I have an important question I want to ask. After spending a month in Spain there have been some good and bad interactions but I did not get the chance to talk to her privately. When I talked to her calmly and asked about this she claimed it was my fault because of my attitude and that I am putting pressure on her.
I read everyday the 37 rules and try to interiorize them and I need to leave her space and time. Yesterday I saw her to give the children back before I came back to Germany. I noticed she has tattooed a little triangle on her arm and I asked her since we always said we liked it but we would not mark our bodies forever. her answer was I do not know her at all.
She has not filed for divorce but we have to confirm the separation agreement next 4th February. As we spoke before I have requested the service of a second lawyer to change the agreement but she threatened me that if I do not do so I will not see the children as often as I am doing it now. I have a terrible internal struggle, I want to save my marriage so I want to avoid conflict with her but at the same time I will not reaffirm a separation agreement where the pension is unfair and my family does not get time with my children if I am not there with them. How am I supposed to approach this situation when I know it will lead to conflict but I do not want to start divorce and I want to transmit to her that I love her and that I want to fight for our marriage but not at any cost?
Please help me, I am feeling terrible. She has threatened me again saying I am harassing her and she has told me she hates to have a broken family but she cannot be happy with me. Eventually I left and I flew to Germany with a very sad spirit.
If she wants a kind and distant father, she will get one, a loving one but I have made the strong commitment to turn the 37 rules into my bible. I do not want this to turn into a conflict but she is vindictive. Both on christmas eve and new year I got no message from her, I guess this is normal but it did hurt.
I know the tattoo thing is tiny and stupid but it really got me as one of those things she is doing to get a life away from me, something she would never consider when with me. We had our first son when we were both 22, maybe she feels as if she has not lived through the crazy years, I dont know but she still gets me. It [censored] she has the ability to hurt me so much.
Something I have noticed as well is the way she talks to me. She gives me orders as in tell me when you are giving me back the children or come now or tell me when your next flight is. I try to be respectful and give her space and time but it scares me to death that my marriage might be over. I know I must accept is a possibility but after only 5 years, without getting any external help or talking to the family, it really feels as if we do need a second chance. I dont know, maybe I see the good memories or see the way my children are being affected by this and I want to put an end to it too soon when my focus should be on permanent change and no MR / R talk ever. What a nice new year resolution, to implement LRT properly, because my marriage depends on it!
Hopefully, as Michele states it, she does not know that one day she will join forces in the fight for our marriage. All people keep telling me to give up and take my marriage as dead. It is hard not to agree with them after the way she is behaving but I am on my own path, GAL and no pursue at all.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Me 29 W:29 M: 5yrs T:10yrs S:6 yrs S:1 yr BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19 Sep: 10/27/19
Your MR is over. Sorry to be blunt Paco, but you seem to be in denial about that one, simple fact.
Even if you end up back together, it has to be in MR 2.0, with a new dynamic. So you need to start thinking about it in those terms. Your M is over.
Now, some good news. D doesn't mean no R (AS and I just had this conversation with another poster!) Sometimes D has to happen for R to occur later. Maybe R will never occur. All of that is OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. So stop trying to control that.
So let deal with this question:
"How am I supposed to approach this situation when I know it will lead to conflict but I do not want to start divorce and I want to transmit to her that I love her and that I want to fight for our marriage but not at any cost?"
First, why are you afraid of D? Fear is never going to help you move forward. And you speak about all of these things as if they are mutually-exclusive. They are not.
You can fight for a better separation agreement. First, hire a lawyer. These are legal proceedings and you need an expert to guide through it. Take the agreement to a good D attorney, and let them craft an agreement from it that you can live with. Then have your lawyer send it to her. With an official agreement from a law firm it will carry more weight.
Second, in any interaction involving the kids (drop off, pick up, communications about drop off and pick up) be upbeat. Kind. Pleased. Content. That is how you show her you are changing. That is how you "transmit love". You also transmit love by giving her the space she wants. At this point you should be No Contact. I know your next question is "what about the kids?" NC means no contact UNLESS it is about the kids.
Here is how it works:
All communication you initiate is about the kids...and the kids only.
If she initiates contact about the kids, engage. If she initiates contact not about the kids, you listen and validate (if verbal).
If she texts or uses written communication and it isn't about the kids, you do not respond unless it is a direct question. If it is a question you answer in your own time (not right away), and then in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions should get yes or no answers. If they are difficult questions like "Did you sign the separation agreement yet?" you redirect. "Sorry, been really busy. I will need some time to digest the agreement before I respond."
You have to drop your fear of D, start handling her in a business like manner, and only engage her when it is about the kids, and even then do so business like.
Paco, if you want to save your marriage you have to STOP trying to save your marriage. See this thread:
Thanks a lot for the reply! Yes, I am scared, I get all this social pressure from most of the people around me that when a woman has made this strong decision it is forever, I have had lawyers, therapists, family and common friends telling me to get over it and go on with my life as this is final.
Now I know I cannot be scared, between fear and hope I have chosen the second. But yes with all the pressure in my head I fear D, I have days when I feel like an idiot for fighting for my marriage. Everyone says, the longer you let her have a life without you, the more she will move on from you. I even have people telling me they have seen her with someone. She has been living there for 2 months and as we separated she told me I was the problem, I had to change and she wanted to be alone. My sick mind is playing tricks on me, but anytime these thoughts come I replace them with thoughts about me being a good man, my ability to change and my ability to have this 2.0 M that you speak about.
I started reading DR for the 3rd time yesterday and it amazes me how I continue to find new concepts there. The book is an oasis in the middle of this situation, to tell me what to control and what to change.
I have already hired a lawyer, my 180 is going to be to be happier, a better christian and a better man on every aspects of my life and also to stop any conversation outside the children. you are absolutely right Steve, my M where I neglected my W and I made her feel like she was not the number one priority in my life is dead and for the better. thanks a lot
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Me 29 W:29 M: 5yrs T:10yrs S:6 yrs S:1 yr BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19 Sep: 10/27/19
After spending a month in Spain there have been some good and bad interactions but I did not get the chance to talk to her privately. When I talked to her calmly and asked about this she claimed it was my fault because of my attitude and that I am putting pressure on her.
Paco, when a wife (and mother of his kids) leaves him, it is not b/c she wants him to pursue her. Ever since your W moved away from you, you have chased after her. Separation is not an opportunity to pursue. Can you understand that you must give her time away from you? You are not detaching yourself. You contact her all the time, and you use your children as an excuse to talk to her. You are hurting your chances to reconcile, b/c you refuse to leave her alone. Stop talking to her!
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How am I supposed to approach this situation when I know it will lead to conflict but I do not want to start divorce and I want to transmit to her that I love her and that I want to fight for our marriage but not at any cost?
First, you do what is right. I don't know your laws, but I suggest you trust your lawyer to get as much time with your children as is "fair". Allow the lawyer to fight this battle, and stop putting pressure on your W. I cannot stress enough how unattractive it makes the H look. Take one task at a time. I don't think you can save your MR at the moment, while trying to fight to have the kids see your family as much as they see her family. Neither will it save your MR to let her have everything and you don't get to see your kids. So, listen to your lawyer, do the fair thing, and stop talking to her. If you must connect about children's visitation, only do so in an email. No texting, no calling. Stop trying to catch her to talk privately. Why do you think this is working? She doesn't want to be around you, Paco. You are making things worse, b/c you will not leave her alone. Please follow the advice in the book, and on the board.
I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I will say this......so maybe you will change, if it is true. I get the feeling that you don't listen very well to your W. Perhaps you have a dismissive attitude when she is trying to respond. Maybe you insert the things you want to say while she is speaking. Does your voice tend to get stronger as you speak to her? Frustration can cause our voices to sound angry. Some men have powerful voices. I'm not taking sides with either you or her. I'm simply trying to help. As a woman, I think the more you try to do what you consider "saving the marriage", the more damage you cause at this time. I understand that you don't want a divorce. You need to be respectful of her feelings. I wonder if she feels she's not being heard by you. You don't have to express your disagreement about her feelings. Sometimes, it could sound as if you invalidate her feelings, when you are trying to get her to see your way. I'm not saying you have to agree with her feelings, but they are her feelings. I doubt that she cares about your feelings, if you over-ride what she tries to express. Understand? I hope I am wrong, but sometimes I have a mental image of her being badgered into changing her decision. Even if she was pressured so strongly that she changed her decision.......it would not change her heart. Give her time apart from you talking to her. I don't mean days.......I mean weeks, even months. Yes, it hurts you, but your current and previous actions have only pushed her further away.
Don't put your kids in the middle, thinking their sadness and their desire to be with their dad will change her mind. I think you use them. Maybe not with bad intentions, but to make her feel guilty for tearing the family apart. It doesn't work, Paco. You can't make someone love you, especially this way. When we tell you that you need to change, that's exactly what we mean. It doesn't mean you are suppose to pressure her to change.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks a lot for the long reply. You are absolutely right, you are the only people who truly understand my situation and I have not done a good job listening to you. At the beginning I was always thinking of my W as the loving W I neglected. I have this strong conviction that she still loves me and this is what has driven me in many occasions to ask for a walk, or a coffee. How stupid I have been.
When I talk to her I try to listen and validate her feelings. Sometimes my voice catches a sad tone and she is quick to remind me how unattractive that is to her so I force myself to be calm and speak with strength. I never shout or interrupt her but she still saying things that I try to filter as hard as I can but sometimes still get me. Just the other day she said I was to blame for all that has happened (again) and that our family was broken forever. When I am alone at home I think, talking to her, even for validation, is a torture, why dont I just avoid it and give her more time?
At some point in my life I was very attractive, I have always been very good at uni/work, I love sports, I am a chatbox and I love going out and dancing. I look at myself in the mirror and I think, how can I get clingy and begging when I am in front of her? why do I allow her to tell me that she is sad for me but sure she has no feelings?
I will say this with my hurt, I do not try to use my children I just thought if there is a path to R is going to be through family activities and because of that I have put pressure on her with such plans. Again, mistake after mistake.
Just yesterday to finish what I thought was a great conversation by email she reminded me how on the 4th of Feb we are supposed to confirm the separation agreement in front of the judge. I calmly answered, "thanks for reminding me W, I wish you a nice day". She always brings that statement or attitude that reads "our marriage is dead" in big capital letters.
I guess I owe you (specially Sandi, Steve and FS) a big apology. You are the biggest help I have on times when my environment only tells me to move on and acknowledge a woman who has made this decision will firmly stick to it, and I have not listened to you as I should have. As I said on my last post, I am reading DR for the 3rd time, but this time I am making the concepts mine, for the better.
I know my 180 is going to be showing a happy and polite person when I exchange the kids AND being the first one to say goodbye. I want to ask, since I read yesterday about being surprising. What else can I do to catch her by surprise? what does she not expect? Would it be fine to make an innocent joke about her?
I have not listened to her because I was scared, I was scared to lose her, to end up in D, to bear the pain of seeing her with someone else, to miss the childhood of our baby. I never stopped to say, hey, remember that charming man you have always been? bring him back and be the greener grass. When my W said, I do not want to talk to you, I heard our marriage is over and my instinct was to act as if replying "no, not until I decide it is". I can only give her the best incentive to come back and I know that is only going to happen if I truly listen to her and you all.
Since this nightmare began, it has been 3 entire days now that I do not write to her. I never spy on her newly created IG with a new username and I have made a strong decision to not suggest more family plans as in I will be in the park feel free to join. I was reading the chapter about cheese-less tunnels and thinking, my God, this is so me.
I wish my W knew I now have a lot of new tools I am learning from you, I wish she knew I know R is slow, hard and only towards MR 2.0 but it is not my job to tell her. Let's hope one day she will see it. Please keep posting here, you guys are my oxygen. I will do the same, I am taking stage now and I need to monitor if my 180 works. If it doesnt, I will need help with new ideas!
thanks a lot! Paco
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Me 29 W:29 M: 5yrs T:10yrs S:6 yrs S:1 yr BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19 Sep: 10/27/19
I am having a rough day today and really needed to come back here. It has been 6 days that I have maintained radio silence with my W except to talk to our children and not much has changed. She is still cold and limits our interactions to our S6 picking up and hanging up the phone to me.
I know it is a very short time and I need to stay strong but sometimes I have this big urge to listen to her voice or try to ask her how her day is going. When this happens I either go out for a run, dinner or grab DR and re-read chapters 5 and 6. I am much better when out with people and I am making a great effort to push my social life again but I still struggle to sleep peacefully and still have those terrible low moments when you can only cry in the shower.
Next week I will be in Chicago for work and I guess it will really help me get some fresh air and be away from my thoughts. I think about our last interaction and I feel great shame. I ended up asking my W if she was seeing someone or there was a chance I could get us back on track, she must truly think I am a [censored]. I have promised myself there won't be more of those low moments in front of her.
It is incredible how eating better, giving up alcohol and exercising can change your mood and attitude. When I talk to people I also find myself thinking about giving them full attention, following up with their messages and understanding what I can say to show I am interested and keep the conversation going. This is new to me and feels great, only sometimes I still find myself thinking in the old ways (what is the next thing I am going to say) but even then I identify it and think ok I just made one of my typical mistakes.
I know I have asked you all this a million times, but my W being in the state that she is towards me and the whole fight for the separation agreement coming up has me extremely worried. Even I was to see signs of her softening after I stopped smothering her, the plan is to go on, let the lawyer fight this fight for me right?
Every time I read DR I feel like I get more superpowers to fight for our M. As days go by I think less about what might she be doing or thinking but at the same time I think more and more about the new relationship I would like to develop with her. I feel really alone, I have got into the habit of calling my dad almost daily and I am rediscovering my love for him.
If you successfully implement a 180 and it does lead to a baby step, how long does it usually take? Michele talks about 2 weeks but I am not even going to see my W in the next 2 weeks.
Thank you all!
Paco
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Me 29 W:29 M: 5yrs T:10yrs S:6 yrs S:1 yr BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19 Sep: 10/27/19
Hey Paco, just forget about time. It´s not easy, I know, but it´s an exercise you need to daily improve. Keep your own inner work and keep DB rules at sight: detach some more.
Use adversity in your favour, keep dark except for the children.
You need patience, BE pacient. It takes time for you, it takes time for her. How much? Who knows. All you know is you can´t sit waiting for it.
Stand strong there Paco.
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
Hi all! I am having a great week at work but an awful week with my DB. As you can imagine my W keeps being as cold and distant as she has been since she dropped the D bomb. I guess you guys are the only ones who can imagine how discouraging this is. I have met all these people from the office in Madrid that are great and socially is like I feel alive again, maybe you also know what I mean. I talk to new people, went to a big fat party yesterday and have began to laugh again regularly (sometimes I think how long before I start crying again like a little boy on of my private breakdows).
When I video call my children she disappears, puts them in a room and she is gone. She wrote to me about talking to my S the other day and I tried to get a friendly conversation on how the week was going. No answer and back to no talking to her. I have had days this week when I am starting to think seriously my M might be over forever. I am full of hope and optimism but it is such a dark time when you let those thoughts get a grasp on you. I have been reading about building back trust and the 5 love languages but it feels if she wont even look at me in the eyes, if she truly cannot stand seeing me, it is not the time for this.
I thought by the time we will be 3 months into living apart she would start to warm up towards me, how idiot I was. I have also tried to offer her my help in any children related issue but she keeps rejecting any interaction with me. I have been selfish, focused on money making and I lacked a lot as a husband but I have this deep belief I can and will eventually make it up to her. How sad for us and our family if she decided to remain cold for long enough to convince herself there is solution to our problems.
I am much more positive, practicing active listening and being humble but I am still living hell. There is no rush, I know the waiting will be worth it and I know permanent change takes time and effort. It is just that I read DR and apply the techniques (it has been over a week with no contact and LRT) and I wish I had that small feedback sign that tells me she is starting to slow down or at least noticing. I care about us so much I would wait years if that is what it takes, I cant help thinking why I have to put all the effort when she has beheaded our R.
I miss talking to her, having her when I come back home, seeing her cook with the children and the way she knows me better than anyone. I needed to tell someone that and I am sure my friends dont want to hear it. Thanks a lot guys!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Me 29 W:29 M: 5yrs T:10yrs S:6 yrs S:1 yr BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19 Sep: 10/27/19
Firstly, hugs. My heart goes out to you. Secondly, three months is nothing. Do not expect too much from her or you. This process is long and hard, and in the end there is no guarantee. AS wrote a really useful timeline a long time ago which might be useful for you. If anyone has the link, could the paste here please. The takeaways (from memory) is that our spouses do start coming around, but they might never admit it, and even then, most LBS have already rebuilt their lives and are quite fine without them, thank you very much.
I've followed you through your sitch and you are getting some really good advice which I'll repeat here:
1. Your marriage is over. You need to accept that. This doesn't mean go out and sc**w the first woman who shows interest in you, but it does mean you have to start building a life without her. Base your plans on you and your children. Her needs are no longer your needs. Your decisions shouldn't be about "will this make her want to come back" but be about "is this best for me and my children 2. Stop all expectations - if you offer to help and she declines the offer, then she declines the offer. End of. 3. Stop ruminating on what if's, why's and the things you've lost. It is not helpful to you at the moment. 4. You are trying to show her your 180's. Trust me, she notices, but right now, she thinks it is all a ruse which makes her more resentful. This doesn't mean stop doing them. 180's are for you, not her.
There is a phrase over here that kind of fits well with your sitch ... "can do no right". This means no matter what you do she is of the mind frame that turns your actions/words into a negative. Ask for more time with the kids, you're hassling her, don't ask for more time with the kids, you're a neglectful father. If everything you do is wrong in her eyes, then you do what is right for you and the children.
Things that I think will have a positive impact on you (and are within your control). Take or leave as you will:
1. Meditation (will help with anxiety and letting go) 2. Gratitude journal (or even just listing out each evening things that happened that day that you are grateful for) 3. Set your intention each day and start it anew. Today I will start a conversation with two strangers. Today I will go to the gym. Today I will try that new restaurant.
No contact means no contact. Childcare logistics and financials only. Factual, business like and abrupt. She does not want to hear about your day. So stop talking about it with her.
The other thing I would say is you put your wife and marriage on a pedestal. No-one is that perfect. Stop looking at her and you through rose tinted glasses.
I'm sorry if this is harsh. I don't mean it to be.
Great advice from FS Paco. You need to get busy. Ruminating and feeling sorry for yourself is not going to get you anywhere. Trust me. I know what you are going through. We all do. We’ve all been there. And most of us put off taking the advice on here because it was too hard and counterintuitive and very, very scary. And doing that only prolonged the nightmare we were living in. There IS life after your W. There IS!!! You just have to have faith and put all of your energy into getting YOU back. Stop worrying about what she is doing or not doing because you can bet she isn’t worrying or wondering about you. She doesn’t have to. She knows EXACTLY what you are doing and knows that you are most definitely Plan B. That is the WORST thing she can think about you as it leaves you solidly in limbo and her in the driver’s seat. Get back behind the wheel Paco!! (((HUGS)))
