13 Let's hope it isn't starting again

[hoosjim]

Hey, Steve. Sorry you're having to go through this again, man. I've been thinking about your sitch a lot these past couple of days, particularly given how our cases have, almost to an unthinkable degree, tracked so closely, and given how I myself just went through a WW relapse scare in the past two weeks after I'd been away from the boards for a while... kinda like you. Idk... maybe we're both supposed to be back here right now to give each other help and support. Im not a big believer in coincidence.

I do think a good 180 for me is to observe this thing from afar. I think the reason gathering more Intel is important is because I'm pretty sure that if she had another EA, I'm done. Been through it twice now, 3rd time will be the final strike. Maybe my feelings will change if this is a real flare up, but in the past I've not been patient enough to observe and see how far it would go. Granted this guy lives hours away in another country, and it's likely that it's just her getting her craving for being wanted from afar, but I'm going to work observe and then make a decision based on what I ultimately find. But likely this would be the last straw.

You mentioned prayer a couple of times recently, and I would certainly urge you to VERY prayerfully consider how you approach this. I don't know what answer(s) you will get from the man upstairs (maybe we here on this board are the answers you'll get-- remember the joke about the guy on his roof in the flood praying for help!), but my take on this, from learning from all of the experienced minds on this board, and from my own experience with my WW, is that you should act on this now and not wait. The reason I say that is that it seems from looking at your threads (and here I have to admit that i have not done a deep dive on them) that you two, as with me and my own W, are in a better, even a much better place now than you were a year or so ago when you started piecing. Things change-- your MR is much closer to being "repaired" than it was a year ago, and you and your W, presumably, have a closer and more open relationship (again, this is just my take from a precursory reading of your recent threads). While I, like you, am in a situation (which my W is very aware of) where there will be zero tolerance for another affair (one strike and you're out), I am no longer, due to the evolution of my MR, in a sitch where any infraction or slip up is going to end my MR. Last summer? Different story. If, last June, just a few weeks after we started piecing for real, my W had pulled something like she did two weeks ago, secretly accompanying her VERY wayward bff to the bar she used to frequent with OM, we would have been DONE on the spot... no discussion. Now, however, we are in a different place... trust has been rebuilt, intimacy has been re-established... we are open and talk about things.. there is some strength and foundation to the relationship... and neither of us wants to lose that relationship. But here's the thing... people aren't perfect-- we are all broken in one way or another and we all fall short of what God wants for us. Part of the beauty and blessing of a MR is that you have a partner to help keep you on the straight and narrow. Now here, your W unquestionably made a mistake... a very serious one, as did my W two weeks ago.

As with my W, it is open to differing interpretations as to just how serious, but, even under the most charitable interpretation it is still serious enough to threaten the MR, especially given her history and y'all's history together. You now have to make a choice as to what you can live with in your MR given what has happened and the possible interpretations. But I would urge you to ask yourself this question: What is the worst-case scenario here? It seems to me that the worst case would be that she has slipped back into full waywardness and is engaging or actively preparing to engage in an EMA. If that is the case, then you, as you have said, are done. In such a case, you'd have nothing to lose by confronting her, as the worst case there is, also, MR over. But what if she just screwed up, made a bad decision, as my W did? You say she has been a gamer? I have some experience with gaming, both myself and through my sons, and i can tell you the video game addiction is a real thing. Add in the "spice" of past online EAs and it can become doubly so, I would imagine. Recovering from addiction is not easy, and requires help and support-- if she has too much time on her hands, or even was online and saw something about gaming or a game she had played, it would not be at all unusual for her to think "no harm in checking it out" and loading up a game, and from there she's in contact with predators like the dude who's email you saw. If that's the case, it's equally possible that she is still, at least for the moment, committed to the MR and to being with you (as was my W when she made her mistake), HOWEVER.... if she continues down that path unimpeded, all of that could change as she gets trapped by the "hormone rush" fix of the online interactions, starts losing respect for you, falls deeper "in love" with her online meet-ups, etc etc. If she is not currently in an affair, and not currently wayward, and is still indeed committed to reconciling with you and being in the MR, then I would posit that the worst case scenario to confronting her is some short term pain as she confronts what she did and cries it out and you two talk and reset and get to work repairing the damage. If your marriage is truly stronger and truly on the path to full reconciliation (And based on what you have posted it certainly appears likely that it is), then it should certainly be able to withstand a discussion about her mistake in this instance. The tell will be if she immediately comes clean about it. Another tell will be whether or not she objects to an invasion of her "privacy" (my W did not so object-- we have all each others passwords now and have agreed to fulltime "on" of our phone trackers-- and keep in mind that, for cheaters and WWs, "privacy" is code for "secrecy"... a secrecy in which deception and affairs can thrive.) Whether she does or does not come clean and/or object to your opening her emails, you'll have your answer. Perhaps the approach, when you make it, should be to give her the option to tell you, as artista's husband did in the way she described on my thread-- Call her or talk to her and say "Is our marriage over?" And when she objects or says "No, why?" Tell her, "I know you're hiding something from me, i'm going to give you one chance to come clean about it." Maybe the other WW experts can chime in here on this.

My inclination since the discovery of the email was to become very attentive. Even successfully initiated sex yesterday morning. But maybe I need to back off. I guess this time is different because she didn't ask for space, like she did during our such last year. I think distancing could do more damage.

I think your second instinct is the correct one... you back off. In either case (she's wayward or she just screwed up) it's the right move. If the former, and you still want to give her another chance and save the MR, she'll be in a state where she doesn't "want" you except as plan b in which case pursuing her is only going to push her away or make her resent you... if the latter, she needs to know she's made a bad mistake and that there are consequences. Pursuit and distance... it works in virtually all situations with virtually all relationships. Distance yourself, and not just a little but alot, to the point of cutting yourself off... as I did with my W when i discovered her mistake, and chances are she will approach you... perhaps even in desperation and in tears as my W did. That would give you the opening to discuss the matter, either by directly confronting her ("I know") or by giving her the chance to come clean ("I know something's up, I'ma give you one chance to come clean if y ou want to save this MR")

Either way, I am a STAUNCH advocate for stomping out affairs before they can get going... If she gets going down that path, it will become more and more attractive to her, she will start getting addicted to that thrill again,, and she will be lost to you. But she may not yet be lost...My W was not lost even though that was my initial thought/fear when i made my discovery. My feeling on this is that you should approach/confront her and find out. Either way, you'll have your answer and it seems to me it is a no-lose proposition to do so.

Hang in there buddy, my thoughts and prayers are with you, and I'll be trying to check in from time to time, more often than i have been.

[hoosjim]

Hey, just noting for the record if the moderators are watching, there is a superfluous paragraph in my post, above. I missed the editing "window" and then did a poor job of explaining my edit to the moderators with the "report" tab and you only get one shot at that.

My third paragraph beginning with "If she is not currently in an affair..." can be deleted, as the edited text for that paragraph is already in the preceding paragraph. If y'all are ambitious (Cadet or whoever is on the job today) you could also put a paragraph break in what is currently that very long second paragraph at this point:

"...with her online meet-ups, etc etc. [PARAGRAPH BREAK]

If she is not currently in an affair, and not currently wayward, and is still indeed committed to reconciling with you and being in the MR, then"

Thanks, and sorry for any confusion.

[SteveLW]

Here is a question, is it possible for the reformed wayward to dabble in waywardness, maybe a bit of a relapse, without going full blown wayward again?

That's kind of like asking if an alcoholic can have a little drink occasionally without going off the wagon. She may not be as "reformed" as you thought. She may behave better around you. It's what's in the heart that's the real issue. I think she does not find fulfillment in homemaking, and has low self esteem. She gets a high when a stranger tells her she's beautiful, sexy, talented, etc. However, when hidden behind a phone or computer, it usually doesn't stop there. The farther away OM is, the braver she feels. So, it's going to progress into phone sex, using the camera, etc.

I think it's quite possible that she backslid, and either continued and has been hiding it for a while, or she decided to stop and trashed the messages. That's why I was asking how many months has it been since you verified.

Anyone can relapse, especially if they are not happy and are looking for something to fill that empty spot. I just think it's easier to relapse in the early stages of withdrawal. IMHO, the WW needs to be informed about how affairs are addictive and how it works in her brain. She needs a plan, a guide to show her how to cope and avoid pitfalls. WW's need accountability. That's why I support transparency until she is past the withdrawal period. Way past it.

If she backslid, I don't think it was due to you falling down on 180's. From what I have seen, it's been you working and improving Steve. What has she done since reconciling? The WW has a lot of inner work to repair. Yes, her overt actions and attitude are important, but her work on the heart determines her success, IMHO.

Is she still taking Zoloft?

Thanks Sandi. Great insight as always. It has been a few months since I "verified".! And I will say that this appears to be a relatively new engagement with the Canadian fellow. Those 4 messages were the only ones in the trash folder which means those were the only messages she trashed, out she hadn't gotten around to emptying her trash. I am guessing the later considering her main email account had zero messages in trash. I base it being fairly new on her online game record for and against this guy being relatively low.

She had become a bit slothful since reconciling. As I said, she has really lapsed on the housework. I'm thinking primarily because the newness of the new house wearing off. She also claims to love the new house so much that she just enjoys being in it. Her mom was in visiting for a few weeks and was a little surprised that my W doesn't want to go places and likes to stay home. Surprised isn't the right word, maybe more disappointed.

Your right, outwardly she is doing and saying everything right. Consistently. Very devout at church again. Never missing, having her lesson done, preparing to teach her midweek Bible class. Very loving and affectionate and attentive to me. I really expected to find nothing in my snooping, even as innocent as her two responses appear. My guess is this guy used her have profile to find her on Facebook to contact her and hard press her to interact based on her profile pic.

Yes she's still on both medications.

[Cadet]

Hey, just noting for the record if the moderators are watching, there is a superfluous paragraph in my post, above. I missed the editing "window" and then did a poor job of explaining my edit to the moderators with the "report" tab and you only get one shot at that.

My third paragraph beginning with "If she is not currently in an affair..." can be deleted, as the edited text for that paragraph is already in the preceding paragraph. If y'all are ambitious (Cadet or whoever is on the job today) you could also put a paragraph break in what is currently that very long second paragraph at this point:

"...with her online meet-ups, etc etc. [PARAGRAPH BREAK]

If she is not currently in an affair, and not currently wayward, and is still indeed committed to reconciling with you and being in the MR, then"

Thanks, and sorry for any confusion.

I hope it is right now.

The best thing for the future edits is to write it out in the notify so we can copy and paste it.

[SteveLW]

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Hey, just noting for the record if the moderators are watching, there is a superfluous paragraph in my post, above. I missed the editing "window" and then did a poor job of explaining my edit to the moderators with the "report" tab and you only get one shot at that.

My third paragraph beginning with "If she is not currently in an affair..." can be deleted, as the edited text for that paragraph is already in the preceding paragraph. If y'all are ambitious (Cadet or whoever is on the job today) you could also put a paragraph break in what is currently that very long second paragraph at this point:

"...with her online meet-ups, etc etc. [PARAGRAPH BREAK]

If she is not currently in an affair, and not currently wayward, and is still indeed committed to reconciling with you and being in the MR, then"

Thanks, and sorry for any confusion.

Thanks hoos!! Awesome stuff here. Lots to think about and consider. I need to pray hard, and I agree we have many parallels. I'm thinking of going the back off approach, and then when she asks I'll take artista's approach of asking her if there is anything she'd like to tell me. As I said originally, if I go there direct route she may just shut down my one avenue to spy. The PC being logged off is a huge red flag by the way. She was not logging off that for all these months.

I will definitely take action at some point. My only concern is stopping an affair before it starts. If I have to do that, do I really want to stay with someone like that?

[hoosjim]

I will definitely take action at some point. My only concern is stopping an affair before it starts. If I have to do that, do I really want to stay with someone like that?

At the end of the day, only you know the answer to that.

Did you ever see the movie "Minority Report" with Tom Cruise? Good, somewhat underrated, movie. It is based on a novel by Phillip K. Dick (who wrote the story on which Blade Runner is based) and concerns a near-future world in which pre-cognitives can predict crimes before they occur, which allows the police to arrest the criminals and punish them or imprison them... before the crime is even committed!! The film raises very compelling questions about guilt and free will and accountability... Can our futures be changed? Don't we always have the opportunity to choose a different path?

Look, your W definitely, at the very least, made a bad mistake... but does that necessarily mean she is a lost cause? Are all people who make mistakes (basically everyone) lost causes? Can our future courses not be changed/chosen? And can we not help others stay on the right path? If... IF she is "all in" on the MR, and truly wants to be with you as things now stand, then you two are partners, and helping find the right path would not be out of line (contrast this with a WW in the throws of an affair, who typically needs to hit rock bottom, see the consequences, and find her own way out.) The point I am trying to make is that ANYONE can fall... anyone. But sometimes people don't have to go all the way down the path of committing a particular sin even though they may have taken the first step. Idk what your W is up to here... really only she and the almighty do... but as Sandi2 has noted she is a recovering WW... an addict in some sense, and addicts need help and support. Before she went down the WW path, she was someone you chose (and she chose you, too) to be your mate for life. She changed, of course... but maybe if the two of you had done things differently, she never would have gone down that path. Part of the repair/reconciliation process is identifying the mistakes and weaknesses that got the marriage (and the individuals in the MR) in trouble in the first place... and seeing that those weaknesses are addressed and that those mistakes are not repeated ... But you will never eliminate the weaknesses completely... we're human.

Are you guys currently in counseling? Sounds like maybe that wouldn't be a bad idea to at least be checking in from time to time. My W and I are doing a check in with ours in a couple of weeks.

Hope this helps.

[Ready2Change]

a good 180 for me is to observe this thing from afar..., but in the past I've not been patient enough to observe and see how far it would go.

I believe this is your best choice right now. Observe and collect Intel. At some point, you will know what you are truly dealing with, and then you can take the appropriate action.



Read though this thread. Lots of nuggets of wisdom:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2039619
RobX is wise, You might be able to massage this to fit your sich:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2051316#Post2051316
I like how coach worded this:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2045995#Post2045995



This quote stands out "Our job as the man is to protect the relationship if it is important." I believe it is important to take actions BEFORE she crosses your line of no return.

[SteveLW]

We are not. Our biggest stressor right now is that the old house still hasn't sold. Financially we are fine. Not in danger of losing either house, etc, but we don't have the discretionary spending cash we are used to. This means we are on hold with projects for the new house, etc. MC is something we want to continue, not can't right now. As soon as the house sells we want to do an every other week MC session.

[SteveLW]

a good 180 for me is to observe this thing from afar..., but in the past I've not been patient enough to observe and see how far it would go.

I believe this is your best choice right now. Observe and collect Intel. At some point, you will know what you are truly dealing with, and then you can take the appropriate action.



Read though this thread. Lots of nuggets of wisdom:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2039619
RobX is wise, You might be able to massage this to fit your sich:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2051316#Post2051316
I like how coach worded this:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2045995#Post2045995



This quote stands out "Our job as the man is to protect the relationship if it is important." I believe it is important to take actions BEFORE she crosses your line of no return.

Thanks R2C, I will dive into these tonight.

[hoosjim]

And I should add because my last post sounds particularly conciliatory that I do still think your "step back and create distance" inclination is the right one... maybe even a LOT of distance like I did... to emphasize the point that she DID make a mistake and that it was hurtful and damaging... and then use that and her response thereto as an opening to broach the subject or an invitation for her to come clean. You'll have to judge for yourself what the appropriate amount of distance is. For me it was easy-- I just felt betrayed and not particularly close to her... and i behaved accordingly. She definitely noticed.

Also, Sandi's point about your W being made aware of the addictive nature of affairs--it really is like a drug-- is spot on. She should really have a counselor, either your MC or an IC, who is familiar with this and willing to address it. Our own MC thankfully was VERY familiar with this dynamic (she's just the best-- can't say enough good things about her) and her IC sessions with my W were VERY productive and VERY helpful to my W, as was her familiarity with this dynamic during our joint sessions.