Another case of WW

[LovingIt]

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I would definitely draft up something and come here and seek advise.
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Well... I'm thinking...

Option-1: I could not confront and not mention anything, and just detach better and not care - but I was told that I'm not applying enough tough love with my WW.

Option-2: I could confront and say "I really don't want to talk to you or see you while you are in contact / living with OM"

Option-3: I could confront and say, "Since you are living with OM, please take all the rest of your stuff with you and give me back the home key." And move all her remaining stuff into the hallway. Might be tough, she is still paying her share on the home though.

Option-3a: I could afford the place, so I could tell her to stop paying on the shared expenses, but at that point, we might as well file for legal separation + assets.

I guess it depends on whether I'm going with the be detached and happy DB route... or go with the stronger tough love DB route for WW.

[LovingIt]

I know what LH would ask me... what result do I hope to accomplish with each option... :P

[Ready2Change]

I would definitely draft up something and come here and seek advise.

Communication is always confusion. To clarify: If I personally found out my lady was involved with OM, that is the action I would immediately take. Not a recommendation for you.

[sandi2]

I guess it depends on whether I'm going with the be detached and happy DB route... or go with the stronger tough love DB route for WW.

It's all the DB route.

I am just now seeing where you said your W is living with OM. Yet, you still resist that she is wayward? You had rather believe this has been caused by mental illness, rather than a negative mindset about her H?

Been struggling since the interaction several days ago... I think it's due to 2 things...

1. How poorly I handled the interaction... based on feedback from LH and Sandi.

2. How the sitch seems like it has not improved or even regressed from 2 weeks ago.

If the newcomer does something without running it by the board, then we try to point out how he should handle it. That's how you learn. It's not to make you feel worse about your sitch, okay? As for things not improving or regressing the past two weeks, I think it's been explained by others, so I won't repeat it.

There is something I sense in your posting. You are focused on the reconciliation with your W. This can cause some men to take a WW back too easily and too soon. By that, I mean the H is sooooo focused on just getting his W back, that he doesn't tell her that it's not going to be that simple, and he doesn't tell her what will be required in order to really reconcile. Those LBH's who just let the WW waltz back into the home and pick up where they left off....... set themselves up for more pain & suffering. The WW has to go through certain things, before she is really serious about reconciliation. Simply returning to the house is not real reconciliation. They may be under the same roof, but that's about it. The thing is........WW's don't want to do that emotional hard work, b/c it hurts like heck! So, she'll try to con her way back under her own terms.......which might mean separate bedrooms, no remorse, no commitment, no transparency, more secrets and hidden agendas, etc. If the LBH doesn't know what to expect, then she'll do a number on him like you wouldn't believe. We are here to try and help you be prepared and know what to do or not do. At least, maybe we can save you from going through mistakes former LBH's have made.

This won't be resolved as long as the OM is in her bed---or in her head. She can't jump from not loving you to loving OM to not loving OM to loving you again....all in two weeks times. Women aren't wired that way. Even if they broke up today and she came running back into your arms, she'd still have him in her head. A woman loves/desires one man at a time. Don't get me wrong here, she can make the decision to do the right thing at any point. She can choose to leave him and go home, and start the process of recovering from her waywardness and the affair addiction, etc............which is a tremendous emotional task for her. You will need to know how to lead in the M, and to support her during the reconciliation period. While you are separated is the time you can use to stock up on the information you'll need. I am barely skimming over things at the moment, so if I say something you don't understand, let me know.

[LovingIt]

I guess it depends on whether I'm going with the be detached and happy DB route... or go with the stronger tough love DB route for WW.

It's all the DB route.

I am just now seeing where you said your W is living with OM. Yet, you still resist that she is wayward? You had rather believe this has been caused by mental illness, rather than a negative mindset about her H?

No resistance, the title already stated that this is WW

I'm just curious how much tough love should I be applying based on the options I listed.

Is there even a point in confronting her living with OM if she is not disclosing it?

I guess it depends on whether I'm going with the be detached and happy DB route... or go with the stronger tough love DB route for WW.

It's all the DB route.

I am just now seeing where you said your W is living with OM. Yet, you still resist that she is wayward? You had rather believe this has been caused by mental illness, rather than a negative mindset about her H?

Been struggling since the interaction several days ago... I think it's due to 2 things...

1. How poorly I handled the interaction... based on feedback from LH and Sandi.

2. How the sitch seems like it has not improved or even regressed from 2 weeks ago.

If the newcomer does something without running it by the board, then we try to point out how he should handle it. That's how you learn. It's not to make you feel worse about your sitch, okay?
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I appreciate the feedback - keep it coming. Not trying to guilt trip the vets here for constructive feedback :P Just reflecting that I handled it poorly.

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There is something I sense in your posting. You are focused on the reconciliation with your W. This can cause some men to take a WW back too easily and too soon. By that, I mean the H is sooooo focused on just getting his W back, that he doesn't tell her that it's not going to be that simple, and he doesn't tell her what will be required in order to really reconcile.
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Maybe a bit... I go back and forth, but I think most LBS on here are like this? I think I have cognitive dissonance right now - logically, if I take a step back and look at everything that's happened, it's pretty f*cked up sh*t. I would not tell a friend to stay in this MR.

I'm holding ground on needing to see growth and change, self-reflection, no contact with AP/OM, therapy, etc... I'm just not seeing any progress from her, and the sitch seems to be getting worse since her initial anxiety from moving out / separation.

[sandi2]

Is there even a point in confronting her living with OM if she is not disclosing it?

Ask yourself what you wish to accomplish by confronting her. Is it b/c you want her to know that you are aware of her living with OM? If yes, then what's your next move?

If she says, "Yes, I am living with OM, so what?" Here's where I think some LBH's have the misconception that his WW will feel so ashamed that it will bring about some type of emotional response (lots of crying, apologies, begging for forgiveness, pleading to take her back, making promises, etc.). The LBH believes the act of confronting his WW will bust up her affair with OM. Sometimes, the LBH will get a response somewhat like he wanted, and sometimes the confrontation merely pushes the sitch to the next step/level........which in this case, would be divorce. So, it's not a matter of us telling you what is the point of confronting your W..........b/c you are the one who has to figure out why you confront and what you wish to accomplish. The answer may seem obvious to you, but let's think about it for a minute or so.

I hope you aren't grasping for some quick fix, b/c you still have this type thinking that she & you will make up and your lives will return to normal. I'm not against confrontation, if you have a plan of action to follow up the confrontation. What's the point of telling her that you know what's going on, if you just lay down and do nothing?

Some people believe that once a couple separates they can date or sleep around as if they were no longer legally bound. When the cheater leaves the faithful spouse in order to be with OM/OW.......or to live a different lifestyle without the betrayed spouse, then some LBS's are ready to drop the rope (physically, emotionally & legally). I'm not inviting people to a discussion about their personal beliefs, b/c this is about your life, your moral integrity, and how you will have a good life with or without this person who betrayed you. Some betrayed LBS's can create a life apart from their marriage and the cheating spouse, and "stand for their marriage" until the cheating spouse either pushes through with the divorce work or returns home. Therefore, I encourage you to have a sense of the direction you will take before you decide to actually confront her.

I'm holding ground on needing to see growth and change, self-reflection, no contact with AP/OM, therapy, etc... I'm just not seeing any progress from her, and the sitch seems to be getting worse since her initial anxiety from moving out / separation.

Okay, it's fine to hold to certain things you'll need to see in her. Let's talk about how these things you've listed usually come. First, let me say that she doesn't want to hear anything about your needs or requirements, b/c she is wrapped up with some other guy. Therefore, don't waste your breath by telling her the things she will have to do in order to reconcile. Especially during confrontation, don't use that time to talk about anything other than the purpose of your confrontation. Don't tell her these things you want to see in her, until she seeks you out and sincerely asks what would it take to reconcile.

Growth and change. What ways do you want her to change? I think anyone is capable of growth and positive change, if they want it bad enough, but it doesn't come cheap for wayward wives. Those who are rebellious, filled with stubborn pride, clings to old resentments, unforgiveness, lack of respect, and numerous negative attitudes and/or mental issues...............,.growth & positive change isn't as easy as some people might think. In the first place, it's going to take humility, if the positive change is for real. She won't even feel remorse, if there is no humility. The WW experiences a particular loss of something precious to her, or accumulation of loss due to her waywardness. For some WW changes begin fairly quickly, but for others who have such hardened hearts, it can take much longer.

Self-reflection is a good one. Why do you need to see this in your W?

NC with OM is absolutely #1 priority in order to reconcile successfully. This includes her agreement and cooperation in a transparency plan, designed by you (not her). If OM is a co-worker, then one of them must relocate. She cannot beat the strong withdrawals that follow ending an affair, if she continues to work with the affair partner. Even if she doesn't see him at work every day, she can never see his face or hear his voice or read his messages again.

All of the the things you've listed are extremely important, and they will be ongoing work for her, for the most part. I want to suggest a few things that you might consider needing from her. 1) End all contact with OM; 2) Agreement to engage in transparency plan; 3) Commitment to doing whatever is necessary to save the MR; 4) Humble apology;
7) Therapy. 8) No separate bedrooms.

I may be leaving out something, but I think those a the initial ones to consider.

[LovingIt]

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Ask yourself what you wish to accomplish by confronting her. Is it b/c you want her to know that you are aware of her living with OM? If yes, then what's your next move?

If she says, "Yes, I am living with OM, so what?" Here's where I think some LBH's have the misconception that his WW will feel so ashamed that it will bring about some type of emotional response (lots of crying, apologies, begging for forgiveness, pleading to take her back, making promises, etc.). The LBH believes the act of confronting his WW will bust up her affair with OM. Sometimes, the LBH will get a response somewhat like he wanted, and sometimes the confrontation merely pushes the sitch to the next step/level........which in this case, would be divorce. So, it's not a matter of us telling you what is the point of confronting your W..........b/c you are the one who has to figure out why you confront and what you wish to accomplish. The answer may seem obvious to you, but let's think about it for a minute or so.
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Yes, that's what LH would ask me too... what am I trying to accomplish with my actions.

I guess nothing except to get it off my chest and prove that I'm not an idiot? Maybe it's the old me wanting to confront a situation and blow it up. Yes, it would escalate to the next level which would be D.

I'm learning more about emotional control and thinking a few steps ahead, which is why I have not confronted yet.

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I'm holding ground on needing to see growth and change, self-reflection, no contact with AP/OM, therapy, etc... I'm just not seeing any progress from her, and the sitch seems to be getting worse since her initial anxiety from moving out / separation.

Okay, it's fine to hold to certain things you'll need to see in her. Let's talk about how these things you've listed usually come. First, let me say that she doesn't want to hear anything about your needs or requirements, b/c she is wrapped up with some other guy. Therefore, don't waste your breath by telling her the things she will have to do in order to reconcile. Especially during confrontation, don't use that time to talk about anything other than the purpose of your confrontation. Don't tell her these things you want to see in her, until she seeks you out and sincerely asks what would it take to reconcile.

Growth and change. What ways do you want her to change? I think anyone is capable of growth and positive change, if they want it bad enough, but it doesn't come cheap for wayward wives. Those who are rebellious, filled with stubborn pride, clings to old resentments, unforgiveness, lack of respect, and numerous negative attitudes and/or mental issues...............,.growth & positive change isn't as easy as some people might think. In the first place, it's going to take humility, if the positive change is for real. She won't even feel remorse, if there is no humility. The WW experiences a particular loss of something precious to her, or accumulation of loss due to her waywardness. For some WW changes begin fairly quickly, but for others who have such hardened hearts, it can take much longer.

Self-reflection is a good one. Why do you need to see this in your W?
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I need her to have done deep self-reflection because I feel like she needs to know why the EA's happened. Sure, I was not perfect and didn't meet all of her needs but that doesn't cause or justify the EA's. I feel like without her having a good understanding of herself then there's a high risk of it relapsing again in the future with someone else.

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I would like to know what picture comes to your mind whenever you read those two words, "tough love". When you ask me how you should treat her, I wonder if you see tough love as being mean, cold, angry, sullen, etc. It's none of those negative actions.

Can you see yourself implementing the 37 rules without feeling you have compromised your dignity, integrity, moral/spiritual beliefs? I've read thousands of posts that say these rules are so hard. The rules aren't hard, but due to the emotional feelings of the LBS, it becomes tough to stick by them. It's tough to follow directions or instructions when our feelings are trying to dictate our actions. It's tough to do something that seems so counter-intuitive. Do you feel these rules are unrealistic or don't apply to your situation? What about the page I sent you on DB detaching? (I think it was you) Have you been able to follow those guidelines? Some LBS's don't even try, b/c it is a measure of tough love. But I encourage you to start with the 37 rules, and the other guidelines (detaching, boundaries, etc.) Cadet posted. I don't recall any of them suggesting that the LBS mistreat the other spouse. It may not be to their particular liking.......but that's why we call it tough love.
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Borrowed above quote from another thread, since I had some questions / thoughts on it...

Hmmm... based on the vet feedback on my sitch about not going to dinner with her whenever we meet to discuss business stuff, etc... I've been interpreting tough love as mean / cold, or at least that's how I come off. I'll have to adjust my actions accordingly. Been trying to find the right balance of in-person interaction. Definitely been doing the 37 rules, in fact, they helped me restore / preserve my dignity and self-respect that was initial lost after BD.

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Lack of respect kills attraction/desire in the wife, and that's why I bring it up so much. Did she show you respect in front of the children, her family, and friends.........or did she lose her temper and talk down to you? Did she embarrass you, make you the butt of jokes, make you feel put down, or treat you some other way that showed she didn't respect you as a man? Is she the type who won't bury the hatchet, forgive, and chose to remain bitter? If you say there was no evidence of disrespect for you.........and there is no sign of rebellion, then we can move on to something else. If you aren't sure if you've been disrespected in front of your kids, or others...........let me know. Seriously, some guys just don't know, b/c it's all they've ever seen in marriages.
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Borrowed above quote from another thread, since I had some questions / thoughts on it...

WW actually speaks very highly of me around co-workers, friends, and family. We do make fun of / self deprecate each other quite a bit around friends, and I thought we were both confident and comfortable enough to take it. I think some of our friends thought that our jokes crossed the line a bit - as not a lot of women would be sensitive to stuff we joke about each other.

Her complaints were that I didn't admire / desire her romantically / physically. Even though we spent a lot of time together enjoying shared hobbies on weekdays and weekends, but she didn't get verbal or physical affirmation from me. I have to agree and admit... it's hard to desire someone after 16 years. She looks good and is in good shape, but hard to lust after someone when you fart around each other all day :P To be honest, I didn't get with her primarily for her looks - I don't think she's ugly, but I married someone because I thought she was smart and worked hard, and we had a lot of common interests.

[LovingIt]

Interesting weekend / night... ran into WW at a club (we both like the same music and DJ) with OM. I was on my way to the bathroom, and saw her and said "hey". The rest of the night she hid and ran like a cockroach. I guess it's better than her flaunting it. I think they might have left early too. Oh well, not so bad when you expected the chance of this happening. I'm not going to stop what I enjoy.

Next week will be interesting Again, another data point / hot stove to help me move on.

[may22]

Hi LovingIt,

Read through your sitch and just wanted to say hey... hope you're hanging in there. Feels like the advice being given to LBHs is way more hardcore than LBWs... maybe has to do with how WWs behave compared to WHs.

maybe your WW *is* a narcissist? (I responded to your post on Kristin's thread.) To me, that is a pretty important question, because if she does have narcissistic personality disorder (even if covert), she may not be someone you really want to be married to in the long run.

You might think through your R BEFORE the BD(s)-- you guys have been together for a long time, so it seems a little weird that she'd just be exhibiting narcissistic tendencies now. With my friend's XH, the patterns were there right from the beginning, she just made excuses for him (to herself as well as to her friends) until he decided to leave her for an AP. However, sounds like when WSs get into the "affair fog" they totally regress and make decisions like children rather than adults, so sort of like sociopaths anyway I also think that cognitive dissonance plays a significant role.

For me, it has been helpful to try to put myself in my H's shoes and understand what the drivers are for him-- not to excuse his behavior, I'm angry about his choices-- but I do get why it would be so so tempting when you have this 33 year old girl who needs his career advice and support through a family tragedy and thinks he's just so f**ing great-- compared to me, who would barely have sex with him, blamed him for it (he was kind of an a-hole too), blah blah blah-- plus all the regular unsexy and un-fun parts of long-term marriage.

We are still living together, he's back in the MB but doesn't know if he wants to try to R, and we have two kids-- so I do need to focus somewhat on being empathetic towards him. I could totally go the other way and focus on what an a-hole he is -- and sometimes I do-- which definitely makes the detaching part easier. I think if she lived here and they were actually together IRL my head would explode... so I have enormous respect for you and others who are dealing with these awful situations right in your face and are still able to be calm and detached (just saying "hey" at the club was pretty bad a**. Nice job.).

In your sitch, it might be easier to detach if you did focus on her narcissistic tendencies... in the end, it doesn't really matter what is going on in her head or why she's behaving in a certain way. She is making her choices and spending a lot of time trying to understand why she's acting as she is seems unproductive, given the history of As and the fact she's possibly living with the OM. If I understand this all correctly (and I'm a newbie for sure) being able to truly detach is one of the main goals, and the NC rules are basically there to help you fake it till you make it. So maybe if it helps you to focus on her disrespect/lies/etc., then go for it? There isn't any harm in you thinking of her as a narcissist, at least for now. She is definitely acting like one.

Not sure if any of this was helpful, but hang in there. Thinking of you!

[LovingIt]

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so I have enormous respect for you and others who are dealing with these awful situations right in your face and are still able to be calm and detached (just saying "hey" at the club was pretty bad a**. Nice job.).
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Giving me too much credit here... I didn't even have time to think or panic, and it was just my typical reaction to say "hey" to someone I recognize. Oh man... her facial expression was priceless though.

After going to the bathroom, I was emotionally shaken up for like 5 min, but I was able to calm myself to not to let it ruin my plans. Plus what did this incident change in terms of what I already know or think - nothing.

I was discussing with my friend today the incident, and he said that an Alpha would have punched OM to let him know there's consequences to sleeping with other people wives, and that I was displaying Beta tendencies. Yeah, those thoughts cross my mind, but if I punched OM, wouldn't I also do the same to WW for being a willing participant? I can't literally chase away every other guy, if WW wants out. Plus I don't want to get sued or goto jail for people that aren't worth it.

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Not sure if any of this was helpful, but hang in there. Thinking of you!
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Thanks! It helps to just feel the support and hear another perspective.

I'm not that strong to hang on much longer, especially when I'm detaching and gaining more self respect / confidence back everyday, and I start to question whether I can even respect someone like that again. There would have to be a lot of change to account for all the EAs. Even then, who am I going back to and am I willing to risk the chance of relapse and me cycling thru that suffering again?

However, as much as I'm able to detach to the outcome, this limbo is still consuming too much of my attention. So started researching mediators and outlining my finance breakdown proposal. It's pretty depressing listing out your home, assets, and furniture that you purchased together for your life to now think about D.

We'll see... I'm definitely in my anger phase of the grieving process. Whereas before I was definitely in denial then negotiation. Looking forward to acceptance, or maybe I will yo yo between negotiation and anger.