Navigating EA and Limbo (#2)

[KristinG]

Ughhghh May! My heart hurts for you. Your H reminds me so much of my ww. The intense emotion behind their "feelings" and how they just can't end things. H is just addicted to being stuck. He can't bring himself to end things (selfish) with AP, yet doesn't have the strength to leave you. It must feel so frustrating for you.

One thing that has helped me stay grounded and not think about what I should or should not do is this:

Everyone deserves happiness. You wouldn't want him if choosing you didn't bring him joy. You deserve happiness. You deserve the world. Take some deep breaths and focus on each moment and what would bring you joy. Push him out of your mind and all of the "if" scenarios away. You can't control any of it.

Stay Strong!

And PS. I like your idea about practicing how to react to PA BD (fingers crossed it never happens..).

KG

[may22]

Thanks, Kristin! I'm feeling back like I did right after previous BDs, and it was especially hard this time because my parents were here and I had to be "on" for them. They left today, and I'm hoping that the space that brings will be helpful for both of us.

I saw on your thread that meditation is helping and I think I should start that back up-- and focusing on what I CAN control, not what I can't. Also, in trying to parse through more logically why I feel the way I do, I think it is partially the pressure of the holidays/family and the not-knowing of what has been/is going on with the AP. As I back up a bit, even though he is still in contact and "in love" with AP, things are still better than they were before (baby steps):

Actions:
-- he moved back into the MB and went from saying he couldn't imagine ever being sexual with me again and that he wasn't attracted to me (and not initiating/having sex for months) to opening the door now four times in the past couple of months. (After BD1 in April, I said something to him about wanting to focus on my own sexuality for myself, and his reaction was one of disgust-- he made a face and said "ugh, you don't want to say that to me." So the fact that he's now initiating sex, even in the middle of the night and clearly very conflicted about it-- is definitely better than being grossed out.)

-- he went from flinching at my touch and always moving away-- if I touched my knee to his on the couch, for instance, he would move his away-- to initiating touch- putting his hand on my shoulder, touching my arm, cuddling up close next to me to do the crossword puzzle together. This is fairly regular and even though I sensed him drawing away somewhat this past week, there have still been opportunities for him to initiate touch that he's taken.

-- our R is much, much improved from the past. We went from lots of fighting and palpable anger and resentment steaming off of him every time we were together back to being very good friends. No matter what happens, I have learned a ton about relationships and communicating.

Words (knowing I am not putting a lot into them vs actions, but nonetheless):
-- even though he said out loud he wanted to move down to the basement, he hasn't... and in the two most recent R talks, he went from "thinking about moving out" to "I don't know what I want."

-- he has said in the last couple of R talks that he could see a new MR with me as a (remotely) possible option-- previously did not see it as a possibility at all and was very definitive about that.

-- he's really opened up about other issues unrelated to our R and shared emotionally vulnerable things with me, about friends (or lack thereof), his work, etc. I know these are things he hasn't shared with anyone else other than his IC. We talk way more now about important non-kid/family related things than we have in years, probably since before the kids were born.

One of the main issues I have will be making him understand that our R the way it is now will not continue if we S or D-- I won't be his best friend anymore. I think he is vastly underestimating the depth of what this means, and he imagines we would still be best friends and eat dinners and vacation together, just he'd go sleep at his own place.

I guess we'll cross that bridge of him needing to fully understand what losing me means if we have to but at this point I feel like he's deciding between pursuing a R with the AP together with the fantasy divorce idea with me vs. choosing a boring, passionless MR with me, plus losing out on the possibility of real romance/connection with someone else. I get that in that scenario, the MR with me does not look so great. However, I don't think there is anything I can do in terms of helping him to understand this (or helping him deal with the fallout/grief of NC with the AP to the extent he does actually try), right? It is something he will have to come to on his own?

[wooba]

It is so weird-- my H is someone who has prided himself his entire life on being 100% honest. He is/was very religious (is now questioning his faith in addition to everything else, and has stopped going to church) and he was very critical of people who lied, even small white lies.

my H is the same. I think 1. they are confused. 2. they are irrational. 3. they start with the little lies, and it just gets easier to easier to lie. 5. they are selfish.

Now when my H calls and tells me that he's not gonna be home after work, and asks me to let the kids know that he's still working, I just hand the phone over to S and have H tell it to them HIMSELF. I used to tell the kids that "daddy said he's working late again." and it made me very uncomfortable to lie to the kids, so I'm passing it to him. You are the one who walked away, come up with your own excuses to our children. That's a boundary for me. If the kids ask me where he is, I simply answer "I don't know" because I really don't. I guess the good thing is that they are still young enough where they don't think too much about it.

Sorry, I digressed. I needed to vent. lol!!

[SteveLW]

Question-- earlier you said that EAs either burn out or turn into PAs. Do you think the physical portion is all that important in keeping the A going? I wonder because I think his emotional connection to the AP is quite strong-- he considers it a relationship, she feels the same way, etc.-- and they simply don't have very much opportunity to be physical with each other. I wonder if it makes his connection feel all the stronger being away from her. Yesterday I said something to him that I shouldn't have (was tired and sad) and he said "this isn't about her. this is about us." I said "if it was, you'd stop." and he said, "(pause) touche." I walked away and left it at that, but from our talk the other night, he feels he's tried to go NC and simply can't stick to it because of their connection. I just need to keep to the path, right, and either he'll start getting more interested in me and the MR or take a step in the other direction?

I said that because clearly his EA hasn't burned out. When an EA burns out, usually one or both, but usually the OP, will move on to a new EA. I find that a large percentage of people that engage in EAs are addicted to them. And have to have one going at any given time. Sometimes they specifically target someone that has a spouse or significant other due to the challenge involved. So since it seems that his hasn't burned out, and the OW is still engaging, it makes me think it is either already a PA or is headed there. And while there isn't readily available physical access between the two of them, it sounds like they at least occasionally have access to each other. Also, there are more than one way to be "physical" with one another as well, though there is still distance involved. Also, with all of this talk about their "connection", go back and read what I wrote about Hs and sex earlier in your thread, and then frame it in regard to his feeling of connection to her.

So the too long didn't read version is: I said that to prepare you for the likelihood that this has or will go physical.

But the answer to your last question is yes. Just keep DBing. The better you DB the better the chance he will wake up. But it isn't full proof. However, the better you DB the better you will be prepared mentally and emotionally for the outcome no matter what it is.

The biggest red flag I see with you is that you are still a bit in denial about the state of things. Assume the worst. Hope for the best. This is why I typically, especially early on, try to keep LBSs from being too hopeful about positive signs. You have to prepare yourself for the worst because unfortunately, even with exceptional DBing, the odds are against you. As another marriage saving expert puts it: you can't fix in a few weeks or months what it took you years to get into. The simple truth is that if the WAS wants to leave, get a D, and move on...they will.

[may22]

I said that because clearly his EA hasn't burned out. When an EA burns out, usually one or both, but usually the OP, will move on to a new EA. I find that a large percentage of people that engage in EAs are addicted to them. And have to have one going at any given time. Sometimes they specifically target someone that has a spouse or significant other due to the challenge involved. So since it seems that his hasn't burned out, and the OW is still engaging, it makes me think it is either already a PA or is headed there. And while there isn't readily available physical access between the two of them, it sounds like they at least occasionally have access to each other. Also, there are more than one way to be "physical" with one another as well, though there is still distance involved. Also, with all of this talk about their "connection", go back and read what I wrote about Hs and sex earlier in your thread, and then frame it in regard to his feeling of connection to her.

So the too long didn't read version is: I said that to prepare you for the likelihood that this has or will go physical.

This is helpful. I hadn't thought of the OW all that much and what her motivations are-- just kind of assumed if she was smart she'd move on as a married man with kids living 5000 miles away just isn't a great prospect. But from your posts (also Caligirl's) it is now hitting me that she may not be using the same ethical and decision-making framework as I would, thus the possibility of seeking out and sticking with a married man and/or sleeping around. Ugh. It makes me more annoyed/sad at H for being such an f--ing cliche, but also maybe more clear-eyed about her motivations and the likelihood that she'll back off. A couple of months ago he said she "wasn't happy" about all this-- I think before he moved back into the MB but can't remember exactly-- and it definitely seemed like she was pressuring him. I generally am trying not to talk about her at all.

The biggest red flag I see with you is that you are still a bit in denial about the state of things. Assume the worst. Hope for the best. This is why I typically, especially early on, try to keep LBSs from being too hopeful about positive signs. You have to prepare yourself for the worst because unfortunately, even with exceptional DBing, the odds are against you. As another marriage saving expert puts it: you can't fix in a few weeks or months what it took you years to get into. The simple truth is that if the WAS wants to leave, get a D, and move on...they will.

Yes, I see this. I guess I am needing to focus on the positive because the alternative is so painful. I haven't really accepted that there is a good likelihood this will all end in D-- I keep telling myself at the other end, this will have been a rocky part of our M and we'll both be so glad we stuck it out. This means I need to work more on detachment, right? When I allow myself to think about what D would mean, only having my kids with me half the time, the possibility of him actually dating or living with this person, my heart starts racing, my stomach drops out, and I am consumed with anxiety. I calm myself by taking deep breaths and telling myself we'll cross that bridge when and if we come to it. I am getting better at handling the idea of him cheating, mentally and physically... I think I could handle that BD if/when it comes. What I can't handle is the idea of him actually leaving and walking away from our family. That to me would be unforgivable-- the rest I can handle.

But the answer to your last question is yes. Just keep DBing. The better you DB the better the chance he will wake up. But it isn't full proof. However, the better you DB the better you will be prepared mentally and emotionally for the outcome no matter what it is.

So... GAL? Focus on me? Whatever I can do to work on detachment? I think I'm pretty good at the 180s and my interactions with him at this point. But I am really hanging onto hope. For me, I feel like the best route to detachment is to focus on all his terrible qualities and tell myself I'm better off without him... but then not sure that is the right path either if I do want to R. He does respond well to positive interactions and when I start to get annoyed and angry with him for doing this, he both catches on quickly to my mood and responds by backing off.

[may22]

Not a ton to report. I've been feeling pretty anxious following the recent conversation and adjusting to the possibility that this might be more than an EA as well as him admitting they never really stopped being in contact. Went out with friends Monday and Tuesday night and tonight took kids to see a movie while H went for drinks with a friend.

I'd felt like he was withdrawing somewhat while my family was here and the day or so after the sex/talk, but yesterday and today he's been texting me a bunch during the day, joking around, kind of back to where we were except that I'm more guarded and (honestly) fearful again, having a hard time concentrating at work.

Going to try to channel my anxiety into more GAL-ing and being more deliberate in my interactions with him like I was earlier on in the DBing mode.

my H is the same. I think 1. they are confused. 2. they are irrational. 3. they start with the little lies, and it just gets easier to easier to lie. 5. they are selfish.

Now when my H calls and tells me that he's not gonna be home after work, and asks me to let the kids know that he's still working, I just hand the phone over to S and have H tell it to them HIMSELF. I used to tell the kids that "daddy said he's working late again." and it made me very uncomfortable to lie to the kids, so I'm passing it to him. You are the one who walked away, come up with your own excuses to our children. That's a boundary for me. If the kids ask me where he is, I simply answer "I don't know" because I really don't. I guess the good thing is that they are still young enough where they don't think too much about it.

HI Woosa,
I do think the lying is a total slippery slope. And then when they look back and see the all that they're doing, the lies, hurting you, hurting the family, it is like they HAVE to believe that it was all worthwhile and so focus even more on the OW or whatever... otherwise they are destroying their families for NOTHING. Seems like a vicious circle... and must be awful to be the one stuck in it, as awful as it is to be the ones they're doing this to.

That really s**cks that he's trying to make you lie to the kids. Good on you to make him tell them himself. My D7 asked me early on in all of this if we were ever going to get a divorce... something she'd asked in the past and I always said no, baby, never. This time I said baby, I would never want a divorce. She asked, what about daddy? I said she'd have to ask daddy that. I don't know if she actually did or not, but I wanted to vomit.

[Rosy10]

May, I read your whole thread to catch myself up on your story and I just want to say I admire your strength and the changes you’ve made! Like you mentioned in my thread, our H have some similarities regarding their behavior. My H also used to be 100% honest with me and I’m a person who prefers when people are transparent so it feels particularly hurtful to see him not being truthful. But it does seem like a slippery slope of one omission or white lie leading to more and more. If my H admits to an A, I hope I can be as strong as you are.

[SteveLW]

woosa, is 100% right on this. Lying usually starts small and snowballs. And this has been the case since the beginning of time. Cane and Abel. David and Bathsheeba. Even the story of Abraham lying to Pharoah about Sarah not being his wife, and Pharoah was almost killed for it. Smalls lies have a way of turning into big lies, and even into worse sins.

However, I will caution LBSs. Dwelling on the lies that WASs tell is a fool's game. After all, if they are willing to sleep with another person, lying about that awful act of adultery is really not that surprising. There is a reason we tell LBSs "Believe NOTHING they say. And only half of what they do." Someone that would cheat on their spouse really can't be trusted in any other way. (Which is what amazed me about Bill Clinton, when he finally admitted to his affair with Lewinsky, after lying about it, then turned all sanctimonious about how he never coerced anyone to lie about it. Initially, saying "yes I cheated on my W, lied about it, but believe me when I tell you I never tried to get others to help cover it up!" As if his word carried any meaning. This is NOT meant to be political, but to point out why a cheater and liar cannot be believed no matter how insistent they are that they are now telling the truth.)

[wooba]

woosa, is 100% right on this.

I feel like a student getting an A from their teacher!!! lol!!

However, I will caution LBSs. Dwelling on the lies that WASs tell is a fool's game.There is a reason we tell LBSs "Believe NOTHING they say. And only half of what they do."

Oh totally agree. I remember reading this quote for the first time. and then I kept seeing it to be true again and again...I've realized that all the words are seriously BS. plus the story always changes and when you lay everything out it's all so contradictory.


may22 - I'm right there with ya on working on detachment. If I were you I'd be less friendly knowing that he's still very likely in contact with OW. It sounds like you guys are interacting a lot.

also I wouldn't focus on his wrongs just because that would brew resentment. and it's just not healthy for you. and it means you're still very attached to him/his terrible qualities/what he did...etc. I mean, what could be a worse quality for a WAS other than the fact that they walked away? I feel like what helps me with detachment is constantly telling myself that I cannot fix him. accepting the fact that I don't have control over him. I don't know, I'm still working on this myself. don't know if that was any help to you...ha.

[may22]

Rosy... thank you... though I don't feel strong at all. A big part of me feels like if I were strong I would have booted him out long ago. But I just can't do that to my kids.

Steve/Woosa, totally on board about the lying. It is just so difficult to reconcile the person I *know* he was with the things that he's doing, and the lies are just an example of that. It also makes me feel depressed about the future, no matter what happens. Like once a liar/cheater, always a liar/cheater... what am I doing? On the other hand, I know he's struggling, confused, scared, etc and I understand where the lies are coming from. In any case, removing myself from caring too much about what he says and not taking anything at face value does help towards detachment.

Woosa-- on the friendliness--I have been going back and forth on this a lot. For my H, friendliness on my part and responding to his bids have had a positive impact on his behavior, whereas if I get more standoffish he really withdraws. I feel like if he took that next step, like moving down to the basement or out of the house, I would be 100% ready to significantly decrease friendly contact-- but for now I'm still working on treating him like a "beloved houseguest" (my coach's recommendation).

What I've been trying to do is just get out of the house more to GAL so that I'm not around as much, to not suggest time together or push on anything, but to be friendly if he initiates interactions. Like for instance last night I took the kids to a movie, he went to drinks with a friend. The kids and I were sitting down to dinner at a restaurant when he texted me "dinner?" I said he was welcome to join us, we'd just sat down, he said no worries as he was thinking of a specific place he wanted to go and was just seeing if we wanted to join him. He went to his restaurant and we ate at ours, but he proceeded to text me throughout the dinner, sending pictures of his food, links to interesting news items, asking how the kids were doing, etc. I responded (to all but the news item).

At home, I almost always sit on a certain part of the couch with my laptop/phone/book after the kids go to bed-- sometimes we watch a show, sometimes we talk or have a beer, sometimes we both do work or read. Right around/after the first BD (the ILBY BD, before I knew about the EA) he would barely talk to me and would sit in his office to do work, or plop down on the couch and turn on the TV without saying a word to me. Now, he is just as likely to do work out on the couch next to me, ask me what I want to watch or if it is OK if he watches whatever. Last night he initiated a fairly deep conversation -- asked me how I was feeling about my mom since there were some major areas of tension during my parents' visit.

Focusing on his wrongs helps me to be angry which *feels* like a potential path to detachment? But maybe is not? I have tried to think back to breakups with serious BFs I had before H. One cheated on me with his ex and I kicked him to the curb immediately. I was devastated but focused on what an a-hole he was and that really helped me get over him. This is such a different situation especially with the children-- and the ex BF was a broken person with serious issues that caused him to act the way he did-- but H is the father of my kids and no matter what will always be in my life and someone important to me and my children. So finding that route of loving detachment is my goal. The mantra of I cannot fix him, I did not break him (haha even though he says I did b/c of the sex situation), and I cannot control him, only myself HAS been a really helpful one for me. It just isn't getting me quite there quite yet.