Another case of WW

[44tries2]

Sandi, I have read a LOT of your posts. And I can honestly say your posts here might be the best I have ever read, for me personally anyway. Thanks for continuing to share so much gold with all of us. We can never be reminded too many times.

LovingIt, we're all rooting for you.

[LovingIt]

First of all, thanks for taking the time Sandi. I really appreciate your input since you've contributed so much on WW specifically. And thanks for all the other vets (LH19, AnotherStander, everyone else) who commented with words of encouragement and 2x4s

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Are you in competition with OM and the prize is your WW? If you answer honestly, you may say that is how you feel. We want you to have a different mindset in how you see yourself, your life, your WW, & possible reconciliation. I would dare guess you have mainly thought about her and her feelings......her actions......your chances with her......and what it will take to get this great prize back into your arms again.
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It initially started that way with me 100% pursuing her as the prize. Since WW moved out and we had separation, I learned from various resources that I need to be happy and fulfilled on my own again, and that I need to become the prize. Is part of me still doing it, probably, but fake it till you make it?

If I step back objectively, I have supportive friends (who's not given me biased advice, but patiently listened and probed me on my feelings), have a great career, in good physical shape, and have lots of hobbies and sports. Aside from this current BS, I actually have a great life that I am very appreciative for.

So what I'm working on is getting my daily emotions in check, slowly breaking out of that initial anxiety from the loss of attachment / codependency, and regaining my confidence as a single person, which took quite a hit from the BDs.

I have most of my lower level Maslow's hierarchy of needs met, so now I'm getting to the meaning of life question, and what brings me happiness and fulfillment on my own outside of the stuff I'm already doing - which is really hard. If I could ask for one thing aside from this BS to make me happier that would be for my mom to be alive again.

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In other words, what guides you through life? Where do you draw the line? When I read the above quote, I get the sense that you are not certain. I want to encourage you to take time to know yourself, first, before deciding to reconcile or divorce. Take this time to really think about your self respect, your belief system, your desires and personal goals in life. What type of man are you? Do you have high morals and/or religious standards by which you conduct life? Do you feel your integrity has been compromised......or could be compromised? Do you feel others respect you? Are you a leader or follower? Who called the shots at home?
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I hold myself to high moral standards when it comes to how I treat people (not religious - but raised by buddhist mom), but I also do have do party and have fun and have my vices. I am authentic, honest and direct. I feel that my friends, family, co-workers definitely respects me for who I am. I felt respected in the relationship up until BD and how everything played out after.

Do I feel my integrity or self-respect has been compromised? No, because I did not commit the infidelity. Maybe some of my self-respect in how I pursued initially, but more of my pride because people might think that I'm weak for staying in the MR?

I don't think anyone wishes for this to happen and says that they will be okay with it. Prior to BD, I always thought I would immediately end a relationship if my partner had an affair, and WW thought so too. She had a surprised look when I didn't blow up on her after BD. What made me consider reconciliation is how everyone (close friends, family, IC, resources) says that I should take my time navigating thru this decision, meaning that people didn't see infidelity as black and white relationship ending as I initially thought. The first thing I did was research whether infidelity was MR ending, and discovered that relationship experts (Esther, MWD, Gottman, etc...) seems to suggest this is reconcilable, and it may be better? Could just be confirmation bias.

I'm neither leader or follower... grew up as only child and moved around a lot with single parent, so I would call myself more of a loner Dealt with a lot of hardship growing up between parents divorcing, moving around a lot, mom dying, etc. So I know I'll survive, bounce back, and be okay.

With regards to calling shots at home, we try to make it pretty equal. We alternate on who gets to pick meals or movies, etc. We make joint decisions when it comes to home finance or travel related decisions. We keep our own spending budget, so we buy stuff that we want individually. WW is very smart, logical (or so I thought), strong willed, and kind of an alpha, but she always felt like I had more power in the relationship, so we tried to make it fair.

Is this getting into the Alpha vs Beta, Masculine vs Feminine dynamics? Been researching a lot of that along with High Value vs Low Value (prize), Blue pill vs Red pill (a bit extreme in my mind).

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Yes, she will probably want to talk, but she wants to talk about......HER feelings, accomplishing nothing. Remember ping-pong, and you have to take yourself out of that dimension......or it goes on & on. Remove yourself from the drama. At the moment, you can't trust her. You can't believe her when she talks about going back home. She's throwing you bread crumbs. As long as some other guy is in her head, you will just be used for whatever benefits her.
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So what do I do when she wants to talk about us? Do I agree, and then listen and validate. Do not pursue and reiterate the conditions / boundaries of ending the A and complete transparency? Or do I just decline / avoid the opportunity to talk completely? If not, then when will I know when/how she is serious?

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If you really mean you want the opportunity to put forth your best self.........then you will see your opportunity for developing your best self is NOW, while you are separated. See, I know you aren't buying all this self improvement stuff we are talking. I can tell when a newcomer is saying just enough to sound as if he's picking up the correct method/technique...........but he hasn't started applying any of that stuff. He wants a bullet point sheet with the how-to of getting his W back, and preferably, from the OM. smirk There are things you need to heal, to develop, ect. Once she is back in the house, do you seriously believe the wonderful best side of you is going to come out and deal with all the cr@p fallout? No, it doesn't work that way.
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No, I've been researching / reading DB, MB, Love Languages, Mars vs Venus, etc. Learning about emotional needs, communication, codependency vs interdependency, conflict resolution, etc. I told WW and IC that I probably should improve in those areas regardless for my next relationship, and it might even help at work, since a lot of people are scared of me for how I come off :P

But yes, she will probably come back to confront the infidelity / trust issues again. It might suck for us, but I don't think that part can bypassed and worked on my own.

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Have you ever had an affair, or inappropriate behavior with anyone?
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100% NO, and WW has always stated her 100% trust in me in that area.

[sandi2]

Thanks for your responses. Are the two of you currently attending MC? As has been pointed out, it won't be effective toward reconciliation as long as she's in an affair. IMHO, it would be better for you to have IC......and she can do whatever. Some WW's will show up for MC, but their motivation is not to heal and repair. I want you to remember something very important about the WW. She has the unique talent of twisting things to make the H feel as if he is the one who should be trying to earn her trust. I've seen it countless times, and the guy doesn't even catch on to how she has reversed the truth. Sure, he may have been a sorry spouse, but he didn't cheat on her. The WW tries to magnify every mistake he ever made since they first met, and strongly imply that the downfall of their MR is responsible for her affair. Some will even say the H made her do it. You aren't required to straighten her out whenever she makes some indication this is all your fault. However, neither are you required to stand there while she verbally vomits on you. In other words, she's going to tell family & friends her version, making herself look more like victim. Before reconciling with her, she will need to take ownership of the infidelity, and it will be a big mistake if you accept the fault.......believing it will make things easier for her to return to the MR. You see, it's very important that a WW feels remorse for her infidelity and the pain she caused her H, the lies/deceit, etc. Never take her back before she admits how wrong she was and how she deeply regrets hurting you. She owes her H a heart felt apology.

The LBH and WW are on different time waves. Each of them have their own personal issues to work on separately, before they try to work together on the problems they created in the MR. That's why I want to encourage you to take plenty of space & time away from her. So many guys are just focused on getting her back under the same roof again, and one of the biggest mistakes they can make is taking her back without her being required to make amends and agree to certain terms from him (like transparency, etc.). Taking her back too early and too easily is an invitation for more of the same treatment as when she dropped the bomb. Never agree to in-house separation! I've never seen a case where in-house separation was successful. An unrepentant WW who wants to go back home, but sleep in separate bedrooms, is a WW who is not ready to do the necessary work on herself and on the MR. I'm concerned that since she walked away and you are in the home, she'll try to slither back without making any changes. So, beware.

Gotta run, but I'll be back to continue.

[firemann]

I want you to remember something very important about the WW. She has the unique talent of twisting things to make the H feel as if he is the one who should be trying to earn her trust. I've seen it countless times, and the guy doesn't even catch on to how she has reversed the truth. Sure, he may have been a sorry spouse, but he didn't cheat on her. The WW tries to magnify every mistake he ever made since they first met, and strongly imply that the downfall of their MR is responsible for her affair. Some will even say the H made her do it.

I just caught onto it in my sitch. Wow. Just wow,

[sandi2]

Sandi, I have read a LOT of your posts. And I can honestly say your posts here might be the best I have ever read, for me personally anyway. Thanks for continuing to share so much gold with all of us. We can never be reminded too many times.

Ah, that's so sweet, 44, and encouraging to know I might be just a little help to someone. ((hugs))

[LovingIt]

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Are the two of you currently attending MC? As has been pointed out, it won't be effective toward reconciliation as long as she's in an affair. IMHO, it would be better for you to have IC......and she can do whatever.
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Nope. Made the mistake of attending a few MC sessions before WW moved out. I noticed it was not getting thru to WW, and she was spiraling in negative thoughts. At some point, MC said she does not work with couples when there is AP involved still. Then next time I told WW that she does not need to attend, and I do not need her there. I am still going to the same MC for IC, since she has full context and seen us communicate.

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I want you to remember something very important about the WW. She has the unique talent of twisting things to make the H feel as if he is the one who should be trying to earn her trust. I've seen it countless times, and the guy doesn't even catch on to how she has reversed the truth. Sure, he may have been a sorry spouse, but he didn't cheat on her. The WW tries to magnify every mistake he ever made since they first met, and strongly imply that the downfall of their MR is responsible for her affair. Some will even say the H made her do it. smirk You aren't required to straighten her out whenever she makes some indication this is all your fault.
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For a moment there during MC, she was spiraling and said that our relationship was never good, always lacked passion / romance, and that we were not in love and only lived like roommates. At first, I debated with her a bit. After learning about re-writing history and typical WW quotes, I just kind of looked at her funny like she was crazy and smiled.

Since she moved out, she has completely flipped and now recalls all the positives in our relationship. She even mentioned she can picture sitting on the MC couch, and how her thoughts were completely spiraling in the negatives. Again, I just kind of looked at her, smiled and nodded.

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That's why I want to encourage you to take plenty of space & time away from her. So many guys are just focused on getting her back under the same roof again, and one of the biggest mistakes they can make is taking her back without her being required to make amends and agree to certain terms from him (like transparency, etc.). Taking her back too early and too easily is an invitation for more of the same treatment as when she dropped the bomb.
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Yeah, prior to her moving out, we had a few relapses of single nights where she did not come home. Each time she seemed to feel guilty about it, but then it would happen again 2 weeks later. This went on for about 2 months. The relapses were extremely painful, re-living fresh pain each time. This is why when she mentioned moving back and working on the relationship last Friday, I immediately cringed at the proposal - couldn't even hide it :P

So we agreed to NOT move back in for now. I mentioned needing some serious professional help before moving back in, but also reminded her that we can't work on the relationship as long as there is an AP. Kind of left it at that.

[sandi2]

There's a lot of conflicting information on how NC / Radio Silence / Going Dark should work... and I don't see the specific in Sandi's rules or MWD's book. It mostly just says don't initiate as it is pursuing, but does not mention on whether to respond.

Complete zero contact and Going Dark are what I consider extreme methods, and there have been such cases where I suggested it. However, if the couple has children, it’s nearly impossible to maintain that status for much length of time……but some people try. Generally, I think when we refer to NC, we are really suggesting that the LBS should not find excuses to initiate contact with the WS. My eyes roll at some of the excuses a LBH finds to contact his cheating WW. We can tell him not to initiate contact unless it's business or about the kids.......and it they will find some flimsy excuse and claim they have a question about the kids, when in reality......it's the betrayed spouse missing the wayward. But anyway, it is a decision the betrayed spouse makes, and he doesn’t discuss it with his WW……he just does the action of not initiating, if that makes sense. I believe Another Stander explained it. I'll just add that most WW's get angry when the H isn't sitting on the ready button every time she calls or texts him with some useless stuff. For example, if she sends a photo of a cute kitten, and no text message..........I see it useless stuff. Why? B/c the WW uses these forms of contact to keep the disrespected H emotionally attached. And why does she want him emotionally attached when she doesn't want to be his W? It secures her backup plan. Hubby will be there for her when her affair fizzles out. Everything is about her selfishness.

You would be surprised how some WW's suddenly become so friendly & chatty in texting the H she has betrayed, monopolizing his time and jacking his hopes that she might actually miss him or reconsider the M/D. Selfishness! Write it on the inside of your eyeballs. She is not "reaching out" to you. She is keeping you emotionally attached for very selfish reasons. If only the LBH was able to lay his emotions aside and see her wayward nature as it currently operates, he would run for the hills and never look back. It's sad how he continues to look for glimpses of the girl he married. She's gone. Will she ever return? Let me just say this......... it won't be suddenly. Don't trust any sudden change in her that .........run! It's fake. She'll have to work very hard and make a lot of inner changes before she is close to being the woman you thought she was. Is it possible? Yes, it is very possible, but it won't happen like you think it will.

We have some "business" stuff to discuss, but if she wants to talk about how she's feeling, do I continue listen / validate / ask questions, or don't even engage in the feeling conversations?

Now don't jump to the polar opposite of what we say. If it a business meeting, then stick to taking care of business. If she tries to bring the relationship into the discussion, I suggest you try to steer her back on track, if possible. You don't want to be mute if this really is about business. If she wants to talk about "her" feelings, you can listen to what she has to say, as long as she keeps it civil and doesn't start raising her voice, calling you names, threatening, or a number of other negative things. If this is the first discussion since the split, I would caution you to expect almost any emotion to come out of her. WW's operate from whatever emotion they feel at the moment. You, on the other hand, are suppose to have logic, so don't let her emotions sway you. If she gets out of hand, then you leave. (BTW, I suggest you don't meet somewhere you can't walk away (like your house) should she start screaming, cursing, etc.) If she keeps a civil tongue, then you can listen to what she has to say. Mostly nod your head to indicate you hear what she is saying. This is "her" talk, and unless she is trying to pick your feelings, or if she proposes a reconciliation, or whatever......let it be her talk, and don't interrupt her with your opinion or argue with her about how she feels. This is separate from business, but WW's have a hard time separating their feelings from everything else. If you can validate her feelings, then say something very short & simple, like......."I can see how that could be upsetting". Don't use the same validation statement over & over, don't get chatty, and don't throw a validation statement out there every time she ends a sentence. Don't let let it go on for hours, b/c you should not being saying very much. Do not agree to her coming back to the house, or even a reconciliation. It won't be genuine, and she hasn't done the work. Be extremely careful and have no outcome expectations. Now let me ask..........who really wants to talks, you or WW.

When it comes to validation, Another Stander is the best. I don't see many men as good. I honestly have a little problem validating the feelings of WW's, just knowing how WW’s are, but maybe that's just me. Some nice-guys really over kill with validation statements. I see a lot of newcomers who become too distracted trying to find an opportunity to validate, and they completely miss other things b/c they are so intensely focused on how to validate the wayward person. I think they (especially those with NGS) see it along the same lines as talking their way back into the R, and that's not it at all. You may notice in some threads where the LBH reports that he validated.........but he doesn't tell us what he actually said, so who knows if he did the right way or wrong way. Nice guys are quick to jump on the validation wagon……but they don’t want to do anything that falls in the category of tough love.

I'm a believer in the WW facing a loss that her H previously provided. I’m not suggesting that he acts like a jerk, but neither do I think he should be so available and accommodating. Not for punitive reasons, but b/c she didn’t appreciate what she had, and she took him for granted…….and part of the process she needs to experience in order to fully recover, is a glimpse of the empty space that her H once occupied.

I hope people understand what I’m trying to communicate here. IMHO, once the WW has dropped the bomb or the betrayed spouse discovers there is a third party……there should be an immediate shift that makes a statement about the betrayed spouse. He is not going to be soft, tender, accommodating, available, chatty, or BFF's with the wayward spouse who has disrespected him. I suggest there that there is a noticeable crack/break in their MR. That means the betrayed spouse will not pretend that everything is honky-dory in their MR, and play happy family with the wayward spouse. I’m going to stop telling LBH’s to be polite, b/c somehow they manage to turn into chatty bagpipes that can’t find the function key to close his mouth. Just be civil. Don’t be a jerk………just be civil following the period after the BD. Most men want to start showing his changes and dancing to the tune of “please pick me”, and jumping through hoops of fire if it will persuade his WW to stay with him. No, this is not effective with a wayward.

I get how the LBS wants to go into marriage repair mode and “win” back the spouse who no longer loves or even feels attracted to them....but it doesn’t work. Even if the LBS does a 180 on all their old bad habits and becomes a terrific version of their former self…….it doesn’t win back the wayward wife. I’m not against improving yourself, but the WW is not interested as long as she is in a state of limerance. It is not the time to try to impress her with improvements as her H, b/c there has been a firing and another man is filling that position (at least, emotionally). If the LBH will give the WW serious personal space, emotionally and physically, and take the time to develop bigger b@lls (him, not his WW), and lets her face some consequences that come from her bad decisions/choices………..then he’ll have an opportunity to show her what a great catch she put on the open market for all the single females out there. I can talk more about this later.

Well, some people may read today's post and think I am trying to get you divorced. I promise that's not the case.

[LovingIt]

We have some "business" stuff to discuss, but if she wants to talk about how she's feeling, do I continue listen / validate / ask questions, or don't even engage in the feeling conversations?

Now let me ask..........who really wants to talks, you or WW.

Honestly, since WW moved out... there were maybe 2 moments where I felt a strong urge to initiate contact, but I held strong and just keep re-reading about NC.

The "business" stuff that we have to talk about is regarding a rental property with a tenant moving out end of the month. We had at one point discussed that as an option for her to move into instead, so we needed to clarify that before I list it again for rent. And season tickets that we share - which is turned into a F'ing custody discussion each time :P

She has texted me here and there a few times about nothing, which I have ignored. No phone calls.

The 2 times that we actually met up to talk about us, she initiated the meeting. First time, not knowing how the conversation would go, I proposed coffee shop thinking I would need to walk out. She was not comfortable discussing this in public, so we ended up doing it at home. It's been polite, no accusations, name calling or anything. She mostly just tells me how she is feeling, and I acknowledge and validate. I do politely remind her that there is still an AP situation at her work. Aside from that, I probably do chit chat a bit too much though, kind of letting her know what I have been up to in terms of GAL.

I actually get some anxiety prior to meeting and don't enjoy it, but I figure I do have to temp check her too. I mentally prepare myself for the conversation to go either way... D or R, and play out the discussions in my head so I don't get too surprised. I actually have the dissolution forms printed in my backpack.

[SteveLW]

Pure gold from Sandi. My only small point to make is that for me validating wasn't to agree or condone what she was saying or doing as much as to defuse the interaction. To keep it from becoming a tit for tat. Those rarely ever yield results with a WW. But listen to Sandi and becareful not to overdo it. The WW fog is such that they can take your passivity as you "allowing" them to do what it is they are doing. I believe that is why Sandi advocates applying more of a tough love mindset with a WW.

Lovingit, typically temp taking is not a positive thing. Why do you feel you need to temp check her?

[LovingIt]

Ummm... WW wants to grab something from the home today, and was asking about my schedule.

I'm thinking about just replying "what time? thanks for checking", and not be home myself.

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Lovingit, typically temp taking is not a positive thing. Why do you feel you need to temp check her?

Maybe I misused the phrase "temp check", but I assume we have to maintain some communication occasionally to see where we stand or if anything has changed? I guess I'm temp checking only when she reaches out to talk about us, so I'm curious to hear what she has to say or if she's still lying / confused in her affair fog. Other than that, I'm not initiating any temp checks.