You don't necessarily need to retain a lawyer, but you absolutely need to have a few consultations with lawyers now, and ask them in advance that you want to talk about the future 50-50 scenario. Its either a very smart or very terrible move, depending on your jurisdiction. When you do consult, what you need to ask is if there is precedent for this in your area, how binding would a separation agreement be over time, and what is an appropriate and enforceable timeline.
The smart part of this is that she is probably thinking very short term and you can give up more short term for a better long term solution. The negative is that you are kicking the can down the road, no matter what she agrees to now, assume this will be a fight and the more time you give up primary custody and pay her support, the stronger her position gets to preserve this as status quo. It is often impossible to make any changes to a situation after a year. And she has made zero sacrifices so far - whether it is now, 6 months or 2 years it doesn't matter, she will fight any changes. And while you may think its better for the kids if she doesn't work full time now, I would disagree. I think its more important they get equal time with happy parents even if that means a couple more days of daycare.
So, I would look into something along the lines of at most a 6 month transition to 50-50, something like a 2 year limit on spousal support, and also write in long term expenses like activities and college should be 50-50. If you think its hard to pay the bills now, just wait 10 years. Also, I would give a deadline for her to sell or vacate the house and then you move back in. She will probably sabotage selling it for as long as she can since you are footing the bill, so pick a date based on how long you can afford knowing it wont sell until she vacates.
I know this is all scary, but continuing on in your current path was really the worst outcome. Now things are moving. Accept that it will get worse before it gets better, but know that it will get better.
Uni. I wrote my furious response to the last few posts 5:30 am. This morning but ran out of time. Much calmer now over your sich and your W's response about "winning her back"
I am amazed at how much support you have garnered here in the last 14hrs, emotionally, legally, etc. You guys are awesome for getting behind Uni so quickly and with such sound advise and compassion. I'm on the same issue with my sich Uni about 50/50 custody and "scary perceived notions that I might hurt myself, or S2" and 50/50 custody discussions. Anything to be used as leverage. I hear you about the depression with the weather change. I had a small panic today, but not an attack and yesterday about the same thing too, before you and IW even mentioned it. Kind of ironic about the thoughts of fall, winter, long long winter until April, moving and being alone with my thoughts during Christmas, New Years, and having even more heightened seasonal blues between Jan- April. 6 months of hell. Pretty scary to imaging what the next 6 months will be alone, but I'm sure that's where we will grow ourselves.
My response from this morning:
Uni. I read this post and I wanted to F@$kin scream after I got to the part about "Winning her back!" Like she is some sort of prize or something? OMG!THE ARROGANCE!!! Granted I know a lot of these WAS'S are hurting, trying to find themselves, are depressed, going through MLC, have childhood traumas and self worth issues, etc. But man. When they gain confidence as they are starting to heal, if they even are as a result of going to therapy.
These WAS's ARE ARROGANT! They drive me crazy with their uncertainties, their indecision, manipulations, their double standards, arrogance, their fickleness, their actions, etc.. How they run hot and cold, how they have the power to stop all this, how when committed to working on the M (real change can develop, if you can even get them to recommit.) I see it in your sich, Wolf's sich, and a lot of others. ITS ABSOLUTE INSANITY! They play these games, but they don't really think they are playing games. They are playing for real. They acuse us of being emotionally unstable, abusive, and reactive with their "$hit tests" they pull in testing someone's limits, gaslight, project, re-write history, etc and wonder why we grow indifferent because of their actions against us, the family, and the M, That our behaviors, and us are at fault, that they claim they are just emotionally reacting to us, when it is us reacting to them with the grief, the marital issues, financial, and emotional sabotage that they cause us. Its like they almost provoke us, then cry victim when we go there. They LOOOVVEE playing that roll. No accountability for anything on their side. If that isn't emotional abuse on their part, I don't know what is?
This is what I hear from them when I read these kind of posts:
"I want space from you, but please try harder to win me back because I am the prize that doesn't have to change, and I want you to do all of the hard work and the changing." "Your emotionally abusive and reactive, but let me make you're life a living hell with the kids, the finances, the marital home, the courts, and the M just to see if that will wake you up enough to change for me, so I get what I want either way, and im padded on the resources as I will use the kids as a bargaining chip in the courts."
She "Grabbed tour arm and held on tight and started crying." You almost want to ask them. WTF are you crying for? You wanted this, you initiated it, you planned it, and you took multiple actions on it, never thinking of the consequence, or the follow through with my end of it? Should have filed an assault charge against her for grabbing your arm. That you feared for your life. You found her scary and emotionally unstable. You know why they are crying? Because they are morning the death of you and the M, but they don't want to fully see you go. They just want to keep you at an arms length, and they will use you, the kids, your current location, and limbo to string you along. They want to move somewhere familiar, or somewhere new, away from you for a fresh start and eventually find themselves, see other people romantically, but they want you to follow them too. It just perplexes me? Kind of like "I want to keep you around just in case." "And if I don't really need to. I could sure use your money for me and the kids." "You can watch them every other weekend while I have my girls night out, and pursue other men."
Mine recently shared with me her little fantasy, that she wanted to move to Iowa in a year, become a college professor, that I could follow her and S2, and open up my own Pizza business. (One of my dreams.) She even found the perfect store front and building real cheap for me too. It would logically be a hit, a financial success, and a good move, and growing experience for me. But why the hell would I want to stay emotionally attached to someone that wants nothing to do with me, than more than a friend? And we wonder why people ghost one another and go NC to protect ourselves? She'll share all this with me one day, than ignore me like I didn't exist "to protect herself" another day. But they can't understand why our moods fluctuate from day to day, moment to moment, from the harm to us they commit, to our family, and all the grief that they are causing us.
This is all about power, and control, who had it during the M, and who is taking it back. They don't want to submit, and they want it both ways, all day, every day, all the time. During the marriage if you took the power and control, made some of the decisions, and took the lead, they wanted egalitarianism and equalism.
If you procrastinated, or fell behind in a chore because you were dog tired, injured, or keeping up with her social schedule, you weren't being responsible, but if they didn't even clean up after themselves after a meal, the kids, or their side of the bedroom, you are the critical nitpicking bad guy for saying something or holding them to the same standard they hold you to, but want you to overlook their errors, but not yours. If you went to discipline the kids, you are overbearing, but then when the kids act up and you have to command it when she can't handle it, its ok.
They wanted to do half the work or none of the work but yet still get all the results and benefits from you and the marriage. They wanted attention, romantic feelings, a spark of interest, a beautiful social life of fresh and new experiences, all the time where you attend all functions, every weekend, but never understand that you need to take the time to maintain your home, keep up with your job, and have hobbies and a life outside of that. "You work too hard and too much and never find any time for me." "But I need money from you so I can pay the bills, maintain my lifestyle, and social life more" "I will analyze all of your behavior, but you can never analyze, or criticize mine or have standards. That's controlling." "I want you to handle all the bills, and do all the chores after a 55hr. work week, but I don't want to cook a meal for you, or do anything but watch Netflix and Reality TV, and play games on my phone, because I'm spent when I get home from work." " When you do it, I resent you for it. But when I do it, its ok because I deserve it, and you are considered mean if you say something about it. "I resent you because I have to grocery shop, and you never do it anymore, and I feel like I'm doing everything. But I won't ask you to come with me, or say what's wrong, or I need more help. Ill just hold it in, resent you, put walls around me, kill our love and our marriage, then wait until year 10 and 1 day to plan my escape, collect alimony and child support, divorce you, and start a new life and find a new man.
I am genuinely convinced that these women cannot love you for who you are, but for what you do and how you make then feel about themselves, or what benefit or new experience you can provide to them. But they expect you to love them for who they are and never hold them TO YOUR STANDARDS OR BOUNDARIES. They only look at you as an accessory they're just in love with the idea of you.
I just want to know why I keep seeing it over and over and over, on here, in my personal life, and other family member's life and plenty of divorced men that I speak to, that when a woman's love turn's cold for you, and she wants to push you out of her life. All of a sudden (Especially after children.) She will paint a picture in her head that you are some kind of abusive monster. Some go as far to charge false DV claims against husbands that never laid a finger on them, or raised their voice to them. I've just seen it too many times.
Now ladies. That's not to say we Men don't have our issues either. We cheat, we fall out of love, we get overzealous and greedy for resources, we have MLC's, gambling issues, temperament issues, abuse issues, addictions, etc. I'm really trying to remain balanced, and remember this is a people and societal issue, not a man vs woman issue. But from a financial, legal and logical standpoint from my research. Marriage just isn't worth it in today's era. Too many risks where the Man has nothing to gain, and the Woman based on her emotions in a court of family law, has everything to gain. A man risks his retirement, his finances, his job, his house, and his kids. (Thanks No Fault Divorce Laws.)
Ladies on here like DejaVu6 So Torn, and others, my heart genuinely goes out to you. I genuinely feel for you. But I notice a common theme with the ladies sich's too. These men who have done them wrong are about power too, and who has it. Whether it be emotionally, physically, legally, or financially. Narcisstic men who have power and weild it through manipulation, trickery, selfishness, lack of duty, addictions, affairs, and divorce. When the women take the power over NGS guys like Wolf, Uni and somewhat myself. It pi$$es me off too. We have a serious problem in our society, with moral decay, men and women lacking old traditional values, marriage, pre-marriage, its values and teachings, lack of duty, heavily reliant on emotions, which can now in a family court be 2/3rds of the law. I'm trying not to make this sexist, but just want to expose what is really going on out there today. I've been so quiet about this for months because I don't want to offend anyone here, and have been frowned upon before by other members before for mentioning these things. But I love you guys and mean no disrespect to either sex, it just is what it is and needs to be said if we are going to learn what the symptoms and origins are for causing this today, learn, grow and change from it. People need to be aware of it. I know we can't go backwards in time, but we have to stop this crash course by examining our current values and relationships. I only say all this because I want to be more aware of how people change, for what reasons and influences, etc.
Sorry to blow up your thread Uni. Im just validating what a lot of us, (especially guys) are experiencing, and how the current family legal system has us at a huge disadvantage when it comes to the custody of our children. Ok. Im going to put my mind, and my bias down now, and focus on just self improvement for myself, my son, others, and the people on here. If I stumble upon anything than can help us all feel better, I will share.
IH- lol! It is very frustrating isn't it! Frustrating and confusing. All of this behavior you describe, in most cases it's coming from a person who was previously stable, loving and loyal. I don't know what in the world happens that flips that switch but a lot of them certainly go all Jeckle & Hyde on us. In my case I never really did get angry at my XW, I think this place and Michele's books had a lot to do with that because both helped me see things from her perspective, and understand that she was hurting and in pain as well. And that she was acting on emotions and LOGICALLY didn't understand why she was doing it. She said many times "I don't know what's wrong, I just don't want to be married anymore" and I think that is the case for a lot of WAS's. They might say it's because you didn't do this or that in the M but in most cases the things they are complaining about weren't a problem for them years ago, so why now? Because they are trying hard to justify something they can't explain or even understand.
I was and am not mad at W and I told her that at BD. It shocked her when I said it. She even asked if I wanted to yell at her, that it would make me feel any better.
I said, "Would it change anything?"
She said, "No."
And then I said, "so there's no point. You said what you are feeling, and I respect that. You were honest, you told me, so what should I be mad about?"
She didn't know what to say.
Of course I was an emotional wreck at the time, but I held it together long enough for that conversation.
They are in another world, because of the various emotional trauma they have been through in the past. That is why they say the things they say and do the things they do, and that is why they do not make any sense.
It is like trying to reason with a two year old who says "no" to everything. It cannot be done.
All we can do is sympathize and show empathy. And we have to take care of ourselves.
I feel like journaling a bit quickly, so won't have time to respond fully to everyone. I recognize what I am about to write is a lot of self-pitying drivel, but it is how I feel at the moment.
I am feeling this overwhelming fear and anxiety taking hold, it seems to be increasing by the day this week. I feel a tightness in my chest, shallow breathing, low appetite. I decided to take a week off from going to the gym. It feels exactly like back in April when I realized my W was thinking about D.
Someone close to me yesterday gave me the advice to first just think about what I want. Ignore my W, ignore what people say I should ask for, ignore what might happen. Just first... think about what I want. That's all. This seems to be helping a little little bit.
But predominantly I am spinning. I don't know how I'm going to do this. I am afraid of my W, of the courts, of losing touch with my kids. I am full of self-doubt about my ability to stay whole and healthy, to be a great father to my kids, to pull my life together. Even though I made progress the last few months, facing down the next year looks absolutely terrifying to me.
I don't know how I'm going to do this on my own. I am so accustomed to my W's support with the kids. I don't feel fit as a father to do this. I'm not used to doctor appointments and school volunteering and after-school activities.
I foresee things getting really awful between my W and I. A nasty court battle. Communication breakdown. The kids suffering in the middle. Abuse allegations. Slander. Living in fear that I am being documented and watched.
I don't know how I'm going to do this on my own. I am so accustomed to my W's support with the kids. I don't feel fit as a father to do this. I'm not used to doctor appointments and school volunteering and after-school activities.
Immerse yourself into this. By having the kids and focusing all of your energy into them and feeling their unconditional love will help you a great deal in the daily grind. Yes after they are settled into bed, its hard to suppress the thoughts of W and the sitch. This is a great time to get on this board and read or pick up one of the many books suggested here and read. Focus on stepping into the role of being the best, loving father you can be. It will definitely help your self-esteem and confidence which makes it easier to put yourself first in regards to the MR.
You probably didn't mean to set me down this path but you got me thinking:
I need to let go of outcomes. I learned to do this with my MR. Now I need to do it with other aspects of my life. I need to get out of my engineering problem solver mindset which just provokes intense anxiety.
I want 50-50 with my kids. Maybe I will get it. Maybe I won't. Maybe I'll be in a nasty court battle, maybe I won't. I can fight for what I want, but whether or not I get that, I need to be prepared to live a happy fulfilling life. Is that not what DB is all about? Being prepared to handle anything life throws our way?
My relationship with my kids is important. But it also doesn't define me. I do not need to live and die by the outcome. I will fight for what I want. But I do not need to be afraid. These relationship outcomes, whether as a husband, father, son, or friend -- do not define who I am. They are not the measuring stick of a man.
If it comes down to a nasty court battle you are going to be hard pressed not getting at least joint (50/50) custody unless you have a history of recorded abuse. Judges don't want to break a family apart and are aware that kids need the role of both parents for development. Just take your L's advice, they are your advocate and will protect your rights as a father. I've found that a female L representing other men that I have seen go through the D process with a custody battle seem to get a more favorable outcome, at least in my area.
Ignore my W, ignore what people say I should ask for, ignore what might happen. Just first... think about what I want.
It will be permanent after the divorce so make sure it is what you want for you going forward for the rest of your life. Do not be tempted by NGS but at the same time you don't want revenge.
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I am afraid of my W.
Completely reasonable. She hurt you like no other person could and now can hurt you even more. Just don't let the fear overwhelm you. You are a strong, capable person unchien and so far you have survived 100% of your worst days.
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I foresee things getting really awful between my W and I. A nasty court battle. Communication breakdown. The kids suffering in the middle. Abuse allegations. Slander. Living in fear that I am being documented and watched.
All very likely. That is why we have all recommended getting a lawyer. The lawyer is payed to fight for you. It was the best money I have spent in my life. I have been accused, slandered, and everything I do is documented.
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I don't know how I'm going to do this on my own. I am so accustomed to my W's support with the kids. I don't feel fit as a father to do this.
I was a stay at home dad for the first 5 years of D13 life and have been the primary caregiver for all 13 years of her life. When she started ballet I learned to put her hair in a bun, at bed I sing her songs, while in gymnastics I learned to braid her hair, when she had a fever I took her to the doctors, when she threw up in bed I cleaned it up and took her to my bed, when she needed a shot I lovingly held her, when she cried for no reason my shoulder got wet, when she was bullied at school I taught her to stand up for herself, when she struggles with homework I sit down and help, when she is hungry I teach her to cook, when she needs time alone I love her from a distance, and when her mom left her I was there.
I didn't know how I was going to do each one of these things, was unqualified, but I did them regardless and you will as well. I failed a lot (I mean a whole lot) but D13 remembers all of my fails as loving memories just as yours will. I don't feel fit as a father either but I do the best I can and you will will too. unchien I am here for you if you need.
Last edited by rooskers; 10/04/1906:31 PM.
1st BD December 26, 2008 PA admitted to by XW December 29, 2008
2nd BD May 23, 2019 Daughter confirms EA Divorce Finalized July 18, 2019
I don't know how I'm going to do this on my own. I am so accustomed to my W's support with the kids. I don't feel fit as a father to do this. I'm not used to doctor appointments and school volunteering and after-school activities.
Remember that you are planning to co-parent with your W even after D. You are not getting sole custody of the kids so she will still be there taking care of some of this and it will not be your sole responsibility. It will be a big change, hard initially but you will get used to the new routine and responsibilities over time.
Originally Posted by unchien
T I foresee things getting really awful between my W and I. A nasty court battle. Communication breakdown. The kids suffering in the middle. Abuse allegations. Slander. Living in fear that I am being documented and watched.
You are back in analysis paralysis. Just a thought here - one thing that may help is consulting with a lawyer. That way you get an idea of the best and worst case scenarios in the D and help you think to a plan rather than analyze all possible scenarios.
Take care of yourself. Eat well, meditate, exercise and most importantly don't hesitate to reach out for help whether it is going to a doctor, talking to a friend, increased IC sessions etc. This is very stressful but stay strong and be positive that things will be ok in the long term.
