Another case of WW

[LovingIt]

It's OK to respond if she reaches out, but try to stick to business. No chatty stuff. Try not to initiate unless it's something urgent. If she's doing a lot of "hey how are you" and you're not replying and she asks why, just tell her you need time and space to think about things.

Well, I think she reached out to talk about business and likely her current emotions. At least that was the case last time. We handled most of the beginning of month "business" stuff over text, so looking at the calendar, there's not a lot of urgency, unless we wanted to discuss "business" long term in limbo. I guess I will just listen and validate on the emotional part.

Some people say ignore everything 30+ days then reach out / indefinitely until they clearly state they want to R? Not that I'm expecting her to R right now, but I doubt that will be communicated over text or e-mail?

I've never heard that, I'm assuming you read that somewhere else. 30 days isn't long enough for a WAS to consider reconciling. More like 10 times that. Or more. This requires abundant patience!

Yeah, the 30+ day stuff is mostly if you Google / YouTube "No Contact Rule", but those seem to be for people who broke up dating. Probably a lot less baggage to work thru than a marriage

[LovingIt]

F*ck... got roped into MR conversation, with some chit chat. Told her about the GAL that I've been doing. She perceived it as that I've moved on.

WW mentioned that she's had a lot more perspective since the separation, and gained appreciation for the day to day "mundane" interactions that she took for granted. WW then inquired about moving back in, and working on the MR / R... apparently I made a face, and knee jerked to the idea of it. I clarified that we should take it slow, go thru some recovery steps before we fall back into old patters / chaos, and that we can't really work on anything until there's no AP. She agreed and that just wanted to know that the door was not closed.

Not sure if I handled it the best... definitely did not pursue. Just kept it cordial, and served as light house. Maybe she just wanted validation that I'm still available as plan B.

Definitely still not believing everything she says, and 50% of her actions.

[LH19]

L,

Yeah you jumped to quickly and most likely a temp check to see if you're still plan b. Your response should have been that you would need to think about it.

Laying out the map for reconciliation like you did IMO was definitely pursuit.

[LovingIt]

Well... I will consider that lesson learned.

Doesn’t matter much anyways. I won’t be reaching out to follow up. Still detecting inconsistencies in her stories, so have concerns about her motive. Maybe to cake eat.

Will continue to GAL and detach otherwise.

[LovingIt]

I should clarify that when I "knee jerked" to her proposing moving back in, it was in a negative way to the idea of her moving back in. I said I don't think we are ready, and that without more clarification and thought, we could easily fall back into the same patterns as before, and I'm not okay with that chaos.

What should I do if WW brings up moving back in and working on MR again? Do we then discuss conditions and boundaries? I just don't another relapse. I do detect inconsistencies in her statements and she still works with AP. I honestly think that she's still in her fog, and just trying to alleviate the pain of losing her stable connection at home, but once back home, she might then focus on her desire for the affair again.

Is NC more or less effective while she is in the home vs living outside the home?

How does one go from NC to R? If we do get to that point, do we work on it while living separately to start?

[LH19]

L,

I can’t stress it enough that you can’t work on relationship while she’s having an affair.

For her to come home I would suggest your boundaries be for her to send him a no contact letter and give you full transparency including phone and email accounts.

[AnotherStander]

F*ck... got roped into MR conversation, with some chit chat. Told her about the GAL that I've been doing. She perceived it as that I've moved on.

The DB rule is not to "initiate" R talks, but sometimes the WAS will initiate one and if they do it's OK to talk about it. But try to focus on listening and validating.

WW mentioned that she's had a lot more perspective since the separation, and gained appreciation for the day to day "mundane" interactions that she took for granted.

Good, she's learning to miss you.

WW then inquired about moving back in, and working on the MR / R... apparently I made a face, and knee jerked to the idea of it. I clarified that we should take it slow, go thru some recovery steps before we fall back into old patters / chaos, and that we can't really work on anything until there's no AP. She agreed and that just wanted to know that the door was not closed.

Great, you handled that quite well! You didn't just throw the door open. You stated that work would need to be done and that AP needs to be out of the picture. Perfect.

Maybe she just wanted validation that I'm still available as plan B.

More than likely that's what it was- a temperature check. If she brings it up again then make it clear that the A must be over before you will even CONSIDER talking about it. No use in having big long "what if" conversations.

Definitely still not believing everything she says, and 50% of her actions.

Good. Your DB'ing is showing results so take that as a signal to keep doing what you've been doing!

[sandi2]

Hi Loving it, I just caught up with your thread and it sounds like there are certainly unresolved issues in the MR.

The advice you will receive may not be what you want to do or agree with, and in fact, you will probably wonder if we are trying to coach you into a divorce or save your M. I understand you are anxious to reconcile the MR, but I hope you won't skim over things you feel doesn't apply to you getting your W back. Stick with us, and keep posting.

BTW, I want to caution you not to repeat things to your WW that you pick up on the board, unless it something we are helping you word in a conversation. You may read a post that has an impressive statement and you may be tempted to try it out on WW........but it won't influence her. I've seen so many LBH's try it, and always sounds nutty and out of place.

Attended a couple more MC sessions, but between contact with AP and episode of not coming home, the therapist politely mentioned that she typically does not do counseling with couples when there is AP involved still. The therapist even suggested that one of us move out to get separation if she continues to do this and I was not okay with it. We did agree that it's not okay for her to disrespect me, and expect me to respect her coming home.

Have you considered what she would have to do in order for you to physically separate from her? I think your WW finally moved out of the house, but I'm just curious why you disagreed with the counselor's suggestion.

I know someone else has already commented on the drinking, but it appears to cause unwise decisions/behavior in your W. If she is an alcoholic, and if she decided to address the problem by turning to professional help........how would you feel about it? Would it interfere with you drinking or your social activities?

You mentioned your anger. What is the root cause of this anger? Did you ever discuss it with the counselor?

She mentioned to me that she can’t continue to be pulled in 2 different directions every day, and she needed some space to figure out what she wants. She came back Sunday to pack some stuff, come to find out she got a short-term rental over the weekend and moved out. I don't know if it was triggered by the talk with the therapist, or she just wanted to be with the AP, or both - I assumed the worst.

I read one author's description about the WW, OM, & LBH as a ping-pong game. The H and OM are paddles on opposite ends of the table, and the WW is ball. She feels confused, can't make up her mind, doesn't want to give up OM but doesn't want to commit to saving the M, and runs back & forth from M to affair. This can go on for a very long time. The only way to end this ping-pong game, is for one player to stop playing the game.

Most things I tell LBH's are from the viewpoint of the WW. With that said, my advice to you is to drop your W. Stop playing the ping-pong game.

You cannot manage your WW, but you can manage yourself. Don't try to fix her. Fix yourself, improve, or reinvent......whatever it takes to be the man other guys respect and women would be a fool to leave. Notice I didn't say work on being a H. Before you can even think about being the H, you have to fix the man. Do you know what I mean? You work on healing from past hurts (apart from your W and the current sitch). You get informed in how to respect yourself, and how to command respect from others. You become that man you've always wanted to be. You get physically, mentally, and emotionally fit. In order to do these things, it usually requires reading a lot of self-help books; seriously setting goals for yourself (not your W); creating an active social life (or new activities, hobbies, experiences, etc.) that has no connection to your W or her relatives; hitting the gym or getting some other form of exercise; and if necessary, attend therapy. These are just a few things you can do to come through this period as a stronger, more attractive, confident man.

For years, I had anger issues (yelling, throwing / breaking stuff, name calling), did not speak her love language and neglected her emotional needs (even though we actually spent a lot of time doing activities together), and dismissed her when she asked / nagged for help out around the house (often escalated into bad arguments). I understand that I am not responsible for her actions, but I understand how it contributed or helped led us down that path. I now am aware and doing a 180 to better myself for any future relationship whether it’s for this MR or other.

So, you no longer have the anger issues?

Do you know what your W's love language really is? What are her emotional needs?
Why would you dismiss her whenever she asked for help?

Is W serial? Or just one long case of WW that was never exposed and healed, with necessary changes in the MR. Seems like with no kids, and both working and able to support ourselves, it seems obvious to just D and run for the hills. Everyone seems to say don’t make these life decisions while I’m emotional.

Until she makes steps in prioritizes her issues, I think she's at risk to cheat. I feel her drinking drives the vehicle, so to speak. Until she seriously takes action to stop drinking for good, I doubt she's going to end the cheating. I don't want to sound preachy, but have you taken her drinking seriously? Would you stop drinking, if you believed it would save your M? I see this a little like an insulin-dependent diabetic in denial. Until they accept the fact they can never go on a sugar binge without facing critical outcome.......they are going to be at risk. It does not matter how much they enjoy sweets.

I'll end this post here, and hopefully, I'll get time tonight to respond to a few more things.

[LovingIt]

Attended a couple more MC sessions, but between contact with AP and episode of not coming home, the therapist politely mentioned that she typically does not do counseling with couples when there is AP involved still. The therapist even suggested that one of us move out to get separation if she continues to do this and I was not okay with it I was not okay with her behavior. We did agree that it's not okay for her to disrespect me, and expect me to respect her coming home.

Have you considered what she would have to do in order for you to physically separate from her? I think your WW finally moved out of the house, but I'm just curious why you disagreed with the counselor's suggestion.

(corrected a sentence to read more clearly)

Yes, WW moved out 4 weeks ago with a couple bags of clothes 4 weeks ago by her choice. Time flies... she still have a lot of stuff at home.

Initially I was hesitant / scared with one of us moving out just because I felt like it would enable the A further, and we might just fall apart faster with less interaction. Also, I was not confident that MC specialized in infidelity or is pro-marriage. Fortunately, I stumbled into DB website the night she moved out, while I was trying figure out what the F to do. In retrospect, the time and space was much better than the chaos we were stuck in daily.

I know someone else has already commented on the drinking, but it appears to cause unwise decisions/behavior in your W. If she is an alcoholic, and if she decided to address the problem by turning to professional help........how would you feel about it? Would it interfere with you drinking or your social activities?

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I don't want to sound preachy, but have you taken her drinking seriously? Would you stop drinking, if you believed it would save your M?

We have talked about it before, but never got professional help. Similar to why we didn't seek professional help in MR until it's way too late.

I have always told WW that our drinking causes problem, and we are both responsible since we enable each other and don't hold each other accountable. If she decided to work on the issue, of course I would be supportive and not drink also. Socially, it will be really hard, as it probably is for most people who drink.

You mentioned your anger. What is the root cause of this anger? Did you ever discuss it with the counselor?

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For years, I had anger issues (yelling, throwing / breaking stuff, name calling) ...

So, you no longer have the anger issues?

Sounds cliche, but the root cause of my anger management stems from growing up with parents (since divorced) having similarly bad arguments - except they both escalated it. I have always thought that's just how people behaved when they were angry... if I was angry and hurt, then the other person needed to feel it too, otherwise they don't know how much it bothered me. I own it... immaturity on my end.

I want to believe that I no longer have the anger issues, only time can tell... I now realize the severe damage it can inflict on MR, and that it is emotional abuse. Expensive lesson learned. Been good in past few months since BD and its episodes, but not sure if my initial behavior change is just following the script of a LBS reacting to the potential loss.

Been reading / learning on how to communicate my emotions more effectively... feel like a doormat sometimes, whereas displaying anger feels less of a doormat :P

She mentioned to me that she can’t continue to be pulled in 2 different directions every day, and she needed some space to figure out what she wants. She came back Sunday to pack some stuff, come to find out she got a short-term rental over the weekend and moved out. I don't know if it was triggered by the talk with the therapist, or she just wanted to be with the AP, or both - I assumed the worst.

I read one author's description about the WW, OM, & LBH as a ping-pong game. The H and OM are paddles on opposite ends of the table, and the WW is ball. She feels confused, can't make up her mind, doesn't want to give up OM but doesn't want to commit to saving the M, and runs back & forth from M to affair. This can go on for a very long time. The only way to end this ping-pong game, is for one player to stop playing the game.

Most things I tell LBH's are from the viewpoint of the WW. With that said, my advice to you is to drop your W. Stop playing the ping-pong game.

I have dropped the rope on my end since she moved out. Trying to detach, GAL, NC, self improve.

I only respond texts that are "business" related, and met up a couple times to catch up and talk about us and listen to how she is feeling.

... did not speak her love language and neglected her emotional needs (even though we actually spent a lot of time doing activities together), and dismissed her when she asked / nagged for help out around the house (often escalated into bad arguments) ...

Do you know what your W's love language really is? What are her emotional needs?

She mentioned that of the 5 love languages, her love language are "physical touch" and "words of affirmation".

Her emotional needs (depending on what list you go by) that she brought up post BD were Affection, Sexual Fulfillment, Intimate Conversation. It changed quite a bit when we discussed them, so I'm not sure if she was rewriting history to justify her A. The 3 emotional needs are closely related and probably stems from Affection, so hard to pin point, and it aligns with the love languages.

Honestly, I feel like all of the love languages and emotional needs are important to WW. I just think that the ones that she mentioned are the ones that I didn't provide very well, and that's what she is getting from the AP.

I agree that it needs to be improved on my end, most women would want them in a relationship...

As a side note, My MC/IC says I'm like a robot, and I am too logical and pretty guarded - do not display enough emotions / vulnerability.

... and dismissed her when she asked / nagged for help out around the house (often escalated into bad arguments) ...

Why would you dismiss her whenever she asked for help?

I guess we just got into a bad communication pattern when it comes to cleaning. She made me feel like I didn't do anything around the home because I didn't clean on her schedule or clean as much as her. She acknowledges that I'm very reliable and dependable otherwise, just not when it comes to cleaning. I know... seems petty to escalate, but I think it was built up resentment on both parties. I own my end of it.

[sandi2]

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Here's my question to you- do you even want to be married to a serial cheater? Are you holding onto the hope that maybe she will change and stop this behavior? And what if she doesn't?

This is the first time that I've been confronted with this situation, so I don't have a clear cut answer yet. I flip flop on my thoughts on this daily. Since I've done my share of mistakes, I'd like us to both learn from our mistakes and have an opportunity to see if it is salvageable. I feel like up to this point, we never really truly communicated the underlying issues as with all MR with built up resentment.

Having said that, it's hard to have a fair chance with AP/OM and fog in the picture right now. Or maybe really there is no such thing as fog, and I'm just not wanting to hear the message. I'm constantly reminding myself of that possibility too.

When you say that first sentence, it reminds me of the ping-pong game. Are you in competition with OM and the prize is your WW? If you answer honestly, you may say that is how you feel. We want you to have a different mindset in how you see yourself, your life, your WW, & possible reconciliation. I would dare guess you have mainly thought about her and her feelings......her actions......your chances with her......and what it will take to get this great prize back into your arms again. We see it here on the board all the time, but what really bothers me is when you say, "Since I've done my share of mistakes, I'd like us to both learn from our mistakes and have an opportunity to see if it is salvageable". You are facing a different situation when dealing with a WW. It's not as if she made a mistake, or that she is justified b/c you were a lousy H. There is a right way and a wrong way, and if she wanted out of the MR......it would have been more respectable for her to get a D, before having an affair. There are many layers to this situation. I wish it were that simple where the two of you could agree to put the past behind you and work on the MR. Reconciliation of the M is possible. Absolutely! However, you won't have a successful reconciliation if you try to skip over the necessary healing from the betrayal, deceit, infidelity, etc. No matter how willing you may be to forgive her and move forward in the MR.......it does not heal either of you. You each will be faced with issues to tackle and you can only work on your own. Therefore, I'm suggesting you don't jump back into living under the same roof, at this time. There is no way this woman has made the necessary changes...........and I'm guessing that neither of you have much idea of what is necessary in moving forward. You need a plan of action, or you'll get sucker-punched every time you turn around. Unfortunately, there are no short cuts or magic formula to hurry this along. The best thing you can do to move things faster, is to learn as much as possible, and take what we say very seriously. You have to actually get serious about working on yourself before working on the MR.

IMHO, in order for you to have an effective plan of action, you need to know your own core values and know what you are willing to tolerate...... and what you won't take. In other words, what guides you through life? Where do you draw the line? When I read the above quote, I get the sense that you are not certain. I want to encourage you to take time to know yourself, first, before deciding to reconcile or divorce. Take this time to really think about your self respect, your belief system, your desires and personal goals in life. What type of man are you? Do you have high morals and/or religious standards by which you conduct life? Do you feel your integrity has been compromised......or could be compromised? Do you feel others respect you? Are you a leader or follower? Who called the shots at home? You don't have to give me any answers, but I hope you will focus on YOU and the things in life which are most important. Of course you feel the M is most important, and we will talk about all of that.......just please don't sweet this other work under the rug.

I think physical separation is often needed, in order to have clarity. Both the LBH and WW need the space/distance from one another. From what I have been able to tell, most WW's seem to be manipulative and will try to keep one foot in both worlds (marriage/affair). Even if divorce is on the table, in the back of her mind she sees you being a backup plan in her life. The WW sees the H being dumped, but she doesn't see him actually dumping her (and I'm sad to say my experience is to see most newcomers are scared to death their WW will see any action from the H that indicates he is done with her). For what it's worth, the WW doesn't want her position in your life to be replaced.
She doesn't want you, but she doesn't want anyone else having you. You'll see selfishness to the highest degree, b/c it is the motivation that drives a WW. In everything they do, they benefit emotionally, physically, financially, or else they aren't interested. Never forget this!

I really hope WW just wants to discuss how to move forward in any direction, and not playing games. I never thought of her as one to play games, but I guess if someone is to have an A, then they are clearly willing to play games...

She is already playing games by asking you to meet and talk. Most LBH's want to talk their way back into the MR, and it doesn't work when there's a third party. Yes, she will probably want to talk, but she wants to talk about......HER feelings, accomplishing nothing. Remember ping-pong, and you have to take yourself out of that dimension......or it goes on & on. Remove yourself from the drama. At the moment, you can't trust her. You can't believe her when she talks about going back home. She's throwing you bread crumbs. As long as some other guy is in her head, you will just be used for whatever benefits her. I think it takes a little time for most LBH's to actually see what I'm talking about. They have trouble believing their W would be so cold, calloused, manipulative and selfish. Well guess what? This is not the girl you married. She has changed. She may have to experience some really bad stuff before she decides to get help for her drinking problem, maybe childhood issues, etc. Even if she had none of these other problems, waywardness causes good women to act really, really horrible. But I want to make something very clear. Waywardness comes from free volition. It's not a mental illness, although some women may have a particular mental condition in addition.........but please don't look at her waywardness as if she couldn't it. She could!

I thought about this. I guess we both made so many mistakes in our relationship, and we finally hit rock bottom and finally now openly discussing our issues. I would like to have the opportunity to put forth our best selves, understanding that it may still not work out.

I hear you, but do hear what I've been saying? You want to discuss the issues with your WW, and even if it seems like you both feel a little better afterward, you will quickly discover the waywardness is still in charge. There will be a place & time for discussion about the M, but it's not now.

I like your second sentence of that quote. If you really mean you want the opportunity to put forth your best self.........then you will see your opportunity for developing your best self is NOW, while you are separated. See, I know you aren't buying all this self improvement stuff we are talking. I can tell when a newcomer is saying just enough to sound as if he's picking up the correct method/technique...........but he hasn't started applying any of that stuff. He wants a bullet point sheet with the how-to of getting his W back, and preferably, from the OM. There are things you need to heal, to develop, ect. Once she is back in the house, do you seriously believe the wonderful best side of you is going to come out and deal with all the cr@p fallout? No, it doesn't work that way. Oh, some may fake it for a little while, but when roots aren't long enough, something is going to crash. This is your opportunity to quietly work on yourself and put the MR on hold until she is willing to anything you want to reconcile. Yes, you heard me right.

Before I go, I want to address something else. You speak about your share of mistakes. Have you ever had an affair, or inappropriate behavior with anyone? I don't believe one spouse's actions justifies or equalizes infidelity in the other spouse. Most WW's want to pin the fault of her having an A on the betrayed H, however, at the end of the day we all are responsible for the sin we've done.

((hugs)) Continue to post and read. If you have questions about anything I have said, please ask me.