Last resort technique?

[DBX80]

Quick update:

Last night, she was here for dinner, and then started caressing my foot with her foot during the dinner. Thought it was strange, but just let it go. Later, she started basically groping me and then started kissing me. We then had sex (which she initiated). She did say “You know this doesn’t mean we’re back together. We’re just enjoying ourselves.”

Today, she was generally friendly and invited me to lunch tomorrow.

What does this all mean??

[sandi2]

Thanks, gentlemen, for your encouraging words.

I buy the groceries and the laundry detergent. She cooks when she's here, and I cook when she's not. And yes, she cleans up the kitchen when she's here.

So if she shows up, everyone goes into the "normal" zone? Except it's not normal. It's as if you're playing happy family...... on her terms, of course. If she didn't have dinner there, she would have to eat out or eat something in her hotel room, right?

Originally Posted by sandi2
In what ways were you controlling and selfish? How do you plan to work on it?

She claims that she was engaging in so much conflict-avoidance with me, that she wouldn't even want to state her opinion, or tell me what she wanted or needed, for fear of starting an argument or getting a snide remark from me. And I can see where she's coming from. I'm no stranger to conflict, and I can have a very aggressive, sarcastic, and perhaps judgmental personality. So now through individual counseling, I'm recognizing these behaviors in me so that I can stop them from becoming an issue for others (including my spouse). She claims that for most of the marriage, it was always about what I wanted and what I could tolerate, and it was never about what she wanted. Although it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that it was "always" like that, I can recognize that my behavior was an issue in the relationship.

I couldn't help but laugh a little bit when noticing how you started two sentences with, "She claims". I was surprised to see you so agreeable. Hopefully, your IC is giving you methods/techniques you can put into practice every day. You know, the people we are around during our childhood has a tremendous affect on our personalities and in how we interact with people. I've seen people who were very close to me, have similar traits you've described. My father was one, and I saw him overcome these negative patterns and grow into the most amazing man. I saw him as an amazing, b/c I knew what he was born into and some of what he had to overcome. I think it takes courage to make these changes, and a strong determination to learn and demonstrate better behavior.

Let me just caution you of something, as you grow through this experience (and I may have said this previously). LBH's struggle with staying balanced. They have a problem looking at what the W complained about and implementing new behavior. They go from one end of the spectrum to the polar end. So, don't get too frustrated if you feel you can't get anything right without someone on the board pointing it out. We'll be here trying to help you stay balanced.

Originally Posted by sandi2
Now a lot of LBH's want to put on the Super Husband cape and show his W all the 180's he's made, but she doesn't care. She's fired him from his position as husband, so it's too little and too late.

This kind of strikes me as a defeatist attitude. You're saying she's done with me, that she doesn't care about me, and that anything I do is "too little, too late." So should I just throw in the towel and file for divorce??

Throw in the towel? I wanted to show you how the bomb drop event is seen differently by the two spouses. She was making an announcement that the M is over, while he sees it as a wake up call. I'm trying to tell you just a little bit about her mindset, and warn you not to make the same mistakes others have made. I think Michele writes in her DR book how in most cases the W will try to tell her H she's not happy, but he doesn't hear her (partly b/c he doesn't recognize her language). However, when she drops the bomb, he is suddenly awake and ready to work. When he reads a book or gets advice on the forum, he can hardly wait to start all these 180's, correcting her complaints, etc. And like I said, the LBH has a tendency of overdoing or keeping things balanced in his head, and in his actions. Well, when he doesn't see his W respond quite like he thought she would, considering he is working his butt off to fix her complaints, his high hopes are deflated. That's b/c he doesn't quite understand the real problem, and he sure doesn't understand her. Why isn't she happy after he turns into a model of H perfection? That's why I'm here trying to tell the LBH that everything has changed at the point & time of the bomb drop. She'll likely drag up those old complaints for excuses to get a D (and some can be pretty flimsy). However, it's her mindset that is real problem.

By the time the LBH comes to the DB board, his W has lost respect, admiration, and loving feelings for him. Furthermore, she's probably rebelling against him and against their MR. She is not the same sweet girl he married. That doesn't mean the M can't be saved! I'm simply giving you a heads up about her. Most newcomer H's spend their time & energy trying to persuade the W to call off the D. The old persuasion talks no longer work, b/c she's no longer the same girl. She's not going to be rational or listen to logic, b/c she is making decisions based on her emotions. Everything revolves around her emotions. It's ironic that she blamed you of being selfish, b/c now you are going to see how everything has shifted and it's all about her. Everything I've said is true, but I'm not suggesting that you throw in the towel and file for D. I am suggesting that you take a different approach, than trying to persuade your W into staying......by talking about the MR.

Also, her excuses and justifications actually ring true to me! So it's not like she's making it up. Perhaps she's exaggerating a little, but the gist of her complaints are generally valid in my eyes.

Not all of them make up excuses and/or self justifications, but they can if they feel it's necessary in getting the D. If she would be justified in divorcing you, then just tell us. I'm not talking about some of the things she complained about ringing true.........I'm asking you if you abused your W (mentally, physically, emotionally). Have you betrayed & deceived her? You need to say if you have. If not, then we need to move along so that you can get pertinent information in how to turn things around and, hopefully, save your M.

Yes, she has mentioned that she would like to remain friends. Of course, that's an impossibility for me. I could not be her friend if she's committed to another man.

What about if she was in an affair with another man?

I understand what you're saying about not "nicing" her back. However, I would have thought that being nice would be my 180 (since I was such a controlling, selfish a-hole before)! Now do you see why I'm confused??

Yes, I see what you are saying, but are you familiar with NGS? (The term/title is a little misleading.) First, to answer your question, you don't 180 everything. We can return to this particular subject, once you answer my question about abuse. You certainly didn't use flattering words to described yourself. Anyway, you may see several references about Nice Guy Syndrome (NGS) across some threads. If you are not familiar with the term, google it or find the book. Whether you were the typical passive nice guy or if you were horrible in the MR, you still can't get her back by becoming Mr. Nice Guy. It just doesn't work. That doesn't mean you can't change bad behavior to good behavior.
It's not to say you can't behave like a decent human being, and even be polite. You can even be cordial, if you don't lose your head and overkill. Search youtube for nice guy syndrome, and I think you can get a pretty good idea what a nice guy means around here. Then we can return to the subject, if needed.

Originally Posted by sandi2
BTW, don't tell your W how you are going to work on yourself. Tell her nothing. I get so frustrated at LBH's who think telling his W he's going to do work on himself will make a fig's difference to her. She doesn't care! If you really want to become more attractive, then tell her nothing about your personal life. When she fired you, she removed the right to know what you do on your personal time. Know what I mean?

So what do I say when she asks? For example, she may say "Where did you eat lunch today?" Would it not be appropriate to say "I went to the diner down the street"? Or what if she asks, "Who did you go with?" If I say, "A friend," she would just respond with, "Which friend?" I would feel awkward just ignoring her question or being coy about the answer.

You completely missed my point. I was talking about how some LBH's think it will make a difference (in her feelings) if he would tell her that he is working on himself. I said don't tell her that you are working on yourself. I didn't say anything about all those other things. If she should come out and ask if you've been working out or going to the gym......then just simply say yes. Don't lie to her about anything.

I totally get what you're saying, but sometimes we're eating dinner together or in the same room, and I cannot just ignore her questions or just get up and leave every time she asks me something personal. That would be weird, I feel like.

Okay..........well, I'm going to end here and call it a night. Before I go, I want to suggest that you go back and read all the posts in this entire thread and notice how you respond by exaggerating or twisting what has been previously posted to you. Maybe you enjoy counterpointing a little too much?

[ovrrnbw]

Quick update:

Last night, she was here for dinner, and then started caressing my foot with her foot during the dinner. Thought it was strange, but just let it go. Later, she started basically groping me and then started kissing me. We then had sex (which she initiated). She did say “You know this doesn’t mean we’re back together. We’re just enjoying ourselves.”

Today, she was generally friendly and invited me to lunch tomorrow.

What does this all mean??

It means she needs to make sure you still want her, and she wants to see if she still has power over you.

Decline lunch and organize your sock drawer instead.

[LH19]

D,

Enjoy the moment for what it was and be sure not to turn into Mr. Melty.

Thanks for the invite but I’ve got plans.

[DBX80]

So I think she likes to have dinner with me, and it’s one of her “cake-eating” habits. What if I were to tell her that as a new rule during our “break”, we cannot have dinner together unless she has stopped communicating with the OM for X number of days (let’s just say, 3 days). Do you think this “boundary” would be beneficial or advisable? That way, the onus is on her to modify her behavior instead of on me (because it’s been very hard for me to deny her).

And if she were to agree to it, I think she would be honest in enforcing it. I think the guilt would eat her up otherwise.

[LH19]

D,

What are the consequences if you set the boundary and she breaks it?

Why is it hard for you to deny a woman that is seeking out intimacy with another man?

[DBX80]

Hi Sandi. To answer your questions:

1. Yes, if she didn’t have dinner here, she would have to eat out or eat at her hotel.

2. I have not abused my wife. However, you should know that back when we were first dating 14 years ago, I did cheat on her once with an ex. I thought she was over it, but she has recently reference this in our talks. However, since we’ve been living together for 13 years now, I have never cheated on her or abused her.

3. I would not be able to remain friends with her if she were in a PA with the OM. Right now, it’s just an EA, which I’ve decided is something I could get over if she were to come back.

4. Yes, I’m familiar with NGS. I see some of myself in that (i.e., covert contracts). It’s something I’m working on as well.

5. And yes, sorry for counterpointing so much. It’s part of my line of work, and so it’s hard to stop when I’m not at work.

[DBX80]

D,

What are the consequences if you set the boundary and she breaks it?

Why is it hard for you to deny a woman that is seeking out intimacy with another man?

I supposed if she breaks the boundary, I would tell her no more dinners together until she completely stops all communication with the OM.

And it’s hard to deny her because she’s the love of my life. What can I say?

Also, sometimes I feel like instead of “cake-eating”, she may be genuinely trying to test the waters with me to see if our relationship is worth another shot. I know you say it’s “cake-eating”, but sometimes I’m not so sure. At least, this is what goes through my mind.

[Traveler]

Hi Dbx80,

And if she were to agree to it, I think she would be honest in enforcing it. I think the guilt would eat her up otherwise.

I see you trust her. Based on your story, isn't some skepticism warranted? She began the EA before telling you "ILYBINILWY" and "Maybe Divorce". You say it was secret, involved flirty texts, and the most dangerous thing of all--she says he really listens to her. By now, you probably realize listening is relationship glue! If there was any doubt there was intention behind it, note she said she didn't mind if you dated.

She's maybe not the Devil in Disguise, but also maybe not the Avatar of Honesty?

I'm skeptical of allowing someone who's misled you to self-policy your boundaries for you. I leave the discussion of "Dinner" or "Not Dinner" to others. I have no personal experience with affairs.

[LH19]

Well DB you certainly aren’t the first person to think their situation is different and go against DB principles. One of the most important things I learned from my experience is that as a man you need to learn to control your actions and emotions. Right now you are being manipulated by your w and the longer you allow that to happen the longer you will continue to suffer.