Time for a little red pill. Uni they won't own it and never will because they are women. They will vilify, justify, and make you the enemy in their minds, etc until the cows come home. Its because they have no accountability or agency, and are subjected to their feelings that they can't even figure out. They just know that something feels off in the R. Whether it be due to them changing, you changing, life stresses, perceived social value and worth, self esteem, whatever, take you're pick as to why things failed, there are so many moving parts and facets, they just know they want to feel a certain way. If there was a guy that any XW perceive as high market value. Social, looks, financial, status, etc. She would bed them in a heartbeat, toxic or not. They vilify you with their emotions to justify what they are doing to you. Taking away the kids, crying emotional abuse, splitting assets, being difficult and dramatic. You re kids are being used as pawns to finance her new lifestyle she desires. She's bored. She also wants to save her reputation amongst her peers and family that she is the victim, you are the bad guy, its all you're fault. And she comes out smelling like roses in the divorce. Why do you think she is pushing you so far to end it? And to tell you the truth? If they ever do choose to change their minds? If they can do it once. They can do it again. It would take a very serious amount of remorse, conditions, trust rebuilding, communication, and respect to EVEN CONSIDER TAKING THEM BACK. LH is right about pursuit, placating, and even strength does not get them back. Its just a wishy washy decision, or they couldn't find a better option out there that brings them back. IMO. Otherwise they're gone!!! Even when they are married they are single, and when they are single, they are never really single. You re lifestyle has to benefit hers and compliment hers or she's out and onto the next adventure, person, etc. She's looking for validation for her existence and current state of emotions. Ever wonder why women move on so fast and the guys are blindsided? Care to test that theory? What external and internal lifestyle changes did any of our XW's make after BD? What are the real reasons why? WHY IS SHE NOT HAPPY? What does it have to do with you? Why do I keep reading about these cases of divorce and these same exact circumstances, scripts and words occuring around the 38 to 40 yr old mark with women? Or just around the 8 to 10 year mark within a M? (10 year alimony mark in some states.) That's not to say the guy didn't bring his share of problems to the M. I know I definately did.
When you also add the cocktail of complacency, bordeom, FOMO, repetition, childhood trauma. They are (and even we are to an extent) seeking something to heal us, fill us, make our lives right, our interactions and dynamics right and our worth correctly assessed. We start looking for new experiences outside ourselves to fill the bucket. New car, new nails, new clothes, new partner, new hobbies, new travel, new experiences. It is all part of the growth process, but its important to recognize where our experiences, worth and happiness come from. From outside of us and our exoeriences, materialism, socialism, hobbies, acquirement objects, or from within? This place taught me that. I'm sitting here on my couch on a Sat night. Haven't been out in a month, and contemplating whether I should be focusing on my priorities or going out to have a new experience even if it is alone. I feel like I want to go out and meet people and have a new experience because life is passing me by. Money is tight though. Maybe I will maybe I won't. Just tired of being a hermit and choosing between feeling accomplished, and being social. I've been enjoying the solitude for the last month but its time to branch out, make some plans, make some changes, make some new friends, and have some new experiences.
This is my truth IHCALS Read this like 3 times since you posted. What are we left to do. Become the person they want? That's my instinct 3 months in. Become the person I want to be, lose my wife and run the fear of being alone, or worse this happening again.
I'm forcing myself to go out faking to the extreme, at some point I want peace, comfort and satisfaction
I hear ya Jedevast. Peace, quiet, freedom, and satisfaction. I think a lot of this has to do with withdrawal pangs on our side of the life we were accustomed to. To the life we have to reestablish, monetarily, organizational, socially, spiritually, etc. We lose a lot in all of this. The money, the kids, the companionship, the house, the friends, the family members. I really miss that social aspect of it. Ever notice with guys when you start dating someone new, your friends and your family rendezvous slowly over time become virtually nill. You used to hang with them once every couple of weeks, then it got reduced to twice a year because of work, wife, kids, social functions, cousins, in-laws, dinners, vacations. Etc. The irony of all relationships is you are slowly isolated as you make your SO, their friends and their family you're everything and you don't even realize its happening. If you do keep your own independent social network in a R or M and in their perception you spend too much time with them, and not enough with her or her family. You can't win. Danes if you do dambed if you don't. Its solipsistic. And they are never happy. Either way they will use it as an excuse to leave and discard. Its a double standard. I noticed now in hindsight how many times I had my family over or did something with my family, I wouldnt be shamed for it, but resentment would crop up every now and again. I realized that every time I would invite my family over I would have to take it to the yard because someone wanted their DT. TV time. But her friends and her family. Didn't matter if I just came home from work. I would have to and want to entertain. We thought these people had our backs for life, only to find out we didnt really know them at all, or they changed, or we changed. I find it amazing that so many years ago, im sure they held us in such high regard. "He does this this and that for me." "He makes me feel this this and that." He is my lover, my best friend, he is perfect." Its the old adage of. "I love you, you're perfect, now change, or I will replace you." Then turns into. " IANILWYA, I need space.." What they are really saying is "Im bored, Im tired. I want a new experience, a new life, and I want some new D*ck!"
As far as becoming the person they want you to be. Screw that $hit! I think it's good to work on your tactfulness, people skills, and interactions as a skill set. But if you are going to change for someone else, there better be a dann good reason for it that is beneficial to all. Otherwise change for you. Nobody needs resentment or idealism of a person that is not. Changing for other people rarely sticks because of individuality and free will, People are who they are. If they want to they will change IF THEY want it bad enough. Habits are different from personality characteristics. Don't become the person they want you to be. That's a chameleon, not authentic and not genuine, you lose your identity that way. Just ask my XW... Lol..As far as meeting their unreasonable and never ending expectations. You can't satisfy her. She changes her shoes, her nails, her clothes, her music, and sometimes her mates and her friends by the season. We are on different timetables growth wise, peak, and decline. Its what benefits her. Ask Eve. Paradise of Eden wasn't enough... Lol..So what do they do? They vilify you to justify what they are doing to you. So they can okay the victim with their peers and come our smelling like roses. THEY WILL GIVE YOU SO MUCH $HIT THAT YOU WILL WANT TO DIVORCE THEM. Don't be mad at it, its just nature. Just recognize it for what it is in this day and age. In their minds, you weren't the right one, and they expect you to believe that too. Or you married the wrong one. When the truth is THE MAJORITY OF THEM ARE LIKE THAT TO ONE DEGREE OR ANOTHER. Its the ones like KAS99 and Scout and a few others here that understand commitment over passion, and I hope they're situation works out for them.
Time for a little red pill. Uni they won't own it and never will because they are women.
IHC - So much of what you say resonates with me. However, I hesitate to generalize this to gender roles.
My mother was extremely controlling, and probably has BPD or some sort of similar PD. My XGF before my W was controlling. My W... the story is laid out on my thread.
Does this mean all women are controlling and will ultimately emotionally abandon me? What does it say about me? Do I somehow influence these outcomes to happen? Am I (gasp) somehow attracted to this sort of woman, due to emotional neglect from my childhood?
It is a mind-screw for sure. It feels like I am a statistic. It happens to some people. Bad luck? Or bad choices?
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
They will vilify, justify, and make you the enemy in their minds, etc until the cows come home. Its because they have no accountability or agency, and are subjected to their feelings that they can't even figure out. They just know that something feels off in the R. Whether it be due to them changing, you changing, life stresses, perceived social value and worth, self esteem, whatever, take you're pick as to why things failed, there are so many moving parts and facets, they just know they want to feel a certain way.
Completely agree with the above. I don't think my W is looking for a new man to replace me, I think she decided she would be happier without me. New man will come along one day, and I will spin and spiral and all that, but I don't think that was the motivator.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
They vilify you with their emotions to justify what they are doing to you. Taking away the kids, crying emotional abuse, splitting assets, being difficult and dramatic. You re kids are being used as pawns to finance her new lifestyle she desires. She's bored. She also wants to save her reputation amongst her peers and family that she is the victim, you are the bad guy, its all you're fault. And she comes out smelling like roses in the divorce. Why do you think she is pushing you so far to end it? And to tell you the truth? If they ever do choose to change their minds? If they can do it once. They can do it again. It would take a very serious amount of remorse, conditions, trust rebuilding, communication, and respect to EVEN CONSIDER TAKING THEM BACK. LH is right about pursuit, placating, and even strength does not get them back.
Agreed. I don't particularly care what her family and friends think. It is harsh, but eh... I didn't marry them, I married my W. Good people, and I can understand how they may get caught up taking sides. My W reminded me a month ago that her family thinks very highly of me and she "hadn't told them much." All I could think was "OK". It's out of my control, and also doesn't affect me.
I don't think much about R because it would require my W seeing me as a person of high value. That's just not going to happen right now, or probably ever. The more distance I have, the more time apart, the more I am moving on with life. Maybe one day she comes back wanting to work on things, willing to accept her role and responsibility. I have zero faith that will ever happen.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
You re lifestyle has to benefit hers and compliment hers or she's out and onto the next adventure, person, etc. She's looking for validation for her existence and current state of emotions. Ever wonder why women move on so fast and the guys are blindsided? Care to test that theory? What external and internal lifestyle changes did any of our XW's make after BD? What are the real reasons why? WHY IS SHE NOT HAPPY? What does it have to do with you? Why do I keep reading about these cases of divorce and these same exact circumstances, scripts and words occuring around the 38 to 40 yr old mark with women? Or just around the 8 to 10 year mark within a M? (10 year alimony mark in some states.) That's not to say the guy didn't bring his share of problems to the M. I know I definately did.
I do think emotional reasoning plays a huge role. I also think everyone is an emotional reasoner. I tend to think I am a "logical thinker" but research has shown that usually emotions drive the decision-making and then our brains go to work coming up with logic and reasons to support that line of thinking.
As far as her happiness, I do hope she finds it. Maybe this will ultimately make her happy.
Strangely, being S'd for 5 months now, I can say I am happier in a lot of ways. So maybe she is too.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
The irony of all relationships is you are slowly isolated as you make your SO, their friends and their family you're everything and you don't even realize its happening. If you do keep your own independent social network in a R or M and in their perception you spend too much time with them, and not enough with her or her family. You can't win. Danes if you do dambed if you don't. Its solipsistic. And they are never happy. Either way they will use it as an excuse to leave and discard. Its a double standard. I noticed now in hindsight how many times I had my family over or did something with my family, I wouldnt be shamed for it, but resentment would crop up every now and again. I realized that every time I would invite my family over I would have to take it to the yard because someone wanted their DT. TV time. But her friends and her family. Didn't matter if I just came home from work. I would have to and want to entertain. We thought these people had our backs for life, only to find out we didnt really know them at all, or they changed, or we changed. I find it amazing that so many years ago, im sure they held us in such high regard. "He does this this and that for me." "He makes me feel this this and that." He is my lover, my best friend, he is perfect." Its the old adage of. "I love you, you're perfect, now change, or I will replace you." Then turns into. " IANILWYA, I need space.." What they are really saying is "Im bored, Im tired. I want a new experience, a new life"
This is how my MR played out. It also didn't help that my mother has issues and so we ended up estranged from my parents.
If I had addressed my NGS, I would have made sure to carve out a stronger role in the MR. I would have kept in touch with my friends and family more, and made sure to have my own life, rather than working full-time then rushing home to give my W a break from the kids every single day. It's partly my fault, partly hers.
If I end up dating again and starting new relationships, I will not let the same script play out. Am I ready for that today? Absolutely not (haha). I know as soon as something turns serious, I will be tested.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
As far as becoming the person they want you to be. Screw that $hit! I think it's good to work on your tactfulness, people skills, and interactions as a skill set. But if you are going to change for someone else, there better be a dann good reason for it that is beneficial to all. Otherwise change for you. Nobody needs resentment or idealism of a person that is not. Changing for other people rarely sticks because of individuality and free will, People are who they are. If they want to they will change IF THEY want it bad enough. Habits are different from personality characteristics. Don't become the person they want you to be. That's a chameleon, not authentic and not genuine, you lose your identity that way. Just ask my XW... Lol..As far as meeting their unreasonable and never ending expectations. You can't satisfy her. She changes her shoes, her nails, her clothes, her music, and sometimes her mates and her friends by the season. We are on different timetables growth wise, peak, and decline. Its what benefits her. Ask Eve. Paradise of Eden wasn't enough... Lol..So what do they do? They vilify you to justify what they are doing to you. So they can okay the victim with their peers and come our smelling like roses. THEY WILL GIVE YOU SO MUCH $HIT THAT YOU WILL WANT TO DIVORCE THEM. Don't be mad at it, its just nature. Just recognize it for what it is in this day and age. In their minds, you weren't the right one, and they expect you to believe that too. Or you married the wrong one. When the truth is THE MAJORITY OF THEM ARE LIKE THAT TO ONE DEGREE OR ANOTHER. Its the ones like KAS99 and Scout and a few others here that understand commitment over passion, and I hope they're situation works out for them.
I cringe reading this, but also... I do feel like my W decided to keep vilifying me until I begrudgingly accepted we had to D. I don't believe the majority of women are like this (or I certainly hope not!)
One of the dangers for me is that, while self-improvement and change are good, they can become elusive goals that are ever out of reach. They can distract you from enjoying your day to day life. I'm starting to realize that my anxiety about my flaws really disrupts my ability to enjoy day-to-day life sometimes, which is exactly the problem! Married, divorced, 30% custody, 50% custody, broke, rich... gotta be able to be happy no matter what life throws at you. That's my goal.
IHCLACS—please be careful with tossing around gender stereotypes this way. I feel alienated reading what you wrote, and I don’t want to feel that way here.
A lot of what you say resonates as it pertains to WAS in general, and I think it’s best to leave it at that. Not trying to highjack and DEFINITELY don’t want to start a debate. This is just a friendly request
IMO - Talking about characteristics of particular genders can lead to dangerous generalizations. I think it is best to try to understand that all of this is not about us, it is not something that the LBS are going through, regardless of gender.
Here is something I tell myself every single day. It may be useful or it may not be:
At the heart of it, it is the WAS in crisis. Not us. You can call it what you like (MLC, WAS, etc), but the LBS has all of the control here. That is something many of us forget. We choose how we proceed. We can let our emotions take us over, we can tell ourselves stories about how we were mistreated, how we were hurt, how we were wronged, etc.
Or, we can choose to empathize with what our WAS's are going through, and let them sort through their own problems. Give them time, give them space, leave them alone. That's what they want after all, right?
Trying to figure them out is a waste of our time and our resources. It won't change the past, it doesn't do any of us any good to worry about what will happen in the future.
All we have is now. And all we have to do with "now" is work on ourselves.
I guess the point of a lot of my recent posts is that I feel betrayed and resentful.
I try my best to empathize with her struggle and let her go. IW, you summarized exactly what I aspire to do. She says so little (and has said so little during the BD other than accusing me of abuse) that it's hard to tell what exactly she is struggling with.
I still feel betrayed. She distanced herself for 2+ years, withdrew into a shell, then when I showed any sort of emotion about it, she freaked out. I would have done anything to try to fix this, had she shown any interest whatsoever. But instead she said I didn't "try to win her back."
I see my W as someone completely lacking in basic relationship skills. And worse... as someone completely uninterested in working on her relationship skills, or accepting her role in the erosion of our MR.
We are not at this place out of blind innocence, as if she just didn't know what she wanted but she was unhappy and now here we are. She wanted the D, but she didn't want the guilt involved with asking for it. It does make me angry.
This post will read more emotionally strong than I really feel. My IC suggested I tap into some of the anger and resentment, rather than try to minimize them. They are there, simmering on low heat.
I know.. it's a sign I am still attached... sigh...
I guess the point of a lot of my recent posts is that I feel betrayed and resentful.
Completely normal. Everyone is different. My anger and resentment reared it's head very briefly. It makes an occasional reappearance every once in a while. How we all process this is unique to each one of us.
Originally Posted by Unchien
She says so little (and has said so little during the BD other than accusing me of abuse) that it's hard to tell what exactly she is struggling with.
My W is the same. I also did the same things you did in trying to understand her, get her to talk, etc. I hit critical mass in Jan/Feb, then I decided to just leave her completely alone in March. I had to figure it out on my own without her communicating, but it turned out that it is exactly what she wanted/needed.
I would suggest that your W (if she is like mine) cannot communicate her thoughts clearly to you right now. Probably because she doesn't know what she is thinking herself or why she is thinking those things.
She told you what she believed *at that moment*. That does not make those things ironclad or "forever". Rather, that was HER truth in those moments. That's the nature of the crisis - and maybe saying those things were safe ways she could distance herself from exploring the true feelings she was having.
It is much easier to justify yourself or project hurt onto someone else than it is to discover your own feelings are so out of whack. From everything I've read, the crisis seems to be like a siren blaring in your head. That must be incredibly difficult to have to go through.
Quote
But instead she said I didn't "try to win her back."
If she said this once, it was what she was feeling at that particular moment. Due to the crisis, her perspective is different than yours right now, and it is possible she may not even remember saying it.
It is for you to choose how much significance or emphasis you give this statement. It can become a focal point for all the MR issues. Or you can let it pass as something your W said in the heat of the moment when she was suffering greatly. It is all up to you.
Originally Posted by Unchien
I see my W as someone completely lacking in basic relationship skills. And worse... as someone completely uninterested in working on her relationship skills, or accepting her role in the erosion of our MR.
We are not at this place out of blind innocence, as if she just didn't know what she wanted but she was unhappy and now here we are. She wanted the D, but she didn't want the guilt involved with asking for it. It does make me angry.
Textbook WAS behavior. My W was the same. She wanted S, D, selling the house, without anything else changing. It took a rude awakening from me - kindly but firmly setting boundaries and stating that I would not be paying for half of non-joint bills, that I had no money for (or interest in) renovating a house that would be sold, and that the amount the house would sell for would not be nearly as much as she was thinking - for her to pause and reflect. She is still at that stage now.
A few suggestions: I might perhaps recommend re-reading this post and see how much you are still talking about W and how she is feeling. That is an area you can work on.
I might also recommend that you take care in assigning any of your W's past actions/feelings/emotions/words to any particular cause for MR troubles. While analyzing what happened may help you to understand how you got where you are today, I am fairly certain your W is not thinking those same things right now.
Quote
I know.. it's a sign I am still attached... sigh...
Nobody is perfect, U. I screw up a lot too. I stumble, I fall, I let my thoughts overwhelm me. It's human nature. The trick is to realize you're doing it and to reassess.
Don't beat yourself up too much. You're doing great - you're growing stronger every day and you're doing the hard work.
My W asked to work on our parenting schedule through June (our current one runs out end of this month). We are currently doing a 4-10 schedule which I do not think is enough time with the kids (plus a dinner mixed in there).
Note we are intending to start mediation soon. I am starting to get frustrated at the pace, and may consider filing for D if we don't get the ball rolling.
Options:
1. Stick with our existing schedule for now, and say I want to negotiate a new temporary schedule during mediation (the final D will take >12 months in my state).
2. Tell her I want to talk about this only in front of a mediator.
3. Tell her I want to talk about this only in front of a mediator or MC2 (MC2 has heated her abuse allegations for the past 6 months).
4. Try to negotiate with her directly.
I have a lot swimming in my head. I'd like to do something close to a 2-2-5-5, but perhaps make it more like a 2-2-6-4 for now (I get 6/14 days). I don't know my W's intended work schedule. She has already questioned how I would handle child care during the weekdays I have the kids (especially D3 who does not currently go to day care). I feel like these little logistical arguments will make it really difficult for us to work it out 1:1.
She also asked to pull D5 and S7 from school for a week (on independent study) to take them on a trip. She offered the other week to me, and if I don't use it, she wants that also (the kids can do 2 weeks per year of independent study). I don't have any particular objections at their current ages, as they both do incredibly well in school and have taken time off before, but I'm not sure I should be agreeing to these type of things.
