The major difficulty in this whole process is my W playing the victim role. She talks a lot about being scared and frightened of me. She gets upset if I stand up for myself calmly. I have worries about how D will go, as I assume we are heading down that path at this point.
It's almost as if she assumes I am high-conflict by nature, so she is on guard and protective and feels like she has the right to do whatever she wants. My opinion is that she is high-conflict by nature, so I am on guard by making sure I don't poke the sleeping bear. What has happened is I have given way and tried to minimize the conflict. The fact is, I have to face the conflict, but given my W's intense fears and insecurities I want to be careful about it. She has thrown around words like "abuse" and "PTSD" often in MC, and frankly I worry she will do the same thing in a divorce proceeding. I am not worried about defending myself, as I believe I have nothing to worry about, but I am not looking forward to the process.
As a simple example, a few weeks ago she asked for an extra weekend night for the kids because her friend was visiting. This was one of my weekends. I gave it to her. Then she asked to do something to extend her extra day until the evening. I said "no"... that's it. Calmly. She got angry and emotional about it, and even brought it up in MC as feeling like I am not being amicable.
The whole thing is disappointing. Because of her intensity, we have minimized conversations and, as a result, we are not even co-parenting effectively (in my mind). It would be nice to talk every 2-3 days just to make sure we know what's going on with the kids, for instance.
The only thing that is working for me right now is having space and time to work on myself. Everything else about this separation is not working particularly well - the kid timeshare, the finances, the threatening overtones when my W talks about her fear, the inability for my W to understand I am trying to work together on fair compromises with her - it's really getting me down.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but maybe you need to err on the side of being firm but really softening the message. Your W may be completely wrong about you and vilifying you, but as they say, her perception is her reality. I know that I get triggered when I get a plain “no” response. Would it work it cushion it a bit so that there is no way any sane person could say you were being anything but amicable? For example “Sorry, no that won’t work for me.” ?
To be clear, I mean this for your sake, your sanity in communicating with her/co-parenting and your protection in the event of D proceedings.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but maybe you need to err on the side of being firm but really softening the message. Your W may be completely wrong about you and vilifying you, but as they say, her perception is her reality. I know that I get triggered when I get a plain “no” response. Would it work it cushion it a bit so that there is no way any sane person could say you were being anything but amicable? For example “Sorry, no that won’t work for me.” ?
To be clear, I mean this for your sake, your sanity in communicating with her/co-parenting and your protection in the event of D proceedings.
Thank you for the feedback, I think it makes sense.
For the example I mentioned, I did say more than No. I think I said something to the effect of, "No that doesn't work for me, I already gave you one of my nights to you and I would like time with the kids." When pressed she will put me on the defensive.
Your point about softening my messaging is well-taken, though. I will explore ways to do this.
One thing I have tried is the positive lead-in, or pos-neg-pos sandwich. For instance, I may text her:
"Hope you are having a good time with the kids. I wanted to remind you we need to discuss XYZ so we can firm up our schedule."
The little positivity seems to help. It goes against strict DB advice, but I consider it acceptable because I am not looking for a reconciliatory reaction out of her.
The major difficulty in this whole process is my W playing the victim role. She talks a lot about being scared and frightened of me. She gets upset if I stand up for myself calmly. I have worries about how D will go, as I assume we are heading down that path at this point.
Ok mate, I fully get your drift. My XW is like that too, but hasnt said she is scared or frightened of me thankfully. Was this her attitude too when you were married, or is it new since separation?
This is tricky to handle. You'll need to make the call if this is just bravado on her part in wanting to control the situation. For me, when my XW and I discussed finance split and exchanged offers, I stood firm on what money I wanted (it was a fantastic deal for her anyway), and simply told her "I'm firm on my position". She ranted, raved and told me she hated me, then a few days later accepted I was immoveable.
I'd try the minimalist approach to responding (without things like 'hope you're having a good time...") and see how she reacts, let it wash over you like waves smashing a granite shoreline, then wait a day or so to see if she changes.
If she says she's 'scared' of you, ask her to tell you what about you scares her so you can understand where she's coming from. Then stand back, gesture for her to talk, and adopt a neutral, contemplative stance.
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
This might be an unpopular opinion, but maybe you need to err on the side of being firm but really softening the message. Your W may be completely wrong about you and vilifying you, but as they say, her perception is her reality. I know that I get triggered when I get a plain “no” response. Would it work it cushion it a bit so that there is no way any sane person could say you were being anything but amicable? For example “Sorry, no that won’t work for me.” ?
To be clear, I mean this for your sake, your sanity in communicating with her/co-parenting and your protection in the event of D proceedings.
Thank you for the feedback, I think it makes sense.
For the example I mentioned, I did say more than No. I think I said something to the effect of, "No that doesn't work for me, I already gave you one of my nights to you and I would like time with the kids." When pressed she will put me on the defensive.
Your point about softening my messaging is well-taken, though. I will explore ways to do this.
One thing I have tried is the positive lead-in, or pos-neg-pos sandwich. For instance, I may text her:
"Hope you are having a good time with the kids. I wanted to remind you we need to discuss XYZ so we can firm up our schedule."
The little positivity seems to help. It goes against strict DB advice, but I consider it acceptable because I am not looking for a reconciliatory reaction out of her.
I've had these types of exchanges, and for the both of us it could come across as willful and defensive on both parties digging in their heels. I've learned when something doesn't work for me or vice versa that usually stating a "no" in the form of a question helps. Tone delivery plays a big role in it too... “Sorry, no that won’t work for me.” ? Sounds defensive, pre meditated and willful. I try... Keyword.. Try...to deliver those responses like "I'm sorry that isn't going to work for me because of XY and Z...Is there a more comparable solution we can come up with and agree upon?"
I used to get and give the "No that doesn't work for me." Response all the time in the beginning of my sich. Its irritating and again willful.
I get these from my STBXW all the time: "Hope you are having a good time with the kids. I wanted to remind you we need to discuss XYZ so we can firm up our schedule."
Still irritating to me because it is W's way if constantly trying to remind me if stuff, I've already given thought on, planned on, and already have a handle on. I typically don't respond to these responses until hours later, when I have the clear ability not to react to it. I try to look at it from a different perspective that they're making a request in a polite and amicable fashion rather than trying to be your coordinator.
The major difficulty in this whole process is my W playing the victim role. She talks a lot about being scared and frightened of me. She gets upset if I stand up for myself calmly. I have worries about how D will go, as I assume we are heading down that path at this point.
Ok mate, I fully get your drift. My XW is like that too, but hasnt said she is scared or frightened of me thankfully. Was this her attitude too when you were married, or is it new since separation?
This is tricky to handle. You'll need to make the call if this is just bravado on her part in wanting to control the situation. For me, when my XW and I discussed finance split and exchanged offers, I stood firm on what money I wanted (it was a fantastic deal for her anyway), and simply told her "I'm firm on my position". She ranted, raved and told me she hated me, then a few days later accepted I was immoveable.
I'd try the minimalist approach to responding (without things like 'hope you're having a good time...") and see how she reacts, let it wash over you like waves smashing a granite shoreline, then wait a day or so to see if she changes.
If she says she's 'scared' of you, ask her to tell you what about you scares her so you can understand where she's coming from. Then stand back, gesture for her to talk, and adopt a neutral, contemplative stance.
Yeah my STBXW is scared of me too and has given specific reasons because of my former reactivity to irritating situations, so now I choose not to discuss things in person unless absolutely necessary. All by email. This way emotions aren't high, and there is a record of what was said this way there are no memory issues on both our parts.
I think these former high emotional and willful reactions are based in individual perceptions as skewed as they may be. I think it is a mix of protecting yourself and being bravado when someone is scared or hurt.
The major difficulty in this whole process is my W playing the victim role.
This is a common thing in many sitches. You can only control what you can do and not what they feel.
It is not surprising that she thinks that you are being difficult when you don't agree with her or give her what you want. WW/WAS often tend to be selfish and feel a sense of entitlement.
What I found is that you need to look out for yourself. You cannot try to nice them or be afraid to say what is right because you are afraid of their reaction. Not saying you need to pick fights, but you cannot shy away from doing or saying the right things because of fear of a confrontation.
You saw what happened when you spoke up and insisted on changing the schedule with the kids. You had many reasons to be afraid your wife would say no and would get confrontational, but speaking up and being firm was the right thing to do. I hope you can learn a lesson from this experience.
If I can offer you one advice based on what I have seen for the past several weeks in your sitch, it would be this: You cannot allow W to set the rules and then complain that the rules are unfair. Stop complaining privately, speak to her and work with her (or the MC) to set rules that are fair for both of you.
The major difficulty in this whole process is my W playing the victim role. She talks a lot about being scared and frightened of me. She gets upset if I stand up for myself calmly. I have worries about how D will go, as I assume we are heading down that path at this point.
Ok mate, I fully get your drift. My XW is like that too, but hasnt said she is scared or frightened of me thankfully. Was this her attitude too when you were married, or is it new since separation?
This is tricky to handle. You'll need to make the call if this is just bravado on her part in wanting to control the situation. For me, when my XW and I discussed finance split and exchanged offers, I stood firm on what money I wanted (it was a fantastic deal for her anyway), and simply told her "I'm firm on my position". She ranted, raved and told me she hated me, then a few days later accepted I was immoveable.
I'd try the minimalist approach to responding (without things like 'hope you're having a good time...") and see how she reacts, let it wash over you like waves smashing a granite shoreline, then wait a day or so to see if she changes.
If she says she's 'scared' of you, ask her to tell you what about you scares her so you can understand where she's coming from. Then stand back, gesture for her to talk, and adopt a neutral, contemplative stance.
Yeah my STBXW is scared of me too and has given specific reasons because of my former reactivity to irritating situations, so now I choose not to discuss things in person unless absolutely necessary. All by email. This way emotions aren't high, and there is a record of what was said this way there are no memory issues on both our parts.
I think these former high emotional and willful reactions are based in individual perceptions as skewed as they may be. I think it is a mix of protecting yourself and being bravado when someone is scared or hurt.
I don't know at what point my W was scared. There is a chicken-and-egg nature to how our situation evolved. When we moved 2 years ago, it was very disruptive. My W became withdrawn and depressed and distant, and our relationship suffered. I felt like I tried to meet her needs, but I also started to try to express my needs. Our intimacy fell off a cliff, which was a problem for me, and I tried to initiate conversations about it, but just in raising the issue my W felt blamed and shamed. I felt like she didn't care about my feelings, and instead she started to complain about almost everything - housework, kids, her career. I made changes to try to help her, but it felt like the more I tried, the more she pointed out problems. I had some resentment as I felt she was making no effort on her side to listen to what I had to say. I started to question whether she loved me, and on one occasion got fairly histrionic about it as I was looking for reassurance and she had none to give. I regret how I handled myself, and can see how she would experience it as me being wildly unpredictable. I was never verbally or physically abusive, but I did cry. By the time I pulled over the car in March to try to have a conversation with her (a terrible decision on my part), I was sure that she was thinking about leaving the marriage.
I don't minimize my role in what happened. I do think that we triggered each other. My W's extreme distance and unwillingness to have an open conversation, combined with my fear of abandonment and NGS issues, created this toxic stew. She experiences it as me being unpredictably emotional at times. This has scared her. She feels abused. I experience her as a controlling, cold, domineering person. I've come around on my issues quite a bit, but I don't feel she has.
I would have loved to talk about the episodes that have fed her fear in MC. She has not been willing to discuss so far. I wish we could have a mature adult conversation about it, where I could take my responsibility for what happened, rather than have my W letting her mind race and go to dark places. I have noticed when she does mention things, certain details have changed to the point they are untruthful, and it alarms me.
Here's an example: Back in May, pre-BD but while I was DB'ing, one of my GAL activities was to play guitar at night in our guest area. As this area is soundproof, it didn't wake up the kids, and sometimes I would sing. My W took this as me losing my marbles.
This is a big rambling mess of a post. I don't think she is using fear/abuse as a strategy to control the situation intentionally, but it certainly does feel very controlling on my side.
The major difficulty in this whole process is my W playing the victim role.
This is a common thing in many sitches. You can only control what you can do and not what they feel.
It is not surprising that she thinks that you are being difficult when you don't agree with her or give her what you want. WW/WAS often tend to be selfish and feel a sense of entitlement.
What I found is that you need to look out for yourself. You cannot try to nice them or be afraid to say what is right because you are afraid of their reaction. Not saying you need to pick fights, but you cannot shy away from doing or saying the right things because of fear of a confrontation.
You saw what happened when you spoke up and insisted on changing the schedule with the kids. You had many reasons to be afraid your wife would say no and would get confrontational, but speaking up and being firm was the right thing to do. I hope you can learn a lesson from this experience.
If I can offer you one advice based on what I have seen for the past several weeks in your sitch, it would be this: You cannot allow W to set the rules and then complain that the rules are unfair. Stop complaining privately, speak to her and work with her (or the MC) to set rules that are fair for both of you.
MLC,
Your posts are really helping me sort things out, thank you.
I am not trying to nice my W back. I am trying to nice my W so she does not steer things towards a contentious and litigious D. I need to stop the "nice" strategy and be firm and calm and cordial and fair, as you are advising.
MC is a mess and I think I know why. We are mixing "marriage counseling" with "separation/co-parenting coaching." My W's fears become leverage for negotiating all of our terms for the separation (whether or not she is doing this intentionally doesn't matter). I have played into the fears, and like you keep advising me it's time to stand up for myself. I'm working on it. The counselor himself played into the fears for the first month or two, and he has stopped doing this.
The concept of "fairness" is hugely problematic for us. As I see it, fair would be something like:
- Work towards 50/50 custody in a couple years - Financial separation where I help my W get on her feet so she can be self-supporting.
My W would see the above as me being controlling and abusive and cold. As she sees it, ANY agreement that does not involve me continuing to support her lifestyle is an example of me being abusive and controlling. Frankly I think she could continue in separation indefinitely -- any move towards D is going to make her life worse. On the other hand, I feel like I am giving and giving and giving, and not seeing much reason to stay invested at this point.
All the above being said, I really appreciate you pointing out that I don't need to take the nuclear option to deal with this. I can continue to make small stands for myself.
Your posts are really helping me sort things out, thank you.
You're welcome, U. I know how difficult it is getting through this and I am happy to help.
Originally Posted by unchien
I am not trying to nice my W back. I am trying to nice my W so she does not steer things towards a contentious and litigious D. I need to stop the "nice" strategy and be firm and calm and cordial and fair, as you are advising.
Yes, as you said you need to stop the "nice" strategy since it does not matter why you are trying to "nice" her. Stay cordial and be reasonable at the same time. There is a middle ground between trying to "nice" her Vs being contentious
Originally Posted by unchien
MC is a mess and I think I know why. We are mixing "marriage counseling" with "separation/co-parenting coaching."
Are you surprised by this? When you first talked about going to MC many months ago, your main goal was to get the BD instead of being in limbo. After that your justification for continuing MC was 'co-parenting' coaching even though many pointed out that you were in "marriage counseling" but your W has no intention of working on the MR. You probably need to take another look at setting clear goals with the MC and avoid confusion on mixing goals.
Originally Posted by unchien
The concept of "fairness" is hugely problematic for us. /quote]
You won't like this, but I feel that what 'you' think is fair does not count for much. IMHO, approach the negotiations as if you were pursuing a D and look at what would be considered fair by a court of law. If you eventually file for D, that is what the guideline would be anyways. If you happen to R, then the terms of separation won't matter at that time anyways.
[quote=unchien]
All the above being said, I really appreciate you pointing out that I don't need to take the nuclear option to deal with this. I can continue to make small stands for myself.
Yes, it is easy to think of extremes but there is always a middle ground. Even if you file for D, you will need to find middle ground in lot of things such as mediation. You still need to maintain some sort of relationship with your W since you have kids together, so going nuclear is never helpful.
