#14 Here we go again

[SteveLW]

Hi Steve,

I am sorry you find yourself in this sitch again. You said you are open to hearing all advice/opinions, so I wanted to weigh in. You have a lot of great people in your corner, so I am not sure how much I can add, but I will try. I also acknowledge that we don't see eye to eye all of the time, and so you can take what I say with a grain of salt.

I think it is safe to say that as far as Newcomers go, you have dove in deeper than anyone on the boards and dedicated much of your life to DBing and helping others. You have only been on the boards for 18 months and have written over 5600 posts! That is amazing -- I don't even know how you do it! ... but perhaps in turn you have become your own worst enemy? I do wonder if DBing is on the forefront of your brain for so many hours each day, that it can paradoxically cause a greater attachment to your W and the idea that you have to make your M work? A part of healthy detachment comes not only from the GAL, but from taking your mind off of your M and allowing the complete distraction away from it. Just a thought I had.

I agree with the others that I have seen you try and take responsibility for some of her actions and choices. And while that speaks to your strong character -- that you are willing to be accountable and make corrections for your own mistakes -- it can also lead to a false sense of control over your situation. You know as well as anyone that even if you DB perfectly, you can never control what she does or the outcome. DBing is really to increase the odds that they will want to remain married, but equally it is to prepare ourselves for it not working. It is always easier to see that in other people's sitches than our own.

When I read your writings I get the sense you might feel defensive and you are persuasive in your argument that things are not as bad as last time and that you are handling things better. I don't doubt that at all! My bigger concern is that her behavior and need for attention from other men is becoming a pattern over time. Addiction or not, that makes me think she has never recovered from it. The best predicament of future behavior is from past. Her consistent need to flirt and get validation from men is not going to go away, even if you DB perfectly, set boundaries and follow them, go to MC, etc. She has to want to believe herself that her R with you is enough, and it doesn't seem to be. She needs these OM and has said it whether you allow it or not. I am sorry to say that.

You mention that by not fulfilling her LL for 2 decades that you are partly responsible, and I don't agree. All Ms and relationships run into trouble at times and most of us here can see how we were not good partners. None of that has to do with her "need" for attention from other men. I think she is lacking a sense of self worth and self fulfillment in her own day to day life so she turns to the quick fix -- gaming, messages, flirting, attention, etc. I don't know if this is as directly related to her satisfaction in her M with you as you want to believe that it is. And understandably you want to believe that because that is something you CAN control. You can DB better and work on being AMOAFWL, right? ... but you DID do that, and she is still being a WW in her actions and her explicit stated desires ...

Maybe a better question to ask yourself is if you want to be married to a partner you have to treat like a teenager? Someone you have to monitor and control or worry about their screen time. That doesn't sound fulfilling to me. Even if your pursuing her and making her feel wanted -- as R2C suggests you should do -- works temporarily, do you want to be in a long term M with someone you have to try so hard to stop them from keeping away from OMs attention? That sounds exhausting to me. I would lose attraction for my partner if I had to force his attention away form OWs and if I knew thats what he desired.

So from my perspective, the answer lies in something you cannot control or even influence no matter how hard you try. She on her own needs to create a genuine and fulfilling life for herself -- and one that she doesn't require shallow quick fix it's (like a hit of a drug) from strangers -- and hopefully a life that includes you in it. I am not sure you can do any of that for her and I doubt all the praying and counseling will change anything. She has to want things to change and then take actions to change her own life first. ... And maybe she needs to really lose you before realizing what she has in front of her. I am not saying you should leave your M, that is not my place, but these are my thoughts for now.

Best,
Blu

Blu, thank you. Absolutely amazing post, and I think you are right on with all of it. I think subconsciously I've become a DB mighty man in an effort the control my MR. But I do think the side effect of that is that I am ready and willing to leave that MR if I need to. As I said before, I think that would be premature and this moment, but it may come to that.

But you are dead on with her having to want to change in order to change. Prior to this latest transgression I could point to my behavior and say without a doubt that was a major cause of that. But we went 6 years of marriage before the first instance. After that she went 12 years. And I did trust but verify in those years so I'm quite sure there were no instances of it during that time. So how much of this time can be attributed to my previous poor behavior? Only God knows that. But you're right, I can't fix it. Only she can. But it do believe in prayer.... And I think IC can help.

[SteveLW]

Blu is spot on. IMO.
As I read through your last month's worth of post I see a man that is trying to sell his Ws last week's worth of actions to a group that has seen too much. We get it that you are in a better place this time. You seemed to be in a good state the last go-round. Blaming addiction or a troubled youth are not helpful. The fault is on your W. Best you can do is to create an atmosphere where she has the best chance of seeing this. It's always hard to see this in our own sitches.

I see indications that you are considering Persute acceptable. Wrong

Pull back. DB but let your intentions be ambiguous. IMO she hasn't felt enough pain. Yes I said that. Reread what Sandi has said about real reconciliation. Simply going to IC is not enough. I agree she needs to go but like everything, there are no guarantees, no quick fixes. She has to want it more than her EA quick-fixes of late.
Right now she is behaving out of shock. So are you. This will change. Ws get good are throwing us off their trail. I have lived this for over a year now. Just as we can reduce pressure, there are things that they will do to reduce the pressure both on us and inturn on them. Don't fall for it.

Trust is going to be very difficult. What it will take, stands to be seen. Once again you are a long way from crossing that bridge.

Now you have 2 homes and a WW. Good behavior or not you are in a pile of poo. Make her pursue you. I know you can.

Well stated. Only complaint I have is that I'm not pursuing and not planning on it anytime soon. And she on trust, actually full trust may be impossible....... For a longgggggggggggggg time. I'm saying like 20 years.

I'm optimistically pessimistic, if that makes sense. I know she can fix it, but I don't know that she will.

Thanks again brother, appreciate the support, wisdom, and prayers.

[RR17]

Meeting her to spread mulch is pursuit. Inviting her to karaoke is pursuit. Just keeping it real.

[SteveLW]

Meeting her to spread mulch is pursuit. Inviting her to karaoke is pursuit. Just keeping it real.

I'll disagree on the mulch. The karoeke was not my idea and I said I would wait on that.

[RR17]

Not trying to bust your chops, buddy.

No one knows better than you what the contextual dynamic is in any interaction. Lord knows I have felt misunderstood on this forum.

But I do know this. There were times when I felt empathy for my W. Where I chose to see her in the best possible light because I was so tired and broadsided by the weight of it all. I guess I just got tired of being mad at all that I had discovered and the trust that had been destroyed. That I wanted to make sense out of it all and that I wanted to take the spotlight off of me as some kind of victim. It all sounds altruistic and I can't imagine that I am the only one that has gone through that.
I can also say that it was during this time that I may have said and done or allowed to happen things that didn't necessarily progress my objective.

Just think about it.

[SteveLW]

Thanks RR. I know that we've both been through the trenches on this, maybe more and varied than anyone else on the forum! I agree, I know I made a lot of mistakes in Jan 2018 and almost pushed her right out the door. Sometimes our fear causes us to bring about the very thing we fear!

But I really see this as a relapse. Maybe a necessary one. Because now there are things that will be put into place to help her over this. Where before, obviously, she was a ticking timebomb.

Excellent perspective.

[SteveLW]

One last thing. I've realized that one of the things that is so different this time is that I really am not afraid of D. She made it clear after I confronted she wanted to remain together. I was ready for her to drop the D bomb again. I was going to say that it was fine. In some ways I was almost excited by the prospect.

Stay together and make the MR great or go out separate ways and start new lives separately, either way I knew I would be AOK.

No fear this time. And I ain't just saying that!

[BluWave]

Yes, Steve, no matter the outcome, you will be more than just okay. You will be great.

Do you see her behavior (enjoying attention from OM) as a "relapse" in that it disappeared and then resurfaced? Or is it possible that it has been there and you didn't know? Or more so, even if she was not engaging in it, could it be that it is something she continued to want? I guess I find it telling that she said outright that she enjoys it and thinks you should accept it. That is bold, but also honest.

That idea alone would really bother me if it were my H. So even if I asked him to stop, and he did stop, it would bother me to know that he still craved the attention of OW. That is why I am asking.

I gave Neffer a hard time because he talked about overcoming the desire for OW and how it can take a long time. I know on a cerebral level that it makes sense, but I also know myself, and I just couldn't feel attraction to my H if I believed he craved attention/desire for any OW. I feel like after all the cr-p we have been through over the years, if he is here and with me, he better be sure it is what he wants. And he knows me well enough to know I am not interested in sharing -- that is not my jam.

Blu

[sandi2]

In this post below, everything she said sounded so............. protocol.

She claims she doesn't know what happened. That they played the game. He was flirty. That he had a similar sense of humor to hers. At some point she told him she didn't even know what he looked like. His profile had no picture. He asked her to give him her email address. She said no, I am not giving you my email address. The next time they played after chatting back and forth, she gave it him. This was about 3 weeks ago (according to her). She says that she doesn't know why, that she had several guys over the last year and a half as her for contact info and told them no. She would tell them all she was married, many said "so am I".

I'm sorry, but the first sentence where she claims she doesn't know what happened..........is not true. She has been down this road in the past, so she knows exactly how the game is played, and I'm not talking about the cyber game. All of this is so familiar, it brought back memories of when I was involved in the same activity.

It starts with saying humorous things while playing the game, then it turns into what some might refer to as "innocent or harmless flirting". They start asking questions, as a way to get to know who they are playing with, and the first couple of questions are, "Do you live in the US", and then, "Are you married". Then they gradually give a short description of their situation, and this guy's story is pretty much the run of the mill. They ask for the woman's email, so they can just talk.

So, she admitted she has continued playing this game for the past year and a half, although that was the source of the last EA? She actually plays dumb and says she doesn't know why b/c she's had several guys to ask for her contact information. I want you to notice something here, Steve, she wants you to know how she turned all these other guys down and told them she was married. She is selling something, and you are buying it. She is painting a picture of this innocent girl who just got swept up one time, and she doesn't know why she did, and she said "no" to all those other married guys who wanted her contact info, yada, yada, yada. It's a pitch! Some of what she says is true, but she's painting herself almost like a victim who was bewitched by this one guy.

She didn't know why this guy was different. That he came from a troubled youth (her youth was troubled too). That he is married to a woman with lots of health problems. That he was a sex-starved husband. She said she identified him with me, because she felt she was similar to his W, minus the health problems. I think some of this was rewriting of current history. Certainly 2 years ago we had a SSM, but our sex life has been pretty good, much more frequent, and the quality of each instance was way up. But this seemed to be a point she related with him on, even if it was more with his W than him. His W didn't like him playing the game, so he would wait until she went to bed.

See what I mean? She didn't know why this one guy was different from all those others who pursued her. She wants you to think she's not so bad, b/c after all, she turned down all those other men. Then she says something that kind of hits below the belt when she brings up how they have had a SSM, and it triggers you and reminds you that this is YOUR fault. If you had been a better H, then this would not have happened again. You know that hasn't been the case since you've excelled in DBing, but it's still enough that you can't put the responsibility where it belongs.

Many times they would just play the game. Sometimes they would message while playing. Sometimes it swerved into the flirty and inappropriate. It wasn't every night since some nights he couldn't get on. Obviously some of her answers are typical WAS stuff: she wasn't going anywhere, neither of them were interested in leaving their marriage, it wasn't as often as I think it was, most of the time it was joking and/or telling each other about their lives. She still played the game against strangers, and other friends. It hadn't consumed her life in anyway.

This entire paragraph is her pitch. She is selling you her story that it wasn't all that bad. Her answers are typical wayward W stuff.

I still am not sure why. I made it clear this one was on her. She claimed that her personality gets in the way and it takes over and she gets overly flirty and sometimes the other person reads too much into it. She usually shuts it down but not this time. For some reason. I tried to explain I doubt it was as innocent from his perspective. She tried to poo-poo that notion, but I think most of us men know how easy it is to get caught up by infatuation for an attractive woman. I know he lives in another country, but she admitted he has an up-to-date passport. I have no doubt that a "visit" was firmly in the back of his mind. Supposedly the passport discussion was "innocent" but this is where I remember to believe nothing she says.

You aren't sure why? What do you mean? You aren't sure why she would do this stuff again, after you have worked so hard to be AMOAFWL? That was your work, Steve. It wasn't her work. Look at what she's saying. She's still giving you her pitch. It's her personality that just takes over? Other people (men) read too much into it. Oh, but she has the ability to shut it down? That should be the ah-ha moment! She can turn it on, and she can shut it down. But you got focused on the man.

The conversation did turn to my "checking up on" her. She said that it upset her to know that I occasionally had done that, but she understood why. Still she said it upset her. She seems to insist no matter what I was doing or who I was doing it with, she would not snoop or spy on me. I FIRMLY do not believe this. I said "what if I was in an actual physical affair, you wouldn't want to get to the bottom of it?" She then backed down and said that a PA would be different. And while she is right, I think she deep down knows that EAs are no more justified than PAs. Though she denies that this incident and the one in Dec. 2017 were not EAs, but admits the one in 2005 was.

Of course it turned to you checking up on her! That's what WW's do when they are confronted. She tries to play the victim and make you out to be the bad guy.

I reiterated that checking up on her, and how I did it, simply doesn't matter, what matters was that there was something to find. She understood that and even agreed to it. She said the snooping upsets her but she knows it shouldn't.

A wife who is not guilty of inappropriate behavior/language should not feel upset that her H sees her messages. She should not be having secret messaging to a man.........period.

The conversation was very good. We even laughed and joked at a couple of points. Neither of us got upset.

Call me crazy, but I don't see that as a positive! I mean, I think it's good for you to remain calm, but she should have felt horrible. Laughing & joking after that type of conversation? Where is her remorse?

She insists that she wants to stay together, she is willing to do what it takes to do that, but understands if she lost that right.

Oh really? Then let's see how quick she gets into therapy. Let's see how long both of you stick to a transparency plan. You don't like it, b/c you are scared to death of what you will find. You want a wife you can trust and not have to check. Sorry, but you don't have one at the moment. She can become a wife you can trust, but she's got to do the hard work.

She has shared all of her passwords, she has disavowed all technology. She has put her tablet away, let the battery die. She only uses her phone text church friends, and family. Deleted all apps off of it. And she has moved to occupying her time with word searches and crossword puzzles on paper. I do not think this is sustainable long-term. We live in a digital world and I don't think she can completely unplug.

I think it's just a grand display. This is a woman who is bored out of her mind. She needs to find a job or volunteer at something. She can't sit and twiddle her thumbs all day and think she's not going to backslide.

So for now we have to try to rebuild trust. She still seems to be a little quieter than normal, but it is a little better than it was Wednesday. I think she saw what she stood to lose. I talked pretty firmly on Tuesday night. Made it clear I was uninterested in ever continuing to wonder what she was up to with who.

I think you are trying to see what you want to see. You don't want this to be as serious as it was the other times. Maybe it has not developed into an EA, IDK. The problem lies in her inappropriate behavior patterns. Can you forget about some OM being a threat, or not a threat b/c he lives on the other side of the world? It has nothing to do with him. At this point, it has nothing to do with you! It's her problem. You are so quick to say "we", but you try to carry the responsibility while she has zero consequences.

I think it was a mistake to tell her you were uninterested in wondering what she was up to and with whom. I know why you said it, but you should have left it out. How does that fit with a transparency plan? Like I said, you are the one who doesn't want to check her out.

So I am not going to give up on the idea of IC and eventually MC again. But I am done discussing anything about this, it is time to put it behind us.

I don't understand why she wasn't in therapy when you first reconciled. Why all this time, and no IC/MC? I think you took the blame and thought if you fixed yourself then everything else would fall into place. But what was her work, Steve? What did she do to repair the damage she caused?

You just want to put it all behind you. Well, that's exactly what a WW wants the H to do. They want to start from this day and act as if nothing ever happened. I'm not saying you have to hash it out with her again. I'm not saying to punish her. I'm saying there needs to be a plan of action ASAP. I would start with her agreeing to transparency (she is the offender, not you). Why won't you let her feel the consequences of her actions? I don't think you should have shared your passwords, etc. You certainly should have not told her your source of information.

[SteveLW]

Sandi, thanks. Good stuff. And I have lots to to think about. For the record, I didn't share my passwords. I think I'm an earlier post I mentioned that in 2005 I tried to lead by example and share my passwords. I haven't this time.

I also never told her the source of my info. She figured out that I saw the messages on her tablet, because it was orientated different than she leaves out after I snooped. However she thinks I saw them before she deleted them, therefore thinks I only saw his in her inbox. That's not how I saw them but I'm not disclosing the exact details.

I also want to let you know that I'm not buying what she's selling. I've taken everything with a grain of salt. I am not naive enough to believe that she's an innocent bystander, nor that she was never in full control and could have made different choices. You are dead on that if this was an isolated incident so be it, but as you point out it is a pattern here, and that's the concern.

She did share all of her passwords and has agreed to full transparency. I'm also not naive to know that while that's fine, if she really wants to she can get around that too.

So while I'm saying I'm putting this behind me, I mean I'm done discussing this incident. That doesn't mean that we continue forward business as usual.

I also didn't say I wasn't interested in what she was doing with whom. What I said was I wasn't interested in being married to someone where I had to be. Subtle difference, but wanted to make sure you understood that.

I caught the cashier on the store last night, an attractive woman probably in her mid 40s checking me out last night. When she was ringing me up she was a tad flirty. I know the world is my oyster if I were to move on from this MR. So please do not think I'm hanging on to this for dear life.

Thanks again for all of your wisdom and insight!