Cross countries separation EU

[AnotherStander]

Paco, I don't think you're being unreasonable wanting to see the kids more often than every two weeks. However, when dealing with an uncooperative WAS you've got to get everything in writing and then stick to that written agreement. It sounds like you have some kind of agreement that you get them every other weekend? If you want to see them more often than that then it needs to be in the agreement. Is your agreement written or verbal? If verbal, then draw up a written agreement with the help of a lawyer. When it comes to kids, forget DB'ing and fight for as much visitation as possible, even if that means hiring a lawyer and playing hardball.

[Pack_19]

Hi all!

Thanks a lot for your comments! We do have a written agreement. When this all begun she threatened me in bad ways and even though I offered her to take some time in Spain she said this was no time but proper end of our M and I signed the agreement hoping it was the only path for R. At some point before leaving Germany she even took and hid the passports of our 2 children and that made me feel horrible (somehow I thought my W believes I am crazy to kidnap my own children, how is this possible?)

I am insisting on seeing them but all I get is replies like "I cannot make it work", "You are selfish and is my turn"...

I also have more doubts on my 180 and GAL. I was emotionally absent at home, I focused at work and missed my role as the lead of my M and family. She can see me upbeat and happy and being a good listener but if there is no communication how on earth is she supposed to see it. We talk strictly about the children and only in written form. When I have a breakdown and end up crying I think it is too soon (is only been 1.5 months since W left) and I remember the LRT, the lighthouse story and the support from all the people in this forum to get back on track.

I know the changes are for me, to be a better person. I was nervous and irritable at home, who wants to be around that? But I am spending a month closer to them and she keeps pushing me away. I have been focusing so much on creating a communication bridge that I am only getting frustration and pain. She has told me I am buying the love of S1 and S6 or that I am only the fun dad. My reply was "I want to be a full time father next to you but this is how our situation stands right now".

The worst feeling comes when I think about her dividing our assets and creating this new life without me. I know only attraction will get her back to consider R but how do you attract a person that is outside of your life?

I dont have many updates, GAL + 180 + being the best father I have ever been. This is the hardest trial I have ever endured and somehow I am confident and optimistic.

Thanks a lot for all the help!

[Pack_19]

hi all,

I was feeling so bad today I wrote to my W asking if we should get external objective help to piece. Maaaaaassive step back, what needs to be the mindset to let her go and truly stop pursuing?

LRT, LRT & LRT

[SteveLW]

hi all,

I was feeling so bad today I wrote to my W asking if we should get external objective help to piece. Maaaaaassive step back, what needs to be the mindset to let her go and truly stop pursuing?

LRT, LRT & LRT

The mindset needs to be that pursuit and pressure have almost no chance of actually working. Ever. Until LBSs get that (and usually it is way too late), they can't seem to help themselves with this kind of action.

You know how you feel the moment after you sent the message? Try to remember that feeling BEFORE you send another message like that.

[Pack_19]

Hi Steve!

Thanks a lot for the quick reply. Its been only one month and a half since she left, hopefully not too late to start a proper LRT now. I do feel like an idiot following cheeseless tunnels, I will remember it next time!

Thanks a lot!

[Pack_19]

hi all,

I forgot to mention. I know with Christmas a very sentimental time of the year is coming up. I want to suggest we attend Retrouvaille before and big D comes along. As part of no pressure, I know I cannot bring this up but I want out of my heart to make her aware there is such a workshop available in our country, am I crazy for wanting that? Is there a way I could sincerely bring it up?

Thanks a lot guys, as I said W keeps ignoring me and has told me she wants to speak to me only about our children.

[SteveLW]

hi all,

I forgot to mention. I know with Christmas a very sentimental time of the year is coming up. I want to suggest we attend Retrouvaille before and big D comes along. As part of no pressure, I know I cannot bring this up but I want out of my heart to make her aware there is such a workshop available in our country, am I crazy for wanting that? Is there a way I could sincerely bring it up?

Thanks a lot guys, as I said W keeps ignoring me and has told me she wants to speak to me only about our children.

The only way I would advocate for you mentioning it is IF...IF she makes any move or statement suggesting she may be open to Ring. But for you just to bring it up out of the blue makes it have zero chance of actually happening.

[sandi2]

How did your W feel about the move to Germany? Was she emotionally close to her family, and do they live in Spain?

Did your W stay home with your young children while in Germany, or was she employed? I am thinking of how I would have managed emotionally if I moved to a country where I did not know their language. Especially while taking care of two children, I would have felt vulnerable to the surroundings. Did she make friends in Germany? It's important that a young mother have emotional support from other married women/mothers. These questions are not placing blame at you. It's my way of getting a better view of the sitch, and maybe say something that is informative.

As a young husband and father, you did what most responsible men do. Being a great provider is one way men show their love for their family. The problem is when all his time/energy is spent working, and his W does not get one on one time with him. She needs their shared time with the children, but she is desperate to have private time where all of his attention is on her. Once your MR reconciles, you will be able to correct your mistake, and give her the intimate attention/time she needs. Unfortunately, she does not want it at this time.

I have managed to find the way to move back to Spain (Madrid or remotely from Seville) because as you can imagine I am 200% up for saving my marriage and family.

That's great! Just remember, however, she does not feel the same. Men tend to think they can control how their W feels or thinks, and that's not the case. You may be able to influence her, indirectly, but while separated it's best that you don't put emotional pressure on her to change her mind. If I'm not making sense, please ask questions.

It’s been only a month after separation, I have read DB almost twice now, I started GAL about 2 weeks ago (opera, sports, lost weight, good eating, out with friends, museums, tones of books, good music and plans with my children when I am in Spain every two weeks)

Great GAL activity!

but my big question is how is my W ever going to notice change if we are in different countries and all she will speak to me about is expenses from our children and via email.

What does it have to do with your activity? Are you doing all these things to get her to notice you? If so, your motivation may lose steam. I encourage you to do these things b/c you want to be a more attractive and more interesting man. Do things b/c you enjoy it, not just to impress her. It's only been two weeks, but eventually, she'll probably take notice. That doesn't mean she will act on it in any particular way. Your job is not to point out your GAL to her. Men who point this out for his W to notice, are so obvious......and that is unattractive. So, be cool.

After our separation, I know she still seeks divorce and the last time we spoke on the phone she told me I should be as far as possible from her, we could never be happy together, she blamed me for all that is happening and the effect it is having in our children and she shouted that she does not want to speak to me before hanging up. It is taking all my strength and faith to stay positive, visualize the man I want to be before every interaction with her, being that man and loving her despite all the blows (I believe I have made many selfish mistakes before and is time to look down and show true love).

Visualizing what kind of man you want to be, is great. Depending on her responses to validate that man, is not exactly healthy at this time.....b/c she is not in a positive place. Trying to get her to give you another chance to be the H she wanted, will not have positive results, at this time. I will say it harshly. She does not feel the love for you, like you feel for her. You cannot make her love you. You've got to give her time and space. In other words, you don't try to make your presence known through phone calls, texts, dropping by the house, etc. That is not giving her space from you.

Here's the problem about you showing your true love for your estranged W. She is not receptive to your love at this time. She is angry and wants nothing to do with you. Therefore, anything you do that even hints that you want to be with her........is going to cause a bad reaction from her. I understand that you want another chance to prove how much you love her, but at the moment, you have to resist the urge to "prove" it to her. You will have to quietly love her from a distance, instead of steamrolling her with "loving acts".

This is not the same girl you once dated, and married. You can't pursue her, b/c it only pushes her away. Perhaps it doesn't make sense, but that's b/c you still think of her as your loving wife, who you neglected. You see the mistakes you made and you are gungho to be the husband she wanted. But she is no longer interested in being your W. She feels the M died, and chasing after her is not going to change how she feels. Legally, she is still your W, but emotionally.......she has divorced herself from you. She has fired you as her H. Therefore, if you do any type of interaction that puts 1% emotional pressure on her........she is going to react very badly. She has made it clear that she does not want to see you or talk to you on the phone. If you try to go through the kids, or trick her, you are pressuring her. Do you see what I mean? She is not waiting around, hoping you will go sweep her off her feet. She feels quite the opposite. I am not saying this to hurt you or cause you to give up all hope of getting your family back. I am telling you to give up the pursuing methods, b/c they don't work on a W who feels done with you. Therefore, you need to leave her alone, and give her lots of space and time to get over her anger & pain.

I'm not suggesting that you leave the kids alone. You have as much right to the kids, as she does. Don't use the kids as your excuse when you are really wanting to interact with her. Know what I mean? We can advise you what to do, or not do, as we go along in the thread. So, I hope you will check with the board, before you decide to try something.

As one of my try new things I was thinking about sending her the DB book as a Christmas gift saying something along the lines of only read it if you freely feel like it.

This is an example of putting emotional pressure on her. She has made it clear that the MR is over, for her. Right? Yet, here you are sending her a book about busing a divorce. That's not what she wants, Paco. And besides, that book is like your box of tools. They are for YOU, not her. She is not going to have the same feelings and mindset that you have.

I do not want to control her by doing this,

But it is a controlling action. Just b/c you add a little note about only read if she wants, does not take away the control feature. You must learn to see this about yourself. Every time you use a control feature, you are digging the marital grave deeper. It is not your job or responsibility to fix your W. That concept is probably hard to digest, but please try.

I feel she needs to know the concepts in DB

No, YOU need to learn the concepts of DB. It is not your job to decide what she should learn, think, feel, or do. She's fired you.

she is only surrounding herself with people that support separation (oh! this person or that one got separated and took the kids to a psychologist, you will be fine or you deserve to be happy and you are so young) and I think this is really hurting our potential future, if there is any. She for example has created this support circle with her cousin who recently cancelled her wedding to a cheating boyfriend because she realized she was not truly in love and I cannot believe situations are comparable at any level.

I hate to hear that ^^^^^, and it's unfortunate. However, you can do nothing about it. She is free to choose who she wants to have as her support. If you try to convince her that the cousin is a negative influence, your W will push you further away. I'm not saying you have to condone what she does or who she spends time with, I'm just saying that you have to let go of controlling behavior. If you express your opinions about her friends, or anything else about her life.......she will buckle down and do more damage, out of spite toward you. So, you have to step back and stop advising her, or expressing your opinions.

Currently, your W wants one thing. It is freedom. She wants to experience life without you sticking your nose into her personal business. It makes it difficult for the LBH who wants to save his M. It's hard to watch someone you love make bad choices, and do things that could leave emotional scars on the children. I'm so sorry for your family. This journey is not fun, and things will likely get worse before you start to see a positive turn. She has to experience some things, before she'll be ready to reconcile. This situation is not all about you. Oh, she may blame you for everything, but I suspect you were not 100% responsible for the breakdown in the MR. I think she was very unhappy where she lived, and unhappy in her MR. I don't think she made the decision to separate in order to work on the MR. I think she did it, to escape. So, she has to figure out things for herself.

That brings me to the close of your first post.

[sandi2]

I am starting my 180 yesterday but I have a big question about going dark. My problem has been I immersed myself on career and providing for a better school and house and totally neglected my marriage, it almost feels like I need to change into loving, through actions, but my W is still on fire and would not even stand me over the phone. Do you have any recommendations on this? Thanks a lot, I will read through all material today! Cant wait!

When a couple is separated, the H cannot do a lot of things he could do if they lived together. He can learn a lot about relationships/marriage, but he won't be able to act on some things, due to the separation. For example, the book on love languages is fantastic information. However, you have to use caution as to when you try to speak in your W's LL. Currently, she's not receptive to you, and just b/c you want to try this new thing out.........doesn't mean it will work like a charm to win her over. I think you should study the LL book a long time, before trying it on her. I can't warn you enough about jumping from one thing to another......in search of the magical formula that gets your W back. There are a lot of good books on the market that you could use this time alone to read. Then when you are together again, you will be a lot smarter. You need to focus on your own growth, goals, and changes. Take your main focus off your W, and the things you think she should know. Just work on Paco.

We do have a written agreement. When this all begun she threatened me in bad ways and even though I offered her to take some time in Spain she said this was no time but proper end of our M and I signed the agreement hoping it was the only path for R. At some point before leaving Germany she even took and hid the passports of our 2 children and that made me feel horrible (somehow I thought my W believes I am crazy to kidnap my own children, how is this possible?)

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that you thought she was going to just take a little time in Spain, and then come back? Did she trick you into a separation?

What kind of agreement did you sign?

What bad things did she threaten to do?

Estranged spouses "kidnap" their children and flee to other countries, to prevent the other spouse having them. Did you ever threaten to take the kids and go where she couldn't find them or get them back? Maybe she was paranoid? Is that why she gets so upset when you've had the kids a few days? I don't know, I'm just trying to understand what is really going on.

[Pack_19]

Hi Sandi,

Wow thanks a lot for spending so much time in my posts. I am not sure how to thank you! I guess ciberhugs!

I am really working on my changes for them to be permanent and make me a better man, I am also as you can imagine and read struggling with patience and no pursuing behavior. Exercising and eating well are really helping me on that sense.

So I suggested she moves to Spain and even with the children and then I come over, find a way to conciliate with work and discuss about her feelings. If on the same situation, we could then separate. She answered then it was not a couple's time, it was the end of our M and she had to do it properly and legally.

I signed an agreement where I visit every 15 days, I stay in Germany and then I provide a generous pension because she has taken school lunch of the standard and I contribute half the cost on top of the pension amount. As I said it is a bad agreement for me and the kids, now she does not want my parents to pick up the kids if I am not there and other ugly things. I have found a layer and with the reason of my job change I can push to change the agreement and not confirm it. I have told the lawyer I want to R and I only want a separation with better conditions for me and my family wrt the children. Just to give you another example, I have been in Seville for 2 weeks and she wouldnt let me see them for 30 mins when it is not my weekend. I want to change the agreement, we have to change it but I do not want to make it as if this is war.

I was proud of our life in Germany, after reading your first paragraph turns out I neglected a bunch of important things for her (we did have friends but all 10 to 15 years older than us as we were early parents and we shared children the same age with them and she suffered missing family and friends and not coping with the language quite well). I asked for the separation to happen there, being confident I could revert the situation. However, after coming to spain for summer she came back convinced she had to start over in Spain and if I argued against that she told me she would:

> Sleep with the first guy she came across just to hurt me
> Set up a mediator to pass on children so I never saw her again
> There would be 0 chances of R
> She would fight to take the children away from me because I travel at work

I never threatened to take the children away, I told her we could come back to Spain and change our life but her answer was the problem was me not the location and she was not in love. She said she did not mean to hurt me but she was following feelings and she could not stay unhappy next to me forever. I want to think she still can love me and is acting out of anger and frustration but the way she is pushing me away from the children is make me doubt if there is a chance I can save my M no matter how much work I put on myself.

I am also very intrigued on what you can tell me about the things I heard from her:

> It is all your fault, you need to change and then I need to get to know you, like you, trust you and love you again. This is very unlikely
> Our marriage was never meant to happen, you never loved me
> I am only listening to my feelings, there is nothing wrong with that
> I have been telling you all along, it is impossible to hurt someone unintentionally so long

Truth is when we fought I used to leave confrontation when I was feeling attacked by her. We have had tonnes of communication problems I see now after reading DB and DR. I wake up some days also visualizing the R I want us to have, but as you mentioned it is out of the table now.

I know I can make her happy, I know I cannot force her, I know our M lies on her hands right now and I know our children are top priority for both of us. I tell myself, is been too short, stay strong and make changes permanent for yourself, be the best father no one has ever been but there are still days I find myself crying out of pain. Like my aunt said, I cry at home and go out with no tears left!

Thanks a lot Sandi, cannot wait to hear from you again.