Steve, she knows what she did was wrong, otherwise why lie about it. So I'm not buying her story that it helps your relationship and that she is fine with continuing it whether you like it or not. And honestly I think the lying is WAY worse than the convo she had with the guy (or at least the ones you saw). She's being defiant, selfish and rebellious. This is clearly not something you can tolerate, so it's good that you let her know this. How you deal with it would be similar to dealing with a rebellious teen, and there are a lot of good resources on the internet for that so you might Google "dealing with teen defiance" and do some reading. Some of it is specifically parent/ child but a lot of it fits for dealing with a WW too.
[She just sent me the passwords to all of her accounts.
If she's shown dishonesty and flirting with strangers 3x, this may be a lifelong struggle.
Originally Posted by "Steve85"
I'm in no position to judge her.
You may not be in a position to judge her goodness or badness, but you are in a position to judge whether or not you want to stay married to her. Her follow-up actions may make a decision easier.
Originally Posted by "AnotherStander"
And honestly I think the lying is WAY worse than the convo she had with the guy (or at least the ones you saw).
Agreed. The lies and reaction seemed strong, for what Steve85 discovered.
Every sitch is unique. I'm interested in what you have to share, but I will say I'm not quite sure I agree we are where you guys were last spring. While I agree she had relapsed into WW status, it is no where near as bad or as deep as it was in 12/2017-2/2017 Maybe I'm reading it wrong but she's already taking steps to try to fix things. Maybe they are token or have no depth themselves. But on 12/23/2017 she was resolute that she was done. That she wanted out. And that there was no path to reconcilation. Maybe she's stalling this time. We'll see.
While, as you say, every sitch is different, I'm going to give you a refresher into my own experience, in hopes it might be helpful/useful:
Prior to BD, my W and I effectively had no relationship. We were in a SSM, we weren't even really friends, and nearly all of our interactions were tense or hurtful. After BD, it became clear that my W was a WW, was having an A with OM, and nearly fully embroiled in that lifestyle. ILBINILWY, wanted nothing to do with me intimately, told me she was done with the MR and wanted out, and told me so often, etc. For right or wrong, I stuck it out in the house... I figured out what was going on but W did not "know I knew", and when i made known to her i knew i insisted on change and that the A had to end. You probably remember our ups and downs, but... through this we were going to counselling-- counselling that she was clearly, at first, only going to to "check the box" so she could get out of the MR with a "clear conscience". After a couple of false starts, we had a mini blow up in late summer of 2017, she "came clean" for the first time on her own (with some prodding) about continuing to contact OM, and agreed to more regular counselling. We started "hanging out" on a semi-regular basis, doing fun things and trying to reconnect.. which we did. We became friendly with each other again, and even made some mild forays into intimacy, though nothing major and no open-mouthed kissing. She was saying she wanted to put in the effort to try to save the marriage but that she still didn't feel fully comfortable with "us." I thought we were in the start of true "piecing". Dates got cozier, we were doing more together, seeing the counselor every other week... but we couldn't quite get over the hump. We weren't being fully intimate with each other... she was still holding something back. Even though she was warmer towards me, thought our relationship was better than it had been in a long time and maybe "better than ever", and we were parenting cooperatively,there was still something in her way. (Does this sound at all familiar?) Turns out, the something in her way was the OM and her wayward lifestyle... she hadn't fully given it up. He had contacted her by phone a few weeks after our August blow-up and reset and she had been talking to him periodically (and secretly) when she was at work. Not seeing him, i am pretty sure, but talking regularly, and he was of course blandishing her with praise, telling her how "into her" he was, etc etc. (she told me all of this later, in counselling). Thing is, she was hooked. An addict, of sorts. She couldn't fully give that up, and even though she did, briefly, once he called her up again she didn't want to give up that extra little rush she got from their phoncons. Eventually, of course, this led to her going to meet him at the gym in April of last year (2018)... where i caught them talking together when I went there to surprise her. Like you are now, I was shocked. I had thought we were on the right path, that she had changed, that she had given up the wayward lifestyle and entertaining flirtations from other men... but she had not. She, like your W, wanted and thought she could have both... she even told me this several times though not in those exact words: "I need to do this my way... I think i can separate my feelings for you from my feelings for him... I can be faithful to you and still maintain that 'friendship', etc etc". Does this also sound familiar? This is why i said i thought your sitch may be more similar to mine a year ago rather than now-- after what you thought was your "reset" and the start of "piecing" your W, like mine, never fully gave up her wayward lifestyle, was still clinging on to it, and wanted to have both relationships. Maybe, like mine, she only truly will when she realizes she might lose you.
With me, only at THAT point, after her continued bit of waywardness came to light, we had our major turning point. Up until then, she hadn't seen the "harm". She had warmed up to me, and wanted the relationship we were rebuilding, but she also still wanted to keep that relationship with OM... and she didn't see the harm or consequences (or didn't want to acknowledge them...until i found them together and walked out cold. Then it hit her in the face: She wanted that new relationship with me, to be a complete and happy family with her children, but her lifestyle and actions and carrying on with the OM was going to destroy and prevent that from happening. For two weeks, she was convinced we were done... and she hit rock bottom. She went, on her own, in desperation, to our MC, got herself into IC with her, and MC eventually brokered a meet-up and reconcilliation between us... But my W, on her own, had to give up that other relationship and lifestyle, and to do so she had to feel the pain of loss. Do you have any experience with addiction? I do... it runs in my family. An addict cant be "forced" to change "Wife, I forbid you to play games on the computer"... rather, they have to choose to do so themselves, but they will often do so after hitting rock bottom or when faced with a profound loss: "I refuse to share you with other men, even online, or to keep my children in a house where this lifestyle is being lived."
I see similarities in our W's... it sounds like yours, as mine, had a christian upbringing and, at least somewhere down deep, is a believer and has those values and knows what she is doing is wrong.. Sounds like she also values family to a degree. I know that Sandi says "wayward is wayward" and, to the extent you are talking about the behavior patterns I agree. However, I do think that some WW's are more... redeemable(?)... than others. I know that my W's strong basis helped give her a foundation to "come back to the light"... and I am hoping (and praying) that yours has that same foundation. It's why I wouldn't necessarily completely throw in the towell on your hopes for the MR. THAT SAID--- the core tenant of DB-ing is taking care of yourself, being the best you, the best father you can be... and i just don't see how you can do that when you are "sharing your W" or when you haven't gotten cast-iron guarantees and set cast-iron boundaries to protect yourself. She may very well need to see you walking away to jar her into getting the help she needs.
I know you love her, and that your christian background and general compassion is telling you to reach out to her, to comfort her, to show her your love "no matter what"... but you need to think about whether or not that is what she , and you, really need right now. The pastor at my church has several times preached a message concerning the tension, and difference, for Christians, between "love" and "access". I will probably not convey it nearly as well as he does , but it goes something like this: As Christians, we are taught to love everyone, even our enemies... but loving someone in the christian sense does not mean that you necessarily give that person access to your life. You might wish them well, pray for them, even offer them assistance when they are in peril, but that is different from allowing them intimate access to your life. You would not, for instance, make it a practice to maintain a close friendship and hang out with someone or a group of people who were heavy drug users or philanders, nor would you maintain a marriage with someone who was abusive... or unfaithful. Those things are hurful to you, to your family, and, at the end of the day, to your heart. You need to guard and protect your heart from un-Godly and un-Christian things, even as you have compassion for those who live those types of lifestyles. I think this is similar to some of the teachings of DB-ing... how we are not rude or obnoxious or hateful to our WAW's/WWs, but how we do keep their "trainwreck" and hurttul/harmful behaviors and lifestyles OUT of our own "inner" lives. Sometimes the best love is tough love.
I'd urge you to think and pray on all of this... not to necessarily do what any one of us on these boards says to do, but to prayerfully consider it and act accordingly.
Hang in there, man.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Steve, she knows what she did was wrong, otherwise why lie about it. So I'm not buying her story that it helps your relationship and that she is fine with continuing it whether you like it or not. And honestly I think the lying is WAY worse than the convo she had with the guy (or at least the ones you saw). She's being defiant, selfish and rebellious. This is clearly not something you can tolerate, so it's good that you let her know this. How you deal with it would be similar to dealing with a rebellious teen, and there are a lot of good resources on the internet for that so you might Google "dealing with teen defiance" and do some reading. Some of it is specifically parent/ child but a lot of it fits for dealing with a WW too.
AS after her initial rebellion to my confronting, she has now turned quite contrite. Uninstalled all games from her phone. She's shared all passwords. She unlocked her phone.
Now obviously she could have a hidden email account. As I've often told other posters, if someone wants to engage in a behavior, they'll find a way.
I have huge concerns here guys. She no longer has her business. Now she is giving up everything that occupied her time. I almost feel like I'm opening her up to a full blown PA. These guys she's engaged with have been hundreds of miles away, even thousands, and in other countries. What if her attention now turns to someone local that I can't track. She could leave her phone at home and take off anywhere. I know, if she's going to do that then I've got bigger problems, but I'll always wonder if my actions last night pushed her to that.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
[She just sent me the passwords to all of her accounts.
If she's shown dishonesty and flirting with strangers 3x, this may be a lifelong struggle.
Originally Posted by "Steve85"
I'm in no position to judge her.
You may not be in a position to judge her goodness or badness, but you are in a position to judge whether or not you want to stay married to her. Her follow-up actions may make a decision easier.
Originally Posted by "AnotherStander"
And honestly I think the lying is WAY worse than the convo she had with the guy (or at least the ones you saw).
Agreed. The lies and reaction seemed strong, for what Steve85 discovered.
CW nothing you say here can be disagreed with. Obviously I want to see if she follows up full transparency with IC.
Last edited by Steve85; 08/28/1904:56 PM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve, Just caught up on your thread. Sorry you are going through this.
I know your sitch [censored] and it is hard for you to not get emotional about this but reading through your thread, I feel you are trying too hard and that is very unattractive (sorry for the 2x4). You have already confronted her, so IMHO it may help to take a step back and not talk to her about this for a couple of days. Tell her she broke your trust and you need time to process what happened before further conversation. Don't have any R talks for a few days and do things by yourself. You need to show you are alpha and disrespecting your boundaries is not something trivial. Let the tension between you subside first before you talk about the sitch with her. I feel that talking when things are tense will only be counterproductive.
I know your sitch [censored] and it is hard for you to not get emotional about this but reading through your thread, I feel you are trying too hard and that is very unattractive (sorry for the 2x4). You have already confronted her, so IMHO it may help to take a step back and not talk to her about this for a couple of days. Tell her she broke your trust and you need time to process what happened before further conversation. Don't have any R talks for a few days and do things by yourself. You need to show you are alpha and disrespecting your boundaries is not something trivial. Let the tension between you subside first before you talk about the sitch with her. I feel that talking when things are tense will only be counterproductive.
^^^I agree with this.
Even if this is no longer fullblown waywardness but just a "slip"... though from her initial reaction it sounds like more than that... she needs to know that this is not trivial... that your trust will not so easily be gained. She should have to work for it.
And as to your worries about pushing her towards a PA.... don't. You may actually push her that way by smothering her with attention and being too accessible. If she is inclined to have a PA she is going to have a PA... and you'll be better off without her. The best thing you can do is be the best, strongest, most alpha "Steve" you can be right now... and that's probably also the best thing you can do for her. Pursuit/Distance, and you'll never be more attractive than when she thinks she might lose you. In fact, in my experience it may be helpful for a W, especially a formerly WW, to always have that possibility (losing you) in the backs of their minds... not front and center, but somewhere back in there. The pain of loss or of near loss likely accomplishes that JMHO...
One more thought... if you do decide to eventually take her back (and i can't say strongly enough that i don't think you should be too "quick" to do so, but make her wait a bit) that you need to be crystal clear about boundaries and that this is a zero-tolerance situation going forward... and you need to be willing to act on that when you say it because she will be able to tell if you're not. (And this is another place where actually seeing you walk away and thinking she's lost you at some point can come in helpful).
Last edited by hoosjim; 08/28/1905:13 PM.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
