SOS Sandi2

[Ready2Change]

Ready, what’s the thought process behind your prescribed “cage door” approach?

Don't try to control other people. Set your own boundaries to protect yourself. If they are crossed, you take action to protect yourself. Work on being attractive. Attract people into your life. RobX was the wise "set them free" DBer.

[AnotherStander]

What Steve and R2C said. A common complaint of WAS's is that they feel "caged in" or trapped. The idea is for you to open the cage door. You don't push them out, you don't pull them in, you just open the door and let them choose. How do you do that? If she comes to you and says she wants a D you say "this is not what I want but I understand that you feel you need this and I will not stand in your way, I will support your decision whatever it is." That's one way of opening the door. She's free to stay, she's free to go. You're not doing anything to influence her choice, you're just getting out of the way and letting her choose. If she no longer sees the cage/ home/ marriage as a prison then she won't feel pressured into immediate action.

[WMLC]

AS, we have had that very discussion. Minimal discussion regarding finances etc since that meeting, which happened at MC. On a related note, I had an individual counseling session with our same MC this afternoon. It is her opinion that W is dealing with childhood trauma and that W still loves me. She also told me that the my W was shocked when I told her at that last session, "You sound like you need to move on. I'm letting you go." MC said she wishes she could have taken a picture of expression on W's face when I said that and that she wouldn't throw dirt on on the M yet. Just one more perspective, I suppose.

[sandi2]

Hello WMLC. I've just completed reading your thread. I will be able to post more tomorrow, but for now just let me say that I don't think you should initiate D with the intent of causing her a sense of loss. IMHO, there are some other things you can do.

Just wanted to let you know I've seen your shout out. Talk tomorrow.

[sandi2]

Okay, so to just jump in here, I want you to know that symptoms we see in a WAW/WW/MLCW can appear very similar. With that said, I'm going back to your first post to address some things as we go.

About 3 months ago, I noticed my wife stomping around, seemingly angry at everyone and everything. (About 3 months prior to this, she joined the gym, made new friends etc.)

Does she talk about her new friends? Like, are they younger, single, etc. Are there any guy friends in this group? Women influence women. If your W has felt less than satisfied about her MR, then another woman who has a very happy MR could be a source of inspiration for your W. On the other hand, if your W is associating herself with young, vibrate, carefree, singles who talk about their exciting lives (and it's b/c they are free & single)........she may find herself wishing she was free and see what's out there, yada, yada, yada. Here's the thing. In the past, she may have conducted herself like a mature minded woman, but currently, she is emotionally vulnerable. She's unhappy and she feels trapped in a sexually starved MR. I think the reason she feels "confused" is b/c she's experiencing thoughts or emotions that contradicts her sense of moral integrity. She may even make the statement that she doesn't know who she is anymore.

If you have read my thread here https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=57285&Number=2545554#Post2545554 you know how it all started with unresolved issues that turns to resentment about her H. Eventually, that resentment turns to disrespect. Disrespect leads to lack of attraction. A wife has to respect her H in order to feel desire for him. That is the way she is wired! Waywardness is all about a lack of respect. She has other negative characteristics but I won't get off into all of that right now.

She started individual counseling a week later and has continued since. Her counselor recommended a trial separation, which I agreed to. It is tough because she runs a business out of the house, but she shows up in the morning before kids get up and stays throughout the day while I'm at work.

Is her work mostly on the computer, or does she have some type or shop at the home? If it is mostly computer related, could she work somewhere else, instead of the marital home? I'll get back on this, once I see your answer.

BTW, I want you to understand that whatever you decide to do, it is not about punishing her.

Since our initial R talk, I have made several changes. Working out regularly, lost 22 lbs., more present with family interactions, etc. I actually feel awakened, for lack of a better term. She says the changes are only temporary and won't last etc. I know that's not true, but I don't get defensive or argue. I would very much like to save this marriage, and we have started marriage counseling. The counselor suggested we keep this semi separation and that she come to the house for family dinners on Sundays, which she agreed to do.

Making changes in yourself is great, but let me explain how she looks at it. Everything is about her, and nothing is about you.....in her opinion. You probably contributed to the breakdown of the M, but you could become an amazing person and it may not change her current feelings. If she isn't wayward, I might agree with the advice from the counselor, but if your W is wayward.......she is going to use you to play happy family, or attend social events as a couple, or sit with her at ballgames b/c she doesn't want to sit alone, etc. Nobody is more selfish, nor has a sense of entitlement like the WW. Sadly, there are IC/MC who are not pro-marriage, and apparently, some have no clue about the mindset of a WW.

WW's seem to be quite talented in making the LBH feel that he has to prove his changes or show his love.........just like your W said your changes are temporary. Look, a WW doesn't care how much her H works to improve himself. It doesn't affect her feelings for him. She may get angry that he waited till now to make changes, but it's not going to change her heart problems. The two of you are currently on separate paths and it will probably get worse before it gets better, but that doesn't mean it's your fault. Make sense?

While I haven't pleaded or begged, I have acknowledged my shortcomings in the marriage and apologized to her for how she feels.

Is she giving you specific shortcomings.......or, are you just apologizing without knowing the crime? I just want to caution you about taking ownership of her feelings. I think a lot of men give an overall apology, hoping it will make the WW feel better and they can get that (whatever "that" is) behind them. Okay, so you apologized. No need to apologize again for the same offense.

I've got to bring this post to an end. My suggestions at this point is the following:

Drop the MC. If she decides to continue IC, that's up to her. After reconciliation, you can attend MC.
See a lawyer to know where you stand legally, how to protect yourself financially, get equal time with your kids, etc. I want to make this clear. I can't stress enough how important it is to protect yourself. Make it your priority.

I would drop the Sunday dinners, and playing happy family. WW's want their freedom, but they also want to hold on to family traditions, especially during the holidays.

Don't initiate contacts with her.

I also think it's likely there is an OM the picture, which, given her feelings when she finally let them out, would not be a surprise. I know the odds are strongly against me, but I can actually see a vibrant marriage rebirth if we can get through this.My wife checks almost every box on every MLC symptoms list you can find.

If you knew for certain there was OM in the picture, would you do something different?

She may be in MLC. I hope you will continue posting, and maybe we can tell more about it.

[WMLC]

Does she talk about her new friends? Like, are they younger, single, etc. Are there any guy friends in this group? Women influence women. If your W has felt less than satisfied about her MR, then another woman who has a very happy MR could be a source of inspiration for your W. On the other hand, if your W is associating herself with young, vibrate, carefree, singles who talk about their exciting lives (and it's b/c they are free & single)........she may find herself wishing she was free and see what's out there, yada, yada, yada. Here's the thing. In the past, she may have conducted herself like a mature minded woman, but currently, she is emotionally vulnerable. She's unhappy and she feels trapped in a sexually starved MR. I think the reason she feels "confused" is b/c she's experiencing thoughts or emotions that contradicts her sense of moral integrity. She may even make the statement that she doesn't know who she is anymore.

Her "new" gym friends are mainly female. Some young and unhitched, some married. A number of her older friends (and her siblings) are divorced, or in the process of getting divorced.


Is her work mostly on the computer, or does she have some type or shop at the home? If it is mostly computer related, could she work somewhere else, instead of the marital home? I'll get back on this, once I see your answer.

She runs a daycare/learning center out of the house. It is licensed specifically for this setup, very difficult to move unfortunately.


Making changes in yourself is great, but let me explain how she looks at it. Everything is about her, and nothing is about you.....in her opinion. You probably contributed to the breakdown of the M, but you could become an amazing person and it may not change her current feelings. If she isn't wayward, I might agree with the advice from the counselor, but if your W is wayward.......she is going to use you to play happy family, or attend social events as a couple, or sit with her at ballgames b/c she doesn't want to sit alone, etc. Nobody is more selfish, nor has a sense of entitlement like the WW. Sadly, there are IC/MC who are not pro-marriage, and apparently, some have no clue about the mindset of a WW.

She does not ever go out as a family and really has been less than interested in S11, but for the bare minimum. She is adopted and our MC believes there issues stemming from locating her birth mother and being rejected by her (again) when she reached out to make contact. I am an issue, for sure, but this is really about her issues/depression.


WW's seem to be quite talented in making the LBH feel that he has to prove his changes or show his love.........just like your W said your changes are temporary. Look, a WW doesn't care how much her H works to improve himself. It doesn't affect her feelings for him. She may get angry that he waited till now to make changes, but it's not going to change her heart problems. The two of you are currently on separate paths and it will probably get worse before it gets better, but that doesn't mean it's your fault. Make sense?

Makes perfect sense. The changes are for me, and will benefit me and my kids regardless of what happens with W.

Is she giving you specific shortcomings.......or, are you just apologizing without knowing the crime? I just want to caution you about taking ownership of her feelings. I think a lot of men give an overall apology, hoping it will make the WW feel better and they can get that (whatever "that" is) behind them. Okay, so you apologized. No need to apologize again for the same offense.

Complacency and focusing too much on kids and not enough on R. That's all either of us have spoken about.

Drop the MC. If she decides to continue IC, that's up to her. After reconciliation, you can attend MC.
See a lawyer to know where you stand legally, how to protect yourself financially, get equal time with your kids, etc. I want to make this clear. I can't stress enough how important it is to protect yourself. Make it your priority. I would drop the Sunday dinners, and playing happy family. WW's want their freedom, but they also want to hold on to family traditions, especially during the holidays. Don't initiate contacts with her.

No more MC, though I did have an individual session with our MC yesterday, W asked if she could come over this Sunday, and I said it was her decision.


If you knew for certain there was OM in the picture, would you do something different?

I would go from "friendly cashier" to throwing her stuff out on the lawn, Our MC does not think she has OM, but she is definitely running and abandoning her old life due to her own internal struggle.

[sandi2]

Thanks for your quick response to my questions. The more you can tell us about the marital history, the better observation we'll have about the overall situation. So far, I'm not hear a lot of fear in your posts, which it good b/c there are LBH's who are paralyzed with fear of losing his family.

I suggest that you put together a plan of action. Take a few days, keep a private journal to write out your goals, the initiative steps to take and how you will keep the momentum going. Some board members use their thread as a journal. Another word of caution is accepting the fact the ground has shifted b/c of whatever crises your W is experiencing. I listed several things in my first thread about the mindset of WW, and one of the points was she is not the same girl the H remembers marrying. There'll be times he will swear something evil has invaded her body. We have a saying around here.........hold your cards close to your chance. Don't forfeit the game by sharing everything you know, or have done, or tell her the advice you be given. Some H feel so desperate and panicky, they are scared to pull up their own boot straps without telling his W first. So, hold your deck of cards very close.

You feel awake and probably energized and would love for you and W to make a clean slate, reconnect or recommit, etc. But as things stand momentarily, I think she would get you to spill your guts and tell her everything. I mean, you've been with her for nearly 20 years and you've never kept secrets away from her.......................have you? Before you can safely interact with her in the hope of drawing her back, I strongly encourage you to get very serious about getting free legal advice, and learn some domestic laws and what you can and can't do. She has opened this up........so, don't just sit around with your fingers crossed she'll do the right thing. If she does you'll be setting great, and if doesn't your plan is has already been set into action. That's why the H & W need different lawyers. You always try to show dignity, honor, self-respect, and self confidence. If you feel you are being equal/fair and can maintain a civilized interact without somebody's feathers getting ruffled, then that will be great, and if peace lingers in your co-parenting or other things, who knows if it will help her to see you more objectively.......and likes what she sees.

So, see if you can schedule a couple of free meetings with lawyers this next week. They may give you no more than 30 minutes, so have a hand written list of what to ask the lawyer. BTW, doesn't use a lawyer that represents her too.

You've already started with the kids scheduling, so that's good. I think you and W will need to decide where the kids go during Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, etc. Be cooperate and fair (and don't forget grandpa & grandma wants to see them too.) Gut have that discussion when you feel the time feels right. That way, it won't be hanging over your head throughout the holiday season. But...........don't tell her what all your inquired about from your lawyer. It is legal, and the only reason I suggest not saying anything to her first, is knowing you beat her to it. And it won't change. This is what she thinks she wants, and the first holidays coming up are tough, and you do not have to discuss your business with friends or in-laws, but having been there myself.......it can be quite a shock. And the sadness, we felt as if our family was being ripped apart. It gets better after those first few times going without her.

From this point forward, you will need to retrain your brain a little. You don't have the same behavior pattern when you first get home from work, where you might engage in a few minutes of discussing the day........which, of course, includes you seeing a lawyer. I just don't think you should tell her everything about the money, property, savings, etc. BTW, are you one of these type guys who does all the house chores so the little princess can lie down and recover from her day? Does she ask you to bring her things when the two of you down, maybe you are involved in something else, but you lay everything down and get what she wants and delivers........b/c one of you see that as love language.

Never forget who is the head of this family. It is a tremendous responsibility, buy you can do it. If she faces you in pure defiance/ rebellion/and outrage........,..try to remain calm and don't get into a scuffle over stuff. You can also keep records in your journal about this OM, I'm more in favor of being a man who can turn her head...........and don't allow thoughts of him occupy much head room. Don't brings it up to her, Don't talk about him to her and how you ruin his career, etc. I understand you have these feelings. If you really want to know more details, then hire a detective.. You may want to know the man's name. Don't obsessed about the affair partner.

Okay, another thing you need to do is set personal boundaries. That's like drawing an invisible line around yourself, and if someone dishonors that boundary and stomps over that line in the sand............you will be the one to take action that protects your well being, respect, or whatever is at stake here. But, I'll warn you that the consequences for the person who stepped over the line should receive a some form of consequence, or else what does it accomplish? Since she is running the daycare in your home, I do see how that would be difficult because of the laws and the rooms to be a certain size. etc.

Well i Have to call it a night. Not that it matters, but I think your W can work through this. It's just a matter of her not wanting to that's the pits.

[CanBird]

Thanks for the feedback. Maybe filing D unnecessary if I just proceed to discuss what D would look like for her. Not going to rush a decision on it, but love gathering all your opinions.

Don't file if that's not what YOU want.

[sandi2]

It seems detaching is the most difficult for newcomers to grasp.....much less actually doing it. I have a favorite copy of a much shorter definition/example of detaching. I'm going to paste it below.

****************************************************************************************************

Definition of Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)

I. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.

When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love (known as to lovingly detach*), we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flip-side, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.

It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.

We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).

We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)


PART II Detachment (found around here)

Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.

* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my duty/job to do so.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanding or controlling.

* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow S to be who he/she really is rather than who I want him/her to be.

IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -

We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.

[WMLC]

I have already gotten legal advice to protect myself and the kids. I'm in a decent position in this regard, The fact that she has essentially left the home to sleep at her friend's house nightly will benefit me if D becomes a reality.

I do not speak to W about her day or anything like that since BD. Small acts of love have been halted. I only respond if she initiates. Been focused on detaching and on spending time with S11 (and communicating with S18 at college).

I am becoming more convinced that she needs to see what her life without me/family will look like before she realizes that while her M wasn't perfect, it can be renewed and saved for her benefit. Unfortunately her friends (and presumably her IC) are pushing D, rather than anything resembling DB principles.

Sandi, what did your H do (if anything) during your sitch that helped/hurt your decision to R?