Last resort technique?

[DBX80]

Hi Dbx80, she's in a hotel room even though she doesn't mind seeing you nearly everyday, she says it's okay for you to date (which implies the same for her), and 1000 miles is only a weekend flight away. You know your wife, but to an outsider, your situation sounds perilously close to a PA.

I hope it doesn't come to that, of course. She did say dating's okay "as long as it's not physical", which implies she realizes getting physical crosses a significant line in the sand.

Hi CWarrior. Yes, she did specify that physical or sexual activities with others would be out of the question during our "break". So that does make me think that she's not really *that* close to turning her EA into a PA. But who knows. She may be saying that to just prevent me from moving on while she does whatever she wants. I don't believe that's the case, but I suppose that's a possibility.

Also, in yesterday's couple's counseling session, the counselor asked her if she was still texting the OM. She responded saying, "A little." The counselor asked if she had any plans to meet up with the OM. She said, "No, nothing like that." Then she said something like, "I know I would have to end the relationship with the OM entirely in order to give our marriage another try. However, I also don't want to feel *forced* to give up my relationship with the OM. I want to be able to reach that conclusion on my own. That's why I'm asking for space and time--so I can think about my life and what I want to do."

I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of it.

Oh, and after our session, when we were in the elevator alone, she reached into my button-down shirt in between two buttons and felt my bare chest, and then said, "You're not wearing an undershirt." I was very surprised, but I know it probably doesn't mean much.

[SoTorn]

She wants to cake eat. It doesnt mean anything other than she wants you as a solid plan B. Don't be plan B. Its you are nothing. You deserve someone fully committed to you. Know your value. Show your WW that you know your value.

[ovrrnbw]

Thanks everyone for your responses.

I do wonder though: everyone on here seems so sure of themselves about what I should be doing. How many of you have actually reconciled with your spouses, and are now happily married?

We don't have any clear data, there is literally no clear data out there.

Is your pursuit plan working? Do you want to hear the experience of everyone here? Can you listen to advice and apply it to your situation? Are you reading other situations?

These situations have played out millions of times with predictable thoughts, feelings, and actions on both sides. You can absorb that information or not.

I’m not inviting her over for dinner. She just shows up to eat dinner whenever she pleases. It’s her house too, although right now she’s living in a hotel. So I cannot really just lock her out of the house. She has her own key. And yes, she also comes by the house to do laundry and to play with the dogs. And I promise I won’t hide from her! wink

Look up legal separation in your state. You possibly can legally keep her out of the house. Have you consulted an attorney yet?

This whole quote is troubling. You're just minimizing all her crap and while putting out the batsignal that you want her back. Why does she get access to the parts of the marriage she wants when she is having an affair and moved out? You promising not to hide from her just solidifies in my mind how you are going to try to be there to see her instead of going your own way.

This OM could have flown in already and you wouldn't be any wiser to it. My buddy takes flights to stay with hookups and hang out - it happens.

the counselor asked her if she was still texting the OM. She responded saying, "A little." The counselor asked if she had any plans to meet up with the OM. She said, "No, nothing like that."

Riiiigggghhhhhttttt. You should totally believe her....

What is the point of MC when she wants two men in her life? You are showing her that you are OK with her having two men in her life.

My head is about to explode. Man I have been where you are, and you are losing respect by the minute. You will regret that forever!

[sandi2]

How many other forums/boards are you reading?

I’m not inviting her over for dinner. She just shows up to eat dinner whenever she pleases. It’s her house too, although right now she’s living in a hotel. So I cannot really just lock her out of the house. She has her own key.

Okay, so who buys the groceries, laundry detergent, etc.?

Do you cook the meal or buy carry-out?

Does she help clean up the kitchen?

I’m assuming she was saying that I was too controlling and selfish in our relationship. I have copped to it though, and I can see how she would think I was selfish and controlling. So that is certainly I’m working on, and I believe this was a “wake up” call for me in that respect.

In what ways were you controlling and selfish? How do you plan to work on it?

I think most LBH's see the bomb drop as if it is a wake up to go into action and fix things. He's ready to jump into working on the MR with his W. The problem lies with her. She is not trying to wake him up to fix the problems. She's announcing that she's done with him & the MR. Like most, she feels she has to give some type of an excuse or find justification for ending the M. So, she falls back on old complaints or makes up new ones. Now a lot of LBH's want to put on the Super Husband cape and show his W all the 180's he's made, but she doesn't care. She's fired him from his position as husband, so it's too little and too late.

Some LBH's believe after the bomb drop is the time to prove just how much he loves her. In the past, she would have welcomed his efforts, but after she drops the bomb, she will not receive it anywhere close to the spirit in which it was given. His efforts tell her that he is so attached to her that she has to do a couple of things: 1) treat him much worse, so he will finally accept the M is over, or 2) throw him a few crumbs and keep him on the back burner (Plan B) just in case OM (Plan A) doesn't work out like she'd hoped. She does this by keeping the H confused......like telling him how she wants them to always be each other's best friend, yada, yada, yada.

Here's the plain harsh truth when the W has opened the M to a third party. The LBH cannot "nice" her back. He cannot "talk" her back. So where does that leave you if you can't nice her or talk her back? I suggest that the LBH attracts her. Before he can start showing her what a great H he could be....given another chance......he needs to put his focus on himself and how to become an attractive male. And, these first few posts from the community have tried to gently turn you in that direction.

You and your W are not running on the same track, and if your focus is entirely on her, you will derail. Instead of pursuing her, it's time to take care of yourself. Here's the thing that you may not know. I seriously doubt that she has even imagined you moving forward and enjoying life.....without her. I bet she has never considered that she might be the one who got dumped, in the end. What about you? I hope you won't see yourself as powerless. Legally there may be things you can't do, but checking with a lawyer might put your mind to rest, just knowing where you stand. BTW, who is financing her hotel expenses?

There has been a lot of social talk about empowering women. Well, maybe I'm trying to empower LBH's.
The LBH has got to take back his inner power. During this time that his W wants her space......his job is to find male self. He needs to exercise his independent self. He doesn't have to answer to anybody, and he doesn't have to check with anyone to see "if it's okay" for him to do whatever he wants. Listen, this period may not last that long, so he needs to enjoy his own space while he can. He should work to improve, polish, or reinvent himself as a man. If he will work on becoming the man he needs to be, then he will have whipped a big part of being the right H. He should enjoy doing things he has not done in a long time.

I can't remember if you are going to a gym to work out, but these other guys will tell you it is very important in dealing with stress, plus it does wonders for the self esteem. So, work on your physical appearance. The outside is actually the easiest part. It's the hangups that snag us. If you are codependent or whatever your personal issues may be, work on those. Attending MC or couples classes is not going to help either of you while she's in an affair. I suggest you end the couple counseling and consider individual counseling for yourself. Your W can do whatever she wants about seeing a counselor. The point is that you are going to do whatever is necessary to help yourself come through this period in your life as more than just a survivor. You will come through it as a better man! You will be more physically fit, mentally/emotionally stronger, have a wider range of activities and interests, an increased number of friends, etc. If you will dig real deep, you will know where you are lacking. Your job is to work on you. Leave her to work on her. Don't try to fix her, b/c you can't. Don't try to fix the MR! You can't fix it until she ends the affair and is committed to doing whatever it takes to save the M. That's something she's got to work out.

BTW, don't tell your W how you are going to work on yourself. Tell her nothing. I get so frustrated at LBH's who think telling his W he's going to do work on himself will make a fig's difference to her. She doesn't care! If you really want to become more attractive, then tell her nothing about your personal life. When she fired you, she removed the right to know what you do on your personal time. Know what I mean?

While going through this separation, try to train yourself to interact with her the way you would interact with a cashier at the store. During the transaction, you smile, speak, maybe refer to the weather or something. If the cashier is talkative, you listen politely, maybe nod your head or laugh at something said. However, you don't ask the cashier personal questions. You don't poke around for deeper conversation, b/c you have things to do and places to go. You gracefully end the transaction and go on your way. This is an example of how to interact with your W. You don't have to give the silent treatment or the cold shoulder. You don't act as if you are mad. But neither should you engage in relationship discussions with her. If she talks about the sitch, your part is to listen. If you can validate her feelings, then do it. Otherwise, don't contribute your opinions. It's a hard job for some us!

Some people prefer the example of the neighbor. I usually call it the "nosy" neighbor, b/c once you start getting a life, your W is going to get extremely nosy. You don't share intimate details of your life. You mainly just listen to the neighbor talk. If you can validate a few times, that's great. But here's the thing with the nosy neighbor, you don't pull up a lawn chair and prepare to visit half the day. You want to be cordial, but you have things to do.......so you end the friendly chat and move on.

Same technique when she calls you on the phone. You always have things to do and places to go. You are an attractive guy who is being put out on the open market.........and who is not going to sit home and cry in his beer. The sooner you start seriously GAL, the sooner she's going to realize she's not the only one who will be set free if there is a divorce. Am I suggesting you start dating? No, but neither should you try to reassure her that she's the only woman for you, etc., etc. I'm telling you, when you pull away..........it's going to draw her in. It's like a couple's dance. When you step back, where does she go?

[Thornton]

This is pure gold, Sandi! Thank you!

[crdcheck]

Yes, great Sandi! Definitely have some things to try from this.

[curtis7]

Yes, she did specify that physical or sexual activities with others would be out of the question during our "break". So that does make me think that she's not really *that* close to turning her EA into a PA. But who knows. She may be saying that to just prevent me from moving on while she does whatever she wants. I don't believe that's the case, but I suppose that's a possibility.

Dbx, I wouldn’t trust her, mine said the same thing. Just before moving out my WW said that we should be free to date as long as it’s not taken too far (i.e. sleeping with others). What did she do? Moved out and went full blown GGW with multiple PAs.

Also, in yesterday's couple's counseling session, the counselor asked her if she was still texting the OM. She responded saying, "A little." The counselor asked if she had any plans to meet up with the OM. She said, "No, nothing like that." Then she said something like, "I know I would have to end the relationship with the OM entirely in order to give our marriage another try. However, I also don't want to feel *forced* to give up my relationship with the OM. I want to be able to reach that conclusion on my own. That's why I'm asking for space and time--so I can think about my life and what I want to do."

Around Valentine’s Day after I discovered that my WW had continued to meet her OM, I expressed to her how hurt I was and asked what she would want in a settlement. The next day she told me she deleted everything related to the OM from her phone and that it was over with him. Less than 3 weeks later it was back on. She said she resumed it out of principle. Any contact whatsoever with her OM or love interests resets the clock and she won’t be able to see you in a positive light, IMO.

I would just caution you to be highly skeptical of anything she says or does right now. They can launch very quickly into a world of darkness that you could never have imagined.

I know what it’s like to be Plan B (or more like C, D, or E for that matter). Don’t be like me. Listen to the vets here, they know what they’re talking about. I am a perfect example that nicing her back doesn’t work.

[DBX80]

Hi Sandi. Thanks again for your response. Here are my responses:

How many other forums/boards are you reading?

I'm just reading this forum.

Okay, so who buys the groceries, laundry detergent, etc.?

Do you cook the meal or buy carry-out?

Does she help clean up the kitchen?

I buy the groceries and the laundry detergent. She cooks when she's here, and I cook when she's not. And yes, she cleans up the kitchen when she's here.

In what ways were you controlling and selfish? How do you plan to work on it?

She claims that she was engaging in so much conflict-avoidance with me, that she wouldn't even want to state her opinion, or tell me what she wanted or needed, for fear of starting an argument or getting a snide remark from me. And I can see where she's coming from. I'm no stranger to conflict, and I can have a very aggressive, sarcastic, and perhaps judgmental personality. So now through individual counseling, I'm recognizing these behaviors in me so that I can stop them from becoming an issue for others (including my spouse). She claims that for most of the marriage, it was always about what I wanted and what I could tolerate, and it was never about what she wanted. Although it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that it was "always" like that, I can recognize that my behavior was an issue in the relationship.

I think most LBH's see the bomb drop as if it is a wake up to go into action and fix things. He's ready to jump into working on the MR with his W. The problem lies with her. She is not trying to wake him up to fix the problems. She's announcing that she's done with him & the MR. Like most, she feels she has to give some type of an excuse or find justification for ending the M. So, she falls back on old complaints or makes up new ones. Now a lot of LBH's want to put on the Super Husband cape and show his W all the 180's he's made, but she doesn't care. She's fired him from his position as husband, so it's too little and too late.

This kind of strikes me as a defeatist attitude. You're saying she's done with me, that she doesn't care about me, and that anything I do is "too little, too late." So should I just throw in the towel and file for divorce??

Also, her excuses and justifications actually ring true to me! So it's not like she's making it up. Perhaps she's exaggerating a little, but the gist of her complaints are generally valid in my eyes.

Some LBH's believe after the bomb drop is the time to prove just how much he loves her. In the past, she would have welcomed his efforts, but after she drops the bomb, she will not receive it anywhere close to the spirit in which it was given. His efforts tell her that he is so attached to her that she has to do a couple of things: 1) treat him much worse, so he will finally accept the M is over, or 2) throw him a few crumbs and keep him on the back burner (Plan B) just in case OM (Plan A) doesn't work out like she'd hoped. She does this by keeping the H confused......like telling him how she wants them to always be each other's best friend, yada, yada, yada.

Yes, she has mentioned that she would like to remain friends. Of course, that's an impossibility for me. I could not be her friend if she's committed to another man.

Here's the plain harsh truth when the W has opened the M to a third party. The LBH cannot "nice" her back. He cannot "talk" her back. So where does that leave you if you can't nice her or talk her back? I suggest that the LBH attracts her. Before he can start showing her what a great H he could be....given another chance......he needs to put his focus on himself and how to become an attractive male. And, these first few posts from the community have tried to gently turn you in that direction.

I understand what you're saying about not "nicing" her back. However, I would have thought that being nice would be my 180 (since I was such a controlling, selfish a-hole before)! Now do you see why I'm confused??

You and your W are not running on the same track, and if your focus is entirely on her, you will derail. Instead of pursuing her, it's time to take care of yourself. Here's the thing that you may not know. I seriously doubt that she has even imagined you moving forward and enjoying life.....without her. I bet she has never considered that she might be the one who got dumped, in the end. What about you? I hope you won't see yourself as powerless. Legally there may be things you can't do, but checking with a lawyer might put your mind to rest, just knowing where you stand. BTW, who is financing her hotel expenses?

She is paying for her own hotel expenses. We both have well-paying jobs, and fortunately expenses are not an issue in this situation.

There has been a lot of social talk about empowering women. Well, maybe I'm trying to empower LBH's.
The LBH has got to take back his inner power. During this time that his W wants her space......his job is to find male self. He needs to exercise his independent self. He doesn't have to answer to anybody, and he doesn't have to check with anyone to see "if it's okay" for him to do whatever he wants. Listen, this period may not last that long, so he needs to enjoy his own space while he can. He should work to improve, polish, or reinvent himself as a man. If he will work on becoming the man he needs to be, then he will have whipped a big part of being the right H. He should enjoy doing things he has not done in a long time.

Yes, I am starting to do a lot of things that I enjoy for myself and that I haven't done in a long time.

I can't remember if you are going to a gym to work out, but these other guys will tell you it is very important in dealing with stress, plus it does wonders for the self esteem. So, work on your physical appearance. The outside is actually the easiest part. It's the hangups that snag us. If you are codependent or whatever your personal issues may be, work on those. Attending MC or couples classes is not going to help either of you while she's in an affair. I suggest you end the couple counseling and consider individual counseling for yourself. Your W can do whatever she wants about seeing a counselor. The point is that you are going to do whatever is necessary to help yourself come through this period in your life as more than just a survivor. You will come through it as a better man! You will be more physically fit, mentally/emotionally stronger, have a wider range of activities and interests, an increased number of friends, etc. If you will dig real deep, you will know where you are lacking. Your job is to work on you. Leave her to work on her. Don't try to fix her, b/c you can't. Don't try to fix the MR! You can't fix it until she ends the affair and is committed to doing whatever it takes to save the M. That's something she's got to work out.

I am going to individual counseling, and we both go to couple's counseling together. You're saying we should stop going to couple's counseling, but I always liked going because she tends to open up and lets me know what she thinks our relationship needs in order to get back on track (for example, addressing the controlling and selfish behavior on my part). I understand that we cannot fix the marriage relationship until she ends the affair, but I thought it was still good to go to the couple's counseling if only to get her to share her thoughts and feelings about what went wrong and what can be improved.

BTW, don't tell your W how you are going to work on yourself. Tell her nothing. I get so frustrated at LBH's who think telling his W he's going to do work on himself will make a fig's difference to her. She doesn't care! If you really want to become more attractive, then tell her nothing about your personal life. When she fired you, she removed the right to know what you do on your personal time. Know what I mean?

So what do I say when she asks? For example, she may say "Where did you eat lunch today?" Would it not be appropriate to say "I went to the diner down the street"? Or what if she asks, "Who did you go with?" If I say, "A friend," she would just respond with, "Which friend?" I would feel awkward just ignoring her question or being coy about the answer.

While going through this separation, try to train yourself to interact with her the way you would interact with a cashier at the store. During the transaction, you smile, speak, maybe refer to the weather or something. If the cashier is talkative, you listen politely, maybe nod your head or laugh at something said. However, you don't ask the cashier personal questions. You don't poke around for deeper conversation, b/c you have things to do and places to go. You gracefully end the transaction and go on your way. This is an example of how to interact with your W. You don't have to give the silent treatment or the cold shoulder. You don't act as if you are mad. But neither should you engage in relationship discussions with her. If she talks about the sitch, your part is to listen. If you can validate her feelings, then do it. Otherwise, don't contribute your opinions. It's a hard job for some us!

I totally get what you're saying, but sometimes we're eating dinner together or in the same room, and I cannot just ignore her questions or just get up and leave every time she asks me something personal. That would be weird, I feel like.

Some people prefer the example of the neighbor. I usually call it the "nosy" neighbor, b/c once you start getting a life, your W is going to get extremely nosy. You don't share intimate details of your life. You mainly just listen to the neighbor talk. If you can validate a few times, that's great. But here's the thing with the nosy neighbor, you don't pull up a lawn chair and prepare to visit half the day. You want to be cordial, but you have things to do.......so you end the friendly chat and move on.

I guess I have a problem ending the chat and "moving on", because she's very nosy and won't let it go until I answer her questions. For example, a week or so ago, I tried to avoid sharing too much about what I did that day, and she was hounding me hours later about the same topic. So unless I share, she will just keep asking.

Same technique when she calls you on the phone. You always have things to do and places to go. You are an attractive guy who is being put out on the open market.........and who is not going to sit home and cry in his beer. The sooner you start seriously GAL, the sooner she's going to realize she's not the only one who will be set free if there is a divorce. Am I suggesting you start dating? No, but neither should you try to reassure her that she's the only woman for you, etc., etc. I'm telling you, when you pull away..........it's going to draw her in. It's like a couple's dance. When you step back, where does she go?

I guess my counterpoint is that by "pulling away" from her, it might just be "more of the same". Like I said above, my 180 was to be more considerate of her wants and needs, since I was such a controlling and selfish person during the relationship. I was not making her a priority during our marriage, and I feel that if I "pull away" as you suggest, that would just validate her stated reasons for leaving the marriage. Does that make sense?

[Jac12]

She'll look for reasons to justify leaving the marriage no matter what you do.

By mysterious. If she asks what you're doing say you're out with friends or grabbing a bite to eat. If she presses you can remind her that she fired you as a husband. You're busy and you can still be nice (as Sandi said regarding the cashier at the store).

Let her guess and wonder what you're up to.

Your'e not pulling away, you're getting a life and doing things you want to do.

[SoTorn]

You are not pulling away. You are showing yourself that you love, respect and value yourself. Which she will see. She already pulled away. There is nothing for you to pull away from. So focus on yourself. You will thank yourself for it later.