I remember us speaking about a one-off incident on your part a long time ago. I do remember our conversation about that. I really think if that's all there is to it (and I don't at all mean to imply I think you are being dishonest) then your wife is being irrational. She seems to be controlling the narrative with the others involved in this situation here. Whatever her story or opinion of you is - it doesn't matter.
Maybe you're not ever going to be able to convince her by your words, behaviour or actions that you aren't who she believes you to be. That's going to be incredibly hard to accept, I know. And it might be years before you fully fully accept that her opinions and beliefs about your character and motivations aren't the facts of who you are. And that would also be true if she thought the sunshine shone out of your belt buckle.
More pressing than acceptance is that you are able to present clear evidence of a continued pattern of caring for and meeting the physical and emotional, educational and medical needs of your kids. She might have an opinion about your emotions. She might have professional experience. But she isn't your doctor or caregiver and there's a reason why, even if she is qualified to diagnose, she wouldn't be permitted to diagnose a close family member: she's not objective and by the standards of her own profession her opinion on you is junk.
You can give evidence of a pattern of behaviour. I know the letters worry you, but you have done what you can on that for the time being. I think this situation has gone well, well beyond you earning her trust - given that if what you say is right (and I have no reason to think it isn't) she's being irrational and her trust in you would mean nothing anyway.
Take it this way - from a mother who had absorbed more verbal abuse and toxic, emotionally dysregulated behaviour from a man than was sane or reasonable on my part (and that's on me) if this woman - a mother - truly and honestly believed you were a physical risk to your children you wouldn't be having them at all. No sense of wanting to be kind would let any sane mother put her children in danger.
Reading through this (and I haven't read your entire thread but will do so) I will tell you that my impression is that she is emotionally abusing you. This is gaslighting and trying to make you think there is something wrong with you. It is NOT OK. No one deserves to be treated like this. I absolutely believe that you are doing the right thing in no longer participating in her toxic and unhealthy narrative. If she were a physical abuser, would earning her trust be a worthy goal? After reading through these last few posts, I don't think it is possible for you to earn her trust at this point anyway. She'll just keep moving the goalposts. The part about she's doing you a favor by not moving away with the kids and by telling you what is wrong with you in MC just kills me. That is wrong, wrong, wrong.
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
She's either trying to control you, there's something more to your past behaviour you have not disclosed (I don't think that's the case) or she's genuinely struggling with an anxiety problem and the difficulty of realising she isn't ever going to be in total control of ever aspect of her children's lives. Either way, the most loving thing you can do for your kids - and I believe for your wife - is not to enable that irrationality.
I think Alison has a couple of really good points here I want to reinforce. One, even though I know my H is a great dad and I trust the kids with him 100 percent, I struggle with the thought of not having the same level of input and control that I do today (and frankly, I think this will bother him too). For someone who is a SAHM and might have had a lot of control over all these aspects of the household and the children, this has got to be terrifying (and probably part of the reason she made you be the one to move out, and is hanging on so dearly to this notion that you are somehow untrustworthy because that is the only way she gets to keep that level of control over their lives in a D situation). I also agree that you simply can't enable that anymore by validating or participating in any way.
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
Take it this way - from a mother who had absorbed more verbal abuse and toxic, emotionally dysregulated behaviour from a man than was sane or reasonable on my part (and that's on me) if this woman - a mother - truly and honestly believed you were a physical risk to your children you wouldn't be having them at all. No sense of wanting to be kind would let any sane mother put her children in danger.
Yes. 100%.
Your kids won't be scarred for life. You have really done so much to reassure me that the S is leading you to be a better, more present, and more intentional father. You can continue to do what you do and be the loving, rational parent. You never need to let them hear you say anything negative about your mom and you can be there for them to ask questions and know you love them unconditionally. If it gets bad, you could always have them see a therapist now so that they have the tools to deal with this situation. But you packing up your bags to make it "easier" on them? Play that out a little bit to their 20s and their narrative will be that their dad abandoned them and they'll have a whole 'nother set of issues to deal with.
You deserve to be in their lives and they deserve to have you. They NEED you. Especially if she's in such a messed up place. Don't let your W fool you into thinking that the D will be so bad that you should capitulate.
Your plan-- going dark, GAL, moving forward with the mediation process to resolve the financial and custody issues-- seems to be the right one. I can't remember, are you in IC?
You are a good person and a great dad. Don't forget that. You're doing the right thing for them.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Thank you for your feedback. I can tell you put a lot of careful thought in your replies.
We all face a choice. Do we continue with the patient approach and endure our situations? Do we focus so much on self-improvement that we become happy regardless of what happens, but also continue in relationships that do not bring us joy, love, and emotional fulfillment for some indefinite amount of time (days, months, years, decades)? Is that an acceptable life choice? Can we heal from the thousand paper-cuts and deeper wounds inflicted upon us during the situations? Can our partner? This decision is personal for every one of us, and there is no right or wrong answer. And we may never get confirmation for the remainder of our lives whether we made the right choice. Such is life.
I like the saying "Life is a place of abundance" - there are a gazillion potential futures out there for each of us. Many of those futures involve a divorce and our kids going through a difficult transition. DB (as I see it) is about reframing our lives -- the goal is not to pick one future and aim for that. The goal is to be happy regardless of which of those gazillion futures our lives leads towards.
OK enough philsophical indulgent rambling
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
You can give evidence of a pattern of behaviour. I know the letters worry you, but you have done what you can on that for the time being. I think this situation has gone well, well beyond you earning her trust - given that if what you say is right (and I have no reason to think it isn't) she's being irrational and her trust in you would mean nothing anyway.
Right. I have concluded that I will face the consequences of the letters. I can't run from the past. I can't fix it by being patient and waiting. I tried that for 6 months and my W did not budge. If the past affects my future parenting rights, so be it. I am hopeful that long-term my situation with my kids can be no worse than it currently is (4 days every 2 weeks, W making the primary decisions) -- and even now my relationship with my kids is higher quality than it was before!
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
Take it this way - from a mother who had absorbed more verbal abuse and toxic, emotionally dysregulated behaviour from a man than was sane or reasonable on my part (and that's on me) if this woman - a mother - truly and honestly believed you were a physical risk to your children you wouldn't be having them at all. No sense of wanting to be kind would let any sane mother put her children in danger.
I am sure she would do the same. Absolutely.
Originally Posted by may22
Reading through this (and I haven't read your entire thread but will do so) I will tell you that my impression is that she is emotionally abusing you. This is gaslighting and trying to make you think there is something wrong with you. It is NOT OK. No one deserves to be treated like this. I absolutely believe that you are doing the right thing in no longer participating in her toxic and unhealthy narrative. If she were a physical abuser, would earning her trust be a worthy goal? After reading through these last few posts, I don't think it is possible for you to earn her trust at this point anyway. She'll just keep moving the goalposts. The part about she's doing you a favor by not moving away with the kids and by telling you what is wrong with you in MC just kills me. That is wrong, wrong, wrong.
I agree that our dynamic is toxic and unhealthy, and that the goalposts will move. I recognize gaslighting techniques. Because of what I've gone through, I resist labels, but labels do help understand and can point us in the right direction to learn more. Gaslighting implies that the other person is maybe calculating or malevolent -- I think more often than not it's just an extremely toxic way they have of relating to the world, and some of us fall prey to the techniques. It is confusing as all get out when it happens.
Last summer I read a book on emotional abuse. It was incredibly fascinating. There are clear-cut cases where one partner is flat-out abusing the other. Calling them awful names, taking away their spending money, etc. But there is so much gray area and this book explored the gray areas at length, including the dynamic where both partners are hurting each other but perhaps in different ways. The fact is... relationships require vulnerability. And with love comes the potential to hurt. It is a risk we take when we jump into the deep end of the pool.
Originally Posted by may22
I think Alison has a couple of really good points here I want to reinforce. One, even though I know my H is a great dad and I trust the kids with him 100 percent, I struggle with the thought of not having the same level of input and control that I do today (and frankly, I think this will bother him too). For someone who is a SAHM and might have had a lot of control over all these aspects of the household and the children, this has got to be terrifying (and probably part of the reason she made you be the one to move out, and is hanging on so dearly to this notion that you are somehow untrustworthy because that is the only way she gets to keep that level of control over their lives in a D situation). I also agree that you simply can't enable that anymore by validating or participating in any way.
I absolutely empathize with my W on this level. She has been a SAHM for 2+ years now. She is in a new city, will have to ramp up her career, and will almost certainly require a change to her current living situation. That alone is terrifying as you said.
I also know she likes her control, and will grasp it even more tightly in this situation. I think there are areas of our kids' lives where, going forward, I may be okay with her having that control. I'm not sure. I certainly empathize that she knows she is facing a difficult transition. I also worry about her - I think she has an unhealthy narrative running in her head that will make this transition harder for her and the kids. There is not much I can do to change that, and by starting the D process I imagine it will only get worse for some time. But... I don't think I can help her anymore. I think if my goal is earn her trust back so we can have an amicable D, that alone will take another year. In the meantime, I will have a lot of uncertainty in a continued limbo, no reasonable chance at more time with my kids, and we will continue to be financially wasteful. And my end goal would be to avoid a nasty D, which again may or may not happen regardless. I certainly don't want that, I want something that is reasonable and fair within the guidelines of the law.
Originally Posted by may22
Your plan-- going dark, GAL, moving forward with the mediation process to resolve the financial and custody issues-- seems to be the right one. I can't remember, are you in IC?
You are a good person and a great dad. Don't forget that. You're doing the right thing for them.
Yes, I am in IC. My IC doesn't necessarily dole out advice -- we explore options and then evaluate the pros/cons and he leaves decisions up to me. I like that approach.
It seems like you have a good plan and youʻve thought this all through. I agree that her behavior, labeled or not, probably doesnʻt come from a place of malevolence. Sheʻs hurting and confused too. But-- I think you can feel good that you have given the situation time; youʻve completely thought every possible path through; youʻre empathizing with her to the extent possible; you know your priorities; and the status quo is just not sustainable anymore from a financial or parenting standpoint.
What do you need for support as you move forward?
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I have some thoughts on the words "emotional abuse" I see in your thread. I will relate those thoughts as they pertained to my situation, because I think it may help me or you or others gain some perspective. You won't see much talk about emotional abuse on my thread much, perhaps the tail end of it, because it happened before I found DB. But it did happen.
On the surface of it, for six months following BD1, anyone on the outside of my R looking in would tell you that my W was emotionally abusing me. The anger, the hatred, the silent treatment for months. The complete shutdown of affection and communication.
It did affect me - badly. Friends and family saw my suffering and said I should move on, that I deserved to have someone better. That if someone was treating me this badly I should find someone new and maybe even have a family with that new person, move away, start a new life etc.
I could have looked at my sit from their perspective, that is true. I could have been D by now, had I chosen to follow their advice. But then I started reading here, and I found a lot of things that resonated with mid-life crises, menopause, hormonal issues, thyroid issues, depression related to life-changing events, etc etc. And the more I read the more I understood (very slowly) that it was not my battle that was happening. In fact, it had nothing to do with me. It was all to do with whatever it was W was going through.
So I decided to accept my situation, accept that the MR was over, and accept that the "emotional abuse" was really just a projection of W's rapidly changing and random emotional rollercoaster - that it was all part of her issues. Not mine. It was then and only then that I started to get stronger, and little by little my perspective changed.
None of this is to tell you what to do, or what to think, or how to act in your sit.
The point I'm trying to make is - if you choose to see yourself as "emotionally abused", it can form an unhealthy identity within you. And the more you think about it, the more you can cement it as your own narrative.
Yes, your W did those things, and that in no way shape or form makes them okay.
It is not ok. It is never ok.
But you have the choice as to whether or not you choose to live within that mindset. Knowing that your W is going through a huge upheaval - whatever it is - I think that empathy and kindness can show you the way to forgiving her for her actions. It will also leave you with a clear conscience - knowing that you did all you could within your power, regardless of outcome.
Personally I think you're too good of a dad, too good of a person, to let those incidents that happened half a year ago and more now dictate how you live the rest of your life.
Be the rock, man. Be the lighthouse. You've got a great future ahead of you, no matter how this turns out.
I completely get where you are coming from on this point.
It has mostly been a reframing exercise to realize that I am not the monster she portrays. My W has tiptoed very close to the edge. She has used the power of her allegations to control me, and used the power of a 3rd party counselor to hammer this home. Or you can say I allowed this to happen. Either way, the dynamic has not been healthy for me, I don't believe it is healthy for her, and it's DEFINITELY not healthy for our kids.
Now... I understand that I sound like a victim saying the above. Part of telling her I won't go back to MC is to take back my own personal power. I think this is healthy. I can choose to continue living in her world, or start doing my own thing. That's just how I see it.
Going back to your point, learning about "emotional abuse" did help me reframe things. Whereas before I thought I was being patient by tolerating my W's behaviors, now I am still empathetic towards her but I am choosing to stand up for myself. This is one of the biggest 180s I can make (in my opinion).
I don't really identify with the term. I'm no victim. But coming to terms with what has been happening in our relationship has helped. I see the toxic dynamic for what it is.
I wish I could be more patient in some ways. I see my kids suffering. I know they want mom and dad to be together again. I can't make it happen.
I'm glad that you aren't identifying as a "victim". You are the only one that can allow her accusations to hurt you. Reading your sitch I've often wondered if your W is blame-shifting because of her own guilt or shame. If there is/was any truth to her concerns, it is in the past and you are working to become the best version of U. I don't personally know your past, but from what I've seen here it is clear that you are growing. I don't know that I can say the same for your W. The toxicity of the current R will take a long time to clear, if ever. Keep pushing forward pal - and enjoy the little things!
KG
LBW 32 - me WW 31 T 7 M 4 No Kids 4 dogs
Separated 1y Navigating the mine field and GAL with or without
I can let her continue to project and mind-read EXCEPT when it crosses over into dangerous accusations. Some accusations are in the gray area (“you were out of control” when I was actually calm) and I need to think about where that boundary lies.
Up until the last month or so, I was trying to validate ALL of her feelings which I think played into her dangerous narrative. Perhaps I could have been more deft handling those conversations at the time.
Up until the last month or so, I was trying to validate ALL of her feelings which I think played into her dangerous narrative. Perhaps I could have been more deft handling those conversations at the time.
I find this difficult as well. Validating my H’s opinions vs calling him out when he’s flat out stating “alternative facts.” I have been mostly validating also or just keeping quiet when I’m not sure whether I should say something. But I could see the risk of being treated as a doormat and having facts twisted entirely if you leave them alone to conjure up a narrative that fits their strategy (I think I flatter them when I say they can strategize....should I say fits their “feelings at the moment).
