This was posted by Sandi2 from the links you steered me to.
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The WAW will always refer to "the other problems in the M". She feels "that" is the basis of what's happening .....not her A.
So, do you know what problems she's referring to? I dare say it includes every year you've been M.[/quote}
Let me throw this in free of charge. I talked to my H for years, trying to get him more involved in our R. I needed emotional intimacy but he didn't have a clue as to how to do that. By the time I was in an EA my feeling for him was in the trash can. But that was when he came to life....when he discovered OM. I think most WAW's involved in an EA, have a feeling of resentfulness toward their H for waiting until things got to the point of OM entering the picture before he begins to open his eyes & ears to what's going on in the MR. The WAW is thinking, "So this is what it took to wake you up"! The problem is that she may feel it's too little too late.
I'm not defending her but rather trying to enlighten you on what she may be feeling. She will deny OM/EA b/c that is easier. If you have solid proof then she will have an attitude of "So...what of it?" Then she'll try to reverse everything to make you out to be the bad guy. So, be prepared.
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The WAW will always refer to "the other problems in the M". She feels "that" is the basis of what's happening .....not her A. So, do you know what problems she's referring to? I dare say it includes every year you've been M.
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I'm not defending her but rather trying to enlighten you on what she may be feeling. She will deny OM/EA b/c that is easier. If you have solid proof then she will have an attitude of "So...what of it?" Then she'll try to reverse everything to make you out to be the bad guy. So, be prepared.
This is EXACTLY what my admitted contributions to my marriage problems were and EXACTLY what the W did and said before and again last night.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
God... I just spent a hour writing and it went poof...
I can't do it again right now.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
This post is me journaling but I'm ALWAYS open to comments on the conversations.
The last couple of days have been interesting. We had a talk day before yesterday which I initiated. I thought I would ask her about going to MC. I don't want to go because she's still in the A as previously stated but she brought it up the other day so I figured I'd ask what she wanted to get out of it and I could take her attitude temperature.
Her attitude sucked...
About MC, she said she wanted to improve our communication because we can't talk anymore. I'm DBing and detaching so she's interpreting that as me being rude. I'm really not. I'm being very cordial, validating like a madman and not saying anything when I'm unsure which way to go.
Her biggest deal is when I enforce a boundary. She says that I'm doing everything on my terms, especially communicating. (That's because I am. Mostly, enforcing boundaries.) An example would be that when she starts calling me names I disengage. In the last week she's called me a F-ing tool, A-hole and basically called me a liar about five times.
The other day I needed to ask her about a range date. (Not a date date, a calendar date) So I emailed her the Q. She called me immediately to ask why I emailed her instead of calling. (I used to email her regularly) I really didn't have an answer so I just said, "I don't know, I email you all the time." Then she started arguing about how often, why we can't communicate. Blah, blah, blah... I asked her before not to call me at work to talk about MR stuff so I said, I'd really rather not talk about this while I'm at work. She continued. I reminded her again. She continued, so I hung up.
Later when I was home she wanted to talk again but my S1.5 was out on the deck with us. So I said, "Can we talk about this after the kids go to bed?" (My boundary) She started spewing about me controlling when we talk. I said, "I just don't want to talk in front of the kids for any reason. It's not good for their health." She continued. I stood up and walked back into the house. She's interpreting all of this as controlling and doing things only on my terms.
I wanted to start scheduling the days of the week that we're responsible for taking care of the kids. I figure we'll definitely be co-parenting most of the time right now but it allows us the freedom to make appointments, GAL, etc. I told her I would put it on a shared Google calendar. She said she didn't want to use any tech and she didn't want to use it. I said fine, but just look at it and if you still think it's a bad idea, then so be it. The next day she looks at it and has a cow saying that I totally disregarded her wishes because she said she didn't want to do it.
Another thing we went over during the MC talk was if she would have a plan to gain my trust back. I opened that question with the fact that I'm 50% of the issue in our marriage and I own that but what she was willing to do to take ownership of what she did? The marriage was crappy according to her but what she did was potentially destroy it, endanger the adoption, hurt me and everyone in the family gravely.
She asked me if I thought of all that when I cheated. (In my past, not in this MR) I told her this wasn't about me. She then said that she'd already apologized numerous times, (Only twice) and that she wasn't going to live the next few months going over it again and again. She also said that she was proving she was sorry by "letting me" do all of these things that I've been doing and not reacting to the DBing but "that won't last forever." (She doesn't know what DBing is, she's only seeing and noticing the actions) "Letting me."??? Alrighty then...
Then, I said... "That really isn't going to work for me. You're going to have to prove the A is over and take more responsibility for the situation we find ourselves in before I agree to go to MC. Working on communication isn't my priority for MC right now."
I am working on communication in IC and she knows that. We had a conversation about communication where she told me I wasn't learning to communicate because all I was doing was repeating back to her what she said and agreeing with her on everything. Duh... I told her that I WAS learning to communicate because what I was doing was trying to practice "Active Listening" but I'm not that good at it yet. She just looked at me with a stupid look on her face. (It was priceless. A small victory.) I told her that IC will improve me even if she doesn't benefit from it in the future.
We also talked about her disrespecting me by calling me names and being snide all the time. She agreed that she shouldn't be doing that. Then...
I ended up having to cut off this conversation because she started trying to beat me up with the A is my fault because I didn't meet her needs etc. She started the spew so I told her I wasn't going to let disrespect me or let her beat me up anymore and I went out to the deck. She followed me out there, and started saying she was going to be selling everything and wanted to confirm that I wasn't going to do anything to help her and she was going to sell the BMW first. That one was a definite dig. The bimmer is my baby. She also brought up getting the D and all I had to do was give her the word. I went to my room.
Yesterday's IC went awesome. Told my therapist about the advice I got on the board about changing the perspective about having to go shoot at the range and how I needed to think about the level of anxiety from the W and OM's perspective, that they feel massive anxiety anticipating ME being on the range with THEM. (Which was TOTALLY AWESOME and helped me out with a total epiphany and all of my anxiety flowed out of me!) I relayed the email/phone call thing to her and she asked "Why do you think she called you immediately after she got the email?" BOOM!!! I didn't put it together but she sure did. In a nanosecond. She called not to give me hate and discontent about the email. It was about her anticipation of me seeing him and her on the range.
They both know my past is full of professional and military violent confrontations. They probably are thinking the absolute worst thing ever. Me being on the same firearms range they both are on. I'm a very mellow dude in real life but the W is only thinking in extremes right now. So they are probably scared. HA that's a total joke. That is a complete and total egotistical, self important mindset. To think they're important enough for me to trash the lives of my entire family by doing something that stupid. I might not need my wife but my kids sure do.
I thought about not writing that on the board but I figure I need to put my thoughts out there. I'm not dangerous to anybody or anything. Well, maybe not anything. I'm definitely dangerous to a steak. Any steak is definitely in peril...
So the latest is that for the last couple days, she's not wearing her wedding ring. I'm ignoring it. She knows it's very important to me so I know she's fishing for a confrontation. SORRY! Not happening... Maybe I can use that in the D hearing (If there is one) to get it into the property settlement.
Thanks for listening!!!
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
You're going to have to prove the A is over and take more responsibility for the situation we find ourselves in before I agree to go to MC.
Makes sense. There is no marital relationship while she's in another's arms.
Originally Posted by "Ske0187"
She says that I'm doing everything on my terms, especially communicating.
I applaud you enforcing not being called names. The other partner often initially get upset they can't control you, and that's okay. When I began enforcing boundaries--I see now they're healthy even in a good relationship--my partner would say, "You're controlling when WE do X" and I'd reply, "YOU do X anytime you want. I'm controlling when I do X. You control you. I control me." I'm more sensitive to her boundaries, too.
Not talking about affairs at your desk or in front of your son is also very reasonable. I agree with her, though, only offering "after the kids are asleep" puts you 100% in control. You're controlling this. You want her to talk! Can you offer up any other times e.g. lunchtime or after dropping your son off so she has choices, too?
Originally Posted by "Ske0187"
I told her I would put it on a shared Google calendar. She said she didn't want to use any tech and she didn't want to use it. I said fine, but..
How about "Fine, I'll post it on the fridge" to validate she doesn't want to use tech?
I hate Google Calendar, too, Sorry, Google.
Originally Posted by "Ske0187"
she told me I wasn't learning to communicate because all I was doing was repeating back to her what she said and agreeing with her on everything. Duh... I told her that I WAS learning to communicate because what I was doing was trying to practice "Active Listening". She just looked at me with a stupid look on her face. (It was priceless. A small victory.) I told her that IC will improve me even if she doesn't benefit from it in the future.
Was that exchange an example of active listening OR of scoring a victory for your relationship?
Listening with empathy isn't easy. I often try to paraphrase (use different words) which makes me focus more on her message and tests that I really understood what I thought she was saying.
Bad active listening: Wife: "I hate it when you do things like that." Husband: "You hate it when I do things like that."
Good active listening: Wife: "I hate it when you do things like that." Husband: "It really frustrates you when I don't put the toilet seat down?"
In the above scenario: Her: "You aren't learning to communicate because all I'm doing is repeating back what I say!" Him: "You don't feel like I'm hearing you, because I parroted what you said." Her: "Yes!! Could you stop that?" Him: "I'll try!"
There really is no end date. She lives in another room right now so there's no dropping off.
I'm in a holding pattern/pseudo friend zone until our son's adoption is finalized. We're waiting on the date. It'll be within the next 10 days. That is actually my #1 priority. Outside of my SIL & BIL no one knows about this. I'm keeping it this way because my sisters/nieces and the rest of her fam would be devastated and it would put a pawl over the entire celebration. We are still celebrating because we have fought so hard for him for the last 1.5 years and can at least keep him out of the foster system. It's a happy day all within the bubble of this horribleness.
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Not talking about affairs at your desk or in front of your son is also very reasonable. I agree with her, though, only offering "after the kids are asleep" puts you 100% in control. You're controlling this. You want her to talk! Can you offer up any other times e.g. lunchtime or after dropping your son off so she has choices, too?
The time was only really for this specific case. However, it has been my go to time to talk. I brought this up to my therapist and she said the same thing. I should offer her a time but say "or when you're otherwise available. " or similar.
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How about "Fine, I'll post it on the fridge" to validate she doesn't want to use tech?
We haven't talked about our sitch to the nanny yet. She probably knows or has noticed a new occupant in the spare bedroom but she has her own family issues and I don't want to pile our BS on to her yet. Probably after the adoption. So, until then, it'll have to stay electronic. How does iOS calendar sound???
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Was that exchange an example of active listening OR of scoring a victory for your relationship?
Well... It was what my therapist recommended. The actual purpose was to point out that I was demonstrating something she had so much emphasis on in our M and that her expectations were so low that she missed the fact that I was trying to listen to her intently. I didn't want to say, "Look at me I'm changing!!" It was a victory in our relationship based on her reaction in that it made her think about what I was actually attempting. But! It was somewhat satisfying on the interpersonal side too.
Based on the DB methodology, I think I'm doing a few things right, a few things wrong and some things that are in between that I need to improve on. Two of the things that I really need to improve is paraphrasing and validating in a way that doesn't sound like I'm doing it out of a book. I'm not really parroting but it could definitely be smoother. My therapist comes up with these validations so smoothly it's HATEFUL!
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Brene Brown says there are four qualities to empathy: 1. Perspective Taking 2. Non-Judgement 3. Recognizing emotion in other people 4. Feeling that
Yesterday my partner had an IC session. I feared her IC encouraged her to take a step back, so when I asked her about her session and she said she was too tired to talk, that fed into my fears. It's hard to validate when you're being judgy. My relationship's not on a knife's edge anymore, but I can do better.
Originally Posted by "Ske0187"
The actual purpose was to point out that I was demonstrating something she had so much emphasis on in our M and that her expectations were so low that she missed the fact that I was trying to listen to her intently. I didn't want to say, "Look at me I'm changing!!"
I see, you wanted her to realize repeating things was actually an example of you trying to communicate better. I get what you're trying to do. Mixing validation and disagreement can be tricky.
After the last debacle of our last conversation, it appears we've reached some sort of equilibrium. We're being cordial and having some conversations (Short ones) when the kids are awake and we're eating dinner.
My patience was tested the other day out of the blue. The W went out to clean up the garage. Which she did. In the middle of it dinner was ready so we were eating and then she went back out. Later she came back in and said, "I wish you would've come out there to help me finish. (I was cleaning up after dinner. My turn for the kids meals according to the schedule.)
I almost started the "You forfeited the right to ask me to help you do anything, let alone complain about it!" speech. But I didn't. I was a little pissed but I blew it off and didn't react. I just said, "Oh, I thought you were done."
I'm mentally vacillating from one extreme to the other. From, "I'll do anything to save my marriage." through "There's no way I can stay married.". This week, I'm leaving. Next minute, hour, day, week... Who knows? I suppose this is why it's best not to make rash, emotional decisions.
I know i'm not supposed to think of the big D but my mind goes there when I think of the amount of time I have left on the earth in comparison to how long it would take to be happy again without her. How many years will it take to do all of this work only to discover it didn't work in the first place and we get divorced anyway? It'll only take 9-12 months to get through the legal part of the divorce.
The court moved the adoption date to next month but acknowledged the permanent placement in the adoptive home and took our S out of the foster care system. That's some consolation for the date move.
Crappy though!
During IC last week my therapist asked me to read the book, "Un-%uck Yourself". It made a lot of sense and will be very helpful to me when I figure out which way this goes.
There's a saying in the Navy about ejecting from a malfunctioning airplane, "Know when to go, then go." My marriage is the airplane and I'm not sure if I can save it yet but right now, even though it's pointed down, it's still airborne.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
As indicated in my original post, this is my fourth marriage. I thought I had learned many things in my experience and was doing all of the right things. Apparently not. When one is not meeting the whole "meeting emotional/physical needs" thing is so big that you would think your S would mention it SOMETIME before they run off to get that from someone else.
But alas, no...
It just blows me away.
This time is different for me from all of the other marriages due to the kids being adopted and so young. That's one of the things that makes me so angry at the W. She says she knew all of her feelings in her rewrite of our history before and after we started the adoption process. Even before we had any of the kids in our house. I can't even believe she would've had those feelings and still let me go ahead and think that we would be building this family. It's not like she got pregnant and didn't have a choice. She had a choice. She could've said something instead of affecting the lives of our wonderful little kids.
I was just reading Wolfman's string and it occurred to me how much this forum is helping me deal with this. I keep reading the same (But different) stories about WWs and WHs and how crazy they are, from one day to the next doing things that are COMPLETELY out of character, being combative, emotional, cold, uncaring or unaware of the effects and consequences of their actions, dropping the bomb, etc.
I wish I would've had this resource when my first marriage broke up. When I was younger, I used to think that therapy, groups and those things were a bunch of hocus pocus. I was skeptical at best. I was WRONG.
After this experience, I'm thoroughly convinced that shared suffering and verbalization with people going through the same experience is cathartic. This might sound strange but I feel better reading other people's issues that so closely resemble what I'm going through personally. Seeing how people are there that care, who empathize and provide sage guidance based on their own crisis resolutions. (Or not)
Thank you to all of those people who open up and especially to those providing advice and guidance.
Just thought I'd throw that out there this morning.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
I am right there with you Ske. This forum has been a godsend. I wasn’t able to save my marriage (probably not a bad thing) but they have definitely helped me save myself. I don’t think I would be doing nearly as well as I am if it weren’t for the people on here who stick around and offer advice long after they have moved on from their sitches. Glad you are finding the forum as helpful as I have found it. (((HUGS)))
