it just followed me round when I was in a relationship with my W. In all honesty I had completely forgotten about it. I do not hold torches for my exes at all. I have no 'left over love' for them. When the woman in the chat asked me about the pics, I thought "I wonder if I have that CD still?" I found it and sent them to the woman. It's a chat with a "non-downloadable" feature so she wasn't able to save/share them further; they could only be viewed by her. She commented on their bodies etc.

Same with my SIL. My therapist has said that the addiction means you want to keep seeking a more heightened 'buzz'; i.e. your used to simply looking at the sites, so you go further to contact women, then you chat with them, then share pics of people you know. It's the addiction escalating. Doing something more to get the next buzz.

I did say some derogatory things about my exes and SIL. Again this was to get a reaction from the woman in the chat; she enjoyed talking about my exes and said they were hot etc. I don't actually have feelings for my SIL (I've said before in my first post, I find her really irritating and never really liked her. I tolerate her), nor do I have feelings for my exes. I enjoyed reading the woman's comments on them. They didn't really comment on my SIL, just my exes. I wonder if my putting the pic of SIL up was to get my own back for her not being kind to my W a few times or being bossy etc. How immature. I look back at it now and am horrified at what I did.

My W saw ALL OF THIS.

I know that it was inappropriate. I just found myself in a situation where the addiction was escalating and blurring fantasy and reality. That was the buzz I was seeking at that time. However, I know that was WAY too far.

To be honest, there were times in the last year or so when I was feeling TIRED of the addiction. Thinking, "I should really stop this." But it had a hold of me and couldn't reach out for help, mainly due to pride. I thought I could deal with it alone, without professional help, or help from W or family or friends.

I don't know how beautiful and sexy your W may be. IMHO, the average woman feels there is no way she can compete or measure up to a porn actress. Just as the average husband feels he cannot be like the hero lover in his W's romance novels.

My W is gorgeous. I'm not just saying that as I'm married to her. Her hair isn't quite 100% red, nor is it strawberry blonde, it's a unique in-between colour that I've never seen before. Her face is lovely, very beautiful. Pale skin, not too short, lovely body, very sexy, lovely smile, and I loved her laugh. She has always thought she was unattractive. UI never understood why, as lots of guys would check her out - she never noticed!

This is the thing - I always felt unattractive too. I'm not very muscle-y for example. Even my W would jokingly say "You have the body of a 19 year old!" even when I was in my 30s. It'd upset me when a well-built guy would appear on TV and my W would say something like "ooh he's nice. I like a nice torso!" and I'd feel really awful and that I'd let her down. I KNOW - I should have just started going to the gym, but being stuck in the addiction phase meant I just accepted that I'm not that attractive etc. and just tried to be a nice guy instead for her.

I was always kind to my W. She even said this to me after she discovered all this "You are not a bad person" she has said several times. "You've been so kind to me." I would support her in her work/businesses and help round the house and do things for her to make her life easier. I wasn't lazy.

Here's the thing, Dan, it went from some sex fantasy to being personal when you made contact with one of those women who engage in porn. I think your W may have over-reacted by sharing too much with her family too quickly, then again, I might have done the same thing, IDK. She was obviously very hurt, and whether you saw it as cheating.......your W did, apparently.

Yes I understand this completely. The 2 women I contacted were simply random members of the public who did this "on the side". Yes I'm annoyed at my W for over-sharing everything with her family and some of her friends. To most she is simply saying I cheated and not going into detail.

I encourage you to continue IC and improving yourself. Give your W the time and space she wants. Even if it comes to D, you may get back together once she has time to deal with this issue. I hope you will respond and answer my questions.

I am giving her space. I am only contacting her if she contacts me.

Thank you for taking the time to analyse what I've said.