[ScottB]

I would add that in yesterday’s conversation I took the criticism non defensively an listened with empathy. I really focused on being careful not to critique, to be aware of my emotions and hers and to keep them in check to stay out of non productive cycles. It was good that we could have a potentially charged conversation without escalation.

But all day long I’ve been trying to figure out how in the world she thinks I put myself ahead of her and the kids. I wish we had a rwfereree who could make these calls because i want to call extreme BS on that one.

[Pommy99]

I would add that in yesterday’s conversation I took the criticism non defensively an listened with empathy. I really focused on being careful not to critique, to be aware of my emotions and hers and to keep them in check to stay out of non productive cycles. It was good that we could have a potentially charged conversation without escalation.

But all day long I’ve been trying to figure out how in the world she thinks I put myself ahead of her and the kids. I wish we had a rwfereree who could make these calls because i want to call extreme BS on that one.

Scott, you and I are both in the same situation with WAS’ but equally what you say about your wife really resonates with me. H and I went through several bad years where I constantly felt I was priority 3/4/5 on his list. At the time I wouldn’t have really been able to articulate why I felt like that or exactly what he was doing wrong. Looking back now, I can see that I had lost all connection with myself, I was trapped in an identity called “mum”. My H abandoned me every week to work away - it might only have been 1-3 nights, but still I was left at home with 2 young children and a full time job. All the school pickups, docs appts, etc was left to me. When H got home he was tired from travelling, wanted to see his friends, go out on his bike for 6 hrs etc. Nowhere did I get scheduled in, and because the children were young we didn’t get much time together anyway. I threw myself into my kids - they gave me unconditional love, I didn’t have to fight for it. Do you have a similar setup? My H would ‘helpfully’ tell me to go and ride my bike or go shopping for the day, which he thought was what I wanted, to give me a break, but what I wanted was time with him (don’t think I realised that at the time because paradoxically I resented him and didn’t want to spend time with him). When I made noises about him sitting on the sofa while I was cleaning he’d jump to attention. Now I realise that I didn’t really want him to join me in “mum mode” , I wanted him to take me away from that and put me in wife mode! I wish he’d said “get your coat, we’re going for a drink”. I know that’s not easy with children. You do sound like you have a lot of interests and a demanding job, perhaps this is where GAL may backfire a little. She’s wanted you to put her first but now DB says not to. This is where you need to understand her needs-she probably doesn’t know herself, she’s possibly lost connection with herself. Does she have a fulfilling life outside of work/family?

[LH19]

Scotty B,

That's where validation is important. You could have 200 referees telling you that you are right but if that is not how she FEELS and that's all that is important to her.

Let me ask you a question. In the past and you asked for sex and she declined what was your reaction?

[SteveLW]

I would add that in yesterday’s conversation I took the criticism non defensively an listened with empathy. I really focused on being careful not to critique, to be aware of my emotions and hers and to keep them in check to stay out of non productive cycles. It was good that we could have a potentially charged conversation without escalation.

But all day long I’ve been trying to figure out how in the world she thinks I put myself ahead of her and the kids. I wish we had a rwfereree who could make these calls because i want to call extreme BS on that one.

Believe nothing she says, and only half of what she does. She is gaslighting you with the "you put yourself above me and the kids." More on this later.

WASs always blame the LBS. For everything. You have to learn to stop taking her words as daggers to the heart. Because when you do it shows in every action, reaction, facial expression, body language, and tone of voice. You may think you took the criticism non-defensively.....but did you really?

Scott, I have to be honest with you. This is what i see. You come to the board for advice. Get lots of good advice, then leave the board and do the exact opposite, then wonder why you feel like crap.

I like that you went to the gym. But why did you wait so late? GAL isn't waiting until you can fall asleep due to an interaction, and then go to the gym. Imagine if you had been at the gym earlier? Then the interaction never would have occurred. Which should be your goal each night! What can I do tonight to avoid an R talk?

Remember, NEVER initiate a R talk (which sounds like you did). And if she does, you listen and validate. "Oh, so I hear you saying that you feel that I am putting too high a priority on myself, and not on the kids and you." See that, you heard. Repeated. Showed that you understood her feelings. But what you didn't do is agree or disagree.

And what the heck was the "you don't care that I had a tough day!" bit? Let me ask you a question.......do you think that was attractive or unattractive to her? Scott, you have a WAW, maybe even a WW. You have to drop all expectations. Your W has had an EA, said and done things that show she is not into the MR, and yet you keep expecting her to be and do all the things that a loving, committed W is. We have a name for that around here: denial. You are in denial about how close to the end of your marriage you are right now. You even came here asking "can't I just tell her to snap out of it?" If that were how easy it were this forum wouldn't exist. MWD would be working in a different field and we wouldn't have books like DB and DR.

Here is the thing Scott: THERE IS NO MAGIC PILL. There is, as you said, patience. Long-suffering. Putting in the work. For you it is an easy formula: GAL. 180s (self-improvements). Detachment.

Right now you are failing on all three. You certainly aren't GAL like you should. Your goal should be to be busy. When you get home spend all of your home time with the kids. Otherwise you are out doing things. Gym. Hanging with buddies. Etc. You certainly are not sitting around with her having discussions that lead to cheeseless tunnels. 180s. You come here, get advice then go do the exact opposite of that advice. I have to assume that all this reading you are doing, you absorb, then turnaround and make no application to your life from the learnings. I mean, that is what you are doing with the advice here. And detachment. Wow, not even close. "you don't care that I had a tough day!" REALLY? Do you know how unhealthy it is for you to expect a woman that has fired you as her H to care about your day? Scott, you have to get to a place where you are emotionally and mentally even, no matter what her words or actions are.

And do not let her gaslighting you over the "you put yourself ahead of me and the kids" prevent you from GAL. When home, make it ALL about your kids. Put them first after God. Forget her for now. She has removed herself from your life. That is why her saying what she said is gaslighting. She is making you feel crazy. "I don't want you as my H anymore. Oh, and why are you putting yourself ahead of me?" See how illogical that is???

Now I am not saying all of this to hurt you. I am saying because I see hope in your situation. Your W is still there. She is checked out but she is still there. If you can turnaround your approach you have a good chance of saving your MR. Keep learning, but also apply what you learn to your actions! Become the best ScottB you can be. Become the spouse only a fool would leave.

But "you don't care that I had a tough day!" ain't it.....................

[ScottB]

Pommy: So it is interesting, earlier this year when I brought up that my wife had me low on the priority list her response was “that’s because you are always go to be here.” Similarly her priority list was Work, her Parents, Kids, me.
I don’t travel for work. I used to work 6a-6:30pm 5 days a week and 7a-1p on Saturdays. In November of 2014 I made some changes to work more traditional hours and when she went back to work in 2016 she through a lot on my plate so then I also had to make major changes. I began taking the kids to school daily which is at 8:40am. I began getting home closer to 5pm. I began making dinner about 60% of the time and more from there. Now in November she quit her job without anything lined up and she still wants me to make dinners, help out around the house, drive the kids to school and activities. She plays tennis twice a week and is working to change careers because she says that if she doesn’t work things don’t work for our family (she claims that I don’t respect her and she doesn’t have an equal say when she doesn’t work).
Like I said, I really wish a third party could witness this. I try to be very self-aware of the things I do and how I’m being “selfish” but I’m just not seeing it.

[ScottB]

LH: Good point. I would say the last time I asked for sex was in November of 2017 and she said yes and then later said she felt like I raped her. After that, I haven't asked since. She feels "pressured" because she believes I want to have sex and she feels like I keep track of how often we do it and when the last time was, which I guess I can do because it's like remembering how often and when you go to the dentist.

To your point, all that matters is what she thinks. 200 referees wouldn't matter, it would just make me feel better because I'm really trying and I want to be validated.

I can say this on the sex, I know she feels guilty about it. I also know that she has accused me of being mad about it.

[ScottB]

Steve85: You are 100% right. And I'm tied in knots. I'm angry, I'm growing resentful. I just think its BS on so many levels. I'm trying to hold it together.

I'm used to taking action. I've been dramatically more patient than I want to be, as can be seen from my first post. So I guess I cracked. Thank you for pointing it out.

I stayed in MC, against the advice of some on here, because my coach thought it was helping things. I just pulled out my notes from the last time we were at MC and what we were supposed to work on is the opposite of the forum, so I guess that's confusing.

The MC said to be more vulnerable, to share my feelings more and to validate her feelings. She also said to take more risks, and when our partner takes a risk, to ask questions, to be curious. She said to reach out to holly and initiate physical contact, nothing in the bedroom but a hug in the kitchen at random times.

My wife has said that we were spending a fortune on MC and that the time between appointments was such that we weren't getting through enough. I do believe I brought the conversation up though. I believe I asked if we should try to talk about our marriage - that was obviously a mistake and led to a bad place.

Also, the MC asked for us to both think through and be prepared to discuss our issues for the next time we are there.

This all feels like a stupid game, I'm not really into fake or BS. To do this right I feel like I need space. I'm in knots. I can't think about this anymore right now

[SteveLW]

Scott, MCs are usually classically trained. Pursuit. Pressure. Reconnecting. That is what they know and preach. And in marriage where both partners are committed ot the marriage, that can work. Your W is not committed to the marriage, so traditional MCing has very little chance of working. About the only positive I saw from MC in my own sitch was that it gave us a place to do the R talks, without me initiating them myself. That kept me from initiating R talks the other 167 hours each week. Our MC encouraged us to save the R talks for MC, where she could supervise, manage, and coach, in a safe place. But if you think you are going to go to MC, your W is going to hear what she needs, buy into the homework, and make an effort..........well, you will be disappointed.

I will leave the MC to you, since you have a feel for your own sitch better than any of us. But general guidance is that unless your WAS is committed to saving the MR, that it will benefit little. And since you already have issues with expectations, unless you ca drop them related to MC, it might set you back more than move you forward.

I see a lot of you in me. Trying each next new thing hoping for a miracle. Doing it for a few days and growing frustrated when it had no affect.

So I am going to encourage you in what worked for me. When I finally dropped all my expectations of her was when I started to DB well and started to see small signs of a turnaround. Think of it as EXPECTING her to NOT respond positively to anything you try. This helps you find the real strength of DBIng.....taking the focus off of her and putting it on to you.

That is what GAL is for. Right now your W feels like she is under a microscope. You are watching her in minute detail. "Oh, she actually winked at me..maybe things are better! Oh she didn't ask about my day, she hates me an wants nothing to do with me!" My W even described this dynamic as feeling like an animal in the zoo: I was watching her trying to learn her behavior. So when you go out and GAL, they don't feel like they are under a microscope. Try this for a week. Come home from work. Spend time with your kids, don't even interact with her except pleasantries. If she asks about your day "Oh it was okay." Things like that. After the kids are down for the night, go to the gym. Go hangout with a friend. Go to the shooting range. Go kick around a store. Try that for a week or two.

180s, take everything you are learning and apply it to become a better person. Work on your reactions. IE try not to react. Work on your demeanor. No sad or down or angry or resentful. Be upbeat. Pleased. Fulfilled. Happy even! (One thing that helped in my sitch is my W was being silly. Normally I'd ignore it. Or snap at her. Or in some other way show my disapproval. But I started repeating her silliness, to myself. And the said outloud, "That's funny!" and chuckled. My W literally turned to me. Stared at me, and said "Who are you?". The effect it had on her was profound! It was a real turning point in my sitch.)

And detachment is so key! Especially to the demeanor above. You can fake it, but eventually it becomes who you are! And guess what Scott, even if you turn your sitch around, you need to be detached in your marriage! Google: self-differentiation in marriage To me detachment, lovingly and healthily, also known as self-differentiation, is a key to happy, healthy, successful marriage. When identify too much as "so-and-so's husband" rather than our how individual that happens to be married to so-and-so, we lose who we are. We become caught up in looking to that person for our happiness and fulfillment. And NO ONE wants that kind of responsibility. Anyone would crack under the weight of responsibility for someone else's happiness. Love demands that you do not put that on your W.

In short, you need to focus on you! DB to save yourself. The side-effect might be that you save your marriage. (Notice, "might", there are no guaranees, and you should have no expectations).

[RVM]

Great reply Steve. That actually helps those of us who are in our very early stages of GALing & detachment.

[Pommy99]

That is what GAL is for. Right now your W feels like she is under a microscope. You are watching her in minute detail. "Oh, she actually winked at me..maybe things are better! Oh she didn't ask about my day, she hates me an wants nothing to do with me!" My W even described this dynamic as feeling like an animal in the zoo: I was watching her trying to learn her behavior. So when you go out and GAL, they don't feel like they are under a microscope. Try this for a week. Come home from work. Spend time with your kids, don't even interact with her except pleasantries. If she asks about your day "Oh it was okay." Things like that. After the kids are down for the night, go to the gym. Go hangout with a friend. Go to the shooting range. Go kick around a store. Try that for a week or two.

I am terrible at micro analysing everything, e.g “he said let’s buy a new bookshelf, nobody buys furniture if they’re leaving” kind of thing. It’s been so hard to learn not to do that. Shortly after I first found out about my H’s EA , he accidentally butt-dialled me one night from a bar when he was out with her. He said to her “I feel like I’m being watched”. ( Well no sh1t, Sherlock, you just butt dialled me for 10 mins!!) but he was right, I was watching his every move, picking up on every date/time/location/comment/facial expression. And it was unhealthy, I actually felt more in control when I stopped Thinking about the micro details and just relaxed a bit more. Thanks for spelling that Out Steve, never really thought of it from their POV.