Scout's QLC journey #3

[DnJ]

Hello scout

That is some powerful truth. It is good that you expelled that poison, it can eat away if not dealt with.

The DB principles are usually a tread softly approach. The underlying focus is really your healing; saving the relationship, if it happens, is the bonus part.

One tries to get to a place where they act on beliefs and thought rather than emotion.

I like seeing that you have your feeling of power back. I found that no one can steal someone’s power; we actually gave it away, and like you just did, we take it back.

I think it’s going to take some time for the dust to settle with H.

DnJ

[scout12]

Hey scout it sounds like you finally closed that chapter emotionally and I hope this gives you the power to keep going with your journey.

Thanks for the validation and constant support, DS. I feel stronger now. I'm a little worried about retaliation through the settlement, but will deal with that as it comes. He tested me this afternoon by dropping S1 off 30 minutes late. I didn't acknowledge it.

One tries to get to a place where they act on beliefs and thought rather than emotion.

I like seeing that you have your feeling of power back. I found that no one can steal someone’s power; we actually gave it away, and like you just did, we take it back.

I think it’s going to take some time for the dust to settle with H.

Hopefully you will be pleased to hear that I was pretty calm throughout. Lots of truth darts, but delivered with a calm, logical, neutral tone. I made my judgement clear, without being mean or nasty. In my opinion, anyway.

I did give my power away in my attempt to save the marriage. I reacted to the information (or lack thereof) I had at the time so I can't give myself too much grief, but I do feel a little foolish not knowing I was fighting with another woman for H's affections. At least I can say that I made every effort to rescue the marriage. Again, no regrets.

Regarding dust settling - do you mean between H and I? Or just with him? Today's conversation shows he hasn't budged on his stance. If anything, he has dug himself deeper into denial, blame and anger. I'm back to NC now, so hopefully S1 and I will be safe from the fallout if he self-destructs. My hope is that settlement proceeds as per our verbal agreement, but as I said to DS, he might now retaliate.

I read that Own's H intially agreed and then refused to sign for three years. I can't imagine how frustrating that would be. Hopefully the financial incentive for H to receive his share of settlement cash will convince him to sign.

[DnJ]

Good Morning scout

Hopefully you will be pleased to hear that I was pretty calm throughout. Lots of truth darts, but delivered with a calm, logical, neutral tone. I made my judgement clear, without being mean or nasty. In my opinion, anyway.

I am glad to hear you were calm. There is a much better chance of him actually listening than if delivered when highly emotional or angry.

You and H married and had a baby. You are navigating this life transition, H is not. He, for reasons probably buried in his childhood, is not coping with the responsibility of a family, a career, growing up, supporting others, etc... you know that adult stuff. He still wants video games, and that carefree existence of yesteryear. He cannot (accuracy: cannot not won’t) see the fulfillment that is possible in this stage of his life. So a new truck, an affair, etc... All of which didn’t assuage his insecurity and that hollow emptiness inside him. He needs to grow and learn to see.

You my girl are 29. Much life and experience still to learn. Heck, I’m 52 and have much ahead of me to learn and experience as well. Some of the very first advice was focus on you and S1. Your growth and journey is paramount.

I understand you judging H, really I do. However, don’t judge someone till you’ve walked a mile in their shoes. Imagine just how hurt and frightened he must be; and probably unrealized to himself; to throw away what he did.

Compassion scout. It may not change you path; it will change how you walk it. As I’ve said, everything is first and foremost for your healing and grow, restoring a R is a bonus.

You and I have much left to experience; probably new relationships are even in our futures. It could even be with our healed spouses, or not. The future is unknown and will reveal itself in time.

In your conversation with H he stated that he didn’t cheat. Said it five times.

A hard lesson to grasp is there is no absolute truth. It is very much in the eye of the beholder. H doesn’t feel he cheated. In his mind he was on a break, or the marriage was over, or whatever. Justification is powerful stuff. You going toe to toe against his reality just escalates things. No one can force someone to see the “truth”, they have to get to it on their own. All you can do is guide, and that doesn’t come from going toe to toe. Again, this is for you, not so much H.

Validating his point of view costs you nothing. It is not agreeing with his point of view, just acknowledging its validity; and it is valid to him. Validation of someone else’s view point and feelings shows personal growth and can smooth the growing chasm between you and H. He is S1’s Dad, and is probably going to be involved for some time; best to have a less confrontational relationship.

You did fire quite a few truth darts and received a volley back from H. Ensure you exam his darts and work on those that ring true.

Did you see how he withdrew during the conversation? The more you pressed the more he became defensive and protective. He is a hurt person.

I had a conversation with my XW two years ago which really illuminated just how damaged these people are. My XW is pretty far gone. Her dominate 18 year old personality was poking at me and flaunting. I lashed back about her affair, and she instantly become the 14 year old girl - shy, scared, confused. I stopped right away.

I had previously, during other times, continued pressing and she leaves the 14 year old and becomes a girl about 7 years of age. A young girl who can only preform mathematics at a seven year old level. Sees the world as a seven year old. Speaks like a seven year old. The innocence that she spoke with - eerie.

XW is usually the 18 year old rebellious teenager. She is currently fighting with her 17 year old daughter, just like two teens would. She is also a 14 year old and a seven year old. I haven’t seen or heard from the 49 year old woman for years now. Four different time periods and lives within one person. Just think of the damage to fracture someone that much.

I, my kids, and my best friend, have seen XW change, instantaneously, in the middle of a sentence and become one of her other selves. Then after a bit go right back to where she left off, in the middle of that sentence. It is so very strange to witness; almost unbelievable really. What can one do but be compassionate, understanding, and forgiving; she is living in her torment, I need not add to it.

Your conversation with H, it is said, and it needed to be. Now, where you go from here is within your control.

calm, logical, neutral

Go forward with that.

Perhaps add compassionate.

Regarding dust settling - do you mean between H and I? Or just with him?

Both. And a third.

H will most likely be wound up from this. He will takes some time to unwind.

You and H, as you are suspecting may have some further escalation in possible retaliation from H. Calm and logical better serves you.

The third is you. Detachment and indifference. Much settles when only one is stirring it up.

This all takes time. And you have the precious gift of time. Use it well.

DnJ

[OwnIt]

Scout, I've spent much time and many words worrying about the retaliation. I wish I could have the time and the worry back again. What I have learned is that when I show mine how to hurt me, he does it again and again. I would try not to let him know the things that really eat away at you. When you don't react as he hopes, the fun of doing them will cease and he will move on to something else. I've let mine continue to mess with logins to different sites and mention it to him every so often. I could care less. He's locked out of the ones I care about and he can keep thinking he is bothering me with the others. Stops him from doing the things I really care about (and keep very hidden from him).

[kml]

Just in case you have any doubts - when I discovered cold proof of my ex-husband’s affair on his laptop, he STILL tried to tell me he hadn’t cheated on me. (Yes, he had, and later he admitted it, she had gone with him to Hawaii on a business trip and much more....). It’s just a cowardly thing, not being able to admit to an affair when you’re caught.

You got it all out, that’s good, now stop. No need to have any further discussions with him about the relationship. It’s all business from here on out. He’ll try to suck you into arguments - be like a smooth stone, no edges he can grab. Don’t let him push buttons. The opposite of love isn’t anger, it’s indifference. Be indifferent.

[scout12]

I understand you judging H, really I do. However, don’t judge someone till you’ve walked a mile in their shoes. Imagine just how hurt and frightened he must be; and probably unrealized to himself; to throw away what he did.

Compassion scout. It may not change you path; it will change how you walk it. As I’ve said, everything is first and foremost for your healing and grow, restoring a R is a bonus.

This is making me think a lot. In the months following BD, I truly was able to set aside my own judgement and feelings to give H the breathing room he asked for. I felt an enormous amount of compassion and empathy (driven by guilt that I had hurt him so badly he simply had to leave me). I read articles, books, websites on how to save your marriage, how to get your husband back, how to bust your divorce. I pretzeled, I validated, I sympathised, I understood. I nearly destroyed myself in the process.

When I discovered the OW, realised who she was, and how long the affair had been going on, I started reading other material. Resources which took a hardline stance on cheating. It became harder for me to excuse his behaviour by viewing it through the lens of MLC. For my own healing, I needed to internalise the fact that H cheated because he felt entitled to do so. Any other excuse fell by the wayside. A person could be in the worst marriage in the world, in the worst state of mind possible, and still not cheat because it would never even be an option. It's a matter of character. He believed he could, so he did. It was not a mistake, it was a choice.

And that's not a person whose values are compatible with mine.

I needed to accept that and get angry in order to have the strength to detach. That was step one. But the anger wouldn't go away. As long as it was bottled up inside, I was incapable of compassion. I was victimised, I was bitter, I was self-pitying. And that was nearly as bad for me as trying to save the marriage. So yesterday's confrontation needed to happen for my sake. For once, I decided to put my needs first instead of tiptoeing around him. And I will never feel guilty about that.

I have acknowledged and apologised for the legitimate concerns that he had with the marriage. I have continued to work on these issues. I have examined his repeated accusations of control in the time since BD, ie. since the marriage ended, and found them pretty spurious. How is it possible for me to be controlling him when I haven't spoken or interacted with him since November? What he perceives as control is actually consequence. He doesn't like playing by the rules of the divorce that he initiated. He doesn't like being held accountable for his choices. Not being allowed in the house is a consequence. Me filing legal paperwork is a consequence. Having to adhere to the visitation schedule is a consequence.

I would have to care about what he does in order to want to control him. And I truly don't.

I think it's very telling that the only emotion I felt after yesterday's conversation was sadness. Once the anger was flushed out, compassion could be felt again. I asked my friend J to come over and debrief with me yesterday. She brought flowers, coffee and pastries and we talked for a long time. She told me about ongoing incidents at work involving H and I just felt sorry for him. She has a meeting scheduled with H's manager this week about the incidents (that have nothing to do with his affair with an employee) and I'm sad to be privy to this trainwreck. I'd rather not know how much he is self-destructing.

Detachment and indifference. Much settles when only one is stirring it up.

Agreed. Now that my blockage has been freed, I can work on achieving this.

Thank you DnJ.

PS. I'm 31 H is 29.

[scout12]

What I have learned is that when I show mine how to hurt me, he does it again and again. I would try not to let him know the things that really eat away at you. When you don't react as he hopes, the fun of doing them will cease and he will move on to something else.

You got it all out, that’s good, now stop. No need to have any further discussions with him about the relationship. It’s all business from here on out. He’ll try to suck you into arguments - be like a smooth stone, no edges he can grab. Don’t let him push buttons. The opposite of love isn’t anger, it’s indifference. Be indifferent.

Grey Rock is the name of the game now. Get the legal separation done, keep building a new life for me and S1, and file for divorce in five months.

[DS9]

[quote]

Thanks for the validation and constant support, DS. I feel stronger now. I'm a little worried about retaliation through the settlement, but will deal with that as it comes. He tested me this afternoon by dropping S1 off 30 minutes late. I didn't acknowledge it.

Right back at you Scout. Whilst I can't profess to the breadth and depth of knowledge of the vets who are along for the ride with you, I'll keep doing what I can to help you out.

If there's any retaliation through the settlement from H, such as delays, refusal obfuscation etc, you may want to talk to your L about the pros and cons of giving him a short timeframe to confirm and sign, failing which you indicate you'll initiate settlement proceedings.

Anyway, like others said, try not to dwell on that.

**********************************************************

Excellent advice from DnJ, Ownit and KML that I've taken on board too - thank you folks!

[Gerda]

Scout, your anger is justified but my suggestion to you is to write lots of letters you don't send to H and never engage in those kinds of conversations with him in person or writing or anything. Not even about visitation. Get a lawyer and pay that person to handle visitation; the money will be well worth your sanity. That anger will consume you, not him. He doesn't even understand what you are saying. If he is in MLC, he is not the man you knew and he is living in a completely different reality until he gets through MLC. You know how in Charlie Brown the grown-ups are always saying, "wanh wanh wanh wanh" no matter what they are saying? Everything you say is like that to him except that any anger feeds his perception of everything he hates about you.

Would you try to have a rational conversation about your relationship with a great-grandma with Alzheimer's who thought you were her mother?

Would you try to have a rational conversation about our relationship with a drug addict who was in the middle of a heroin high?

If you have read my sitch, you know that I have been at this for 7 years. I assure you that the only way you will live through this is if you stop justifying, explaining or discussing anything with your H until he comes to you openly expressing interest in you. That day will come if you drop the rope, but only if you drop the rope. It might come many years from now when you chose to move on. But everything you say now is like talking to an evil talking doll in a horror movie.

[DS9]

Hey Scout,

Just checking up on you. No pushback from H I trust?

Hope all's well with you and S.

Cheers DS