Gift #3

[unchien]

Yail ~ Thank you for thoughtful response - I want to respond in more detail to you (and may) later when I have more time.


Real quick though... when my W alludes to things she doesn't want to write about, what she means is her "child safety" concerns. "Things that happened". etc. She probably means she wants me to develop a "child safety" plan similar to what she insisted on when I first moved out.

I am not playing that game anymore.

Otherwise, she does negotiate over text willingly.

[Yail]

Thank you for the clarification. Yes, that is a completely different context than I was initially thinking.

[fade]

I and others have commented to you before and told you where you are headed, and my advice remains the same - cancel mediation immediately, retain a lawyer to either file or mediate for you, and limit all communication to child logistics in writing only.

But, Im pretty confident that you wont do any of this. Instead, you will continue to do what you have done this entire time - do everything you can to try to keep yourself in this situation forever.

[Yail]

I and others have commented to you before and told you where you are headed, and my advice remains the same - cancel mediation immediately, retain a lawyer to either file or mediate for you, and limit all communication to child logistics in writing only.

But, Im pretty confident that you wont do any of this. Instead, you will continue to do what you have done this entire time - do everything you can to try to keep yourself in this situation forever.

I'm not sure that I feel unchien isn't listening. Or in denial about anything. The fact of where "this is headed" can be set in stone, but we all choose which path we take to get there.


I would agree with keeping dialogues to be children logistics only, and writing is preferable. Mediation vs no mediation does seem to be the current decision being made.

unchien, I need to spend time reviewing your history/sitch. I know I read most of it, but I'm not not remembering clearly. I hope to do so in the upcoming days, and to be more engaged with your process.

[unchien]

-- IIRC, you did have some vets chime in a while back, who basically said lawyer up and hold on to you hat because this isn't going to be pretty. If you received similar advice right now, what would your reaction be?

I have a L at the ready, and I expect things will likely turn ugly.

-- Do you need to decide about the expensive after school activity now? Can you just say I don't think it is an appropriate time to be making these decisions until we figure out what is going on with money and schedules?

The deadline is tomorrow to sign up. I think the money/schedule issue is a big problem. But we are going to face many of these decisions while we sort out the details of the D, and can't punt on them all.

-- is she taking the kids on spring break without you?

No, the kids get 2 breaks. I am taking 1, she takes the other. She wanted a special travel budget for the breaks, I said no because we are spending way above our means and I think it is irresponsible.

--Can you wait until after the next mediation session to make up your mind? Are there certain things you might watch for specifically that could help you make up your mind? Not having been through these I don't know what it is like, but I'm wondering if you can state up front that you're concerned about the pace of progress and how very far apart you are, and that for you to feel safe about continuing in the process (since she's throwing around that kind of language, fair game for you too) you'd like to see some progress on one element so that you can trust she's open to true compromise?

It sounds like the earliest we can meet with the mediator again is 3 weeks from now, for boring reasons I won't explain.

I know it's only been one session, and we barely scratched the surface, but the longer this goes:

- the longer our existing situation establishes "precedent"
- the longer I go seeing my kids less than I feel is right
- the longer I go over-spending money and not moving on with my life

On the flip side, my W has little reason to push things forward.

I know that filing does not necessarily speed things up. If things really blow up and we go to court, it could slow things down.

--Have you been able to say what you want yet in meditation, or was it just her saying what she wanted and you listening?

Mostly the latter.

When I said I want more time with the kids, she offered a few hours on a weekday afternoon. And only if my boss signed off on the flex time for me, that I dropped the kids off later that evening, etc.

In terms of your W... I feel a bit as though she's a wild animal and you're circling her, giving in to her little demands (though not happy about it), testing her, wondering if you just do X or do Y she'll calm down and eat from your hand or go through the gate you want her to go or whatever. (Bad analogy, I know.) But... you can't control her and you definitely can't control whatever she has built up inside her head. You can file, you can not, you can give in to spring break, you can not... but ultimately, I doubt that anything you do will materially affect her thinking and behaviors. You need to figure out what is best for YOU and then just do it. If she flips that is on her and you couldn't have prevented it.

This is a good analogy. I think she truly believes I am a safety risk and she doesn't trust me (like a wild animal). I just think trying to appease her is doing no good.

So maybe I need to separate my desire to do this a respectful and honorable way (i.e., try to mediate amicably) from appeasing her. I find it REALLY hard to determine where that line is drawn. Food for thought I guess.

In honor of... I think it was Yail, who pointed out that the third, unknown option always ends up what happens... I think you are someone who *is* always open to the unknown and I would just encourage you to remain open to the possibilities as they may arise. And, trust yourself. You'll make the best decision you can, in the best interests of your kids and yourself, and with compassion for your W. That is a good thing.

Yup, the illusion of control. The fact is, this whole thing could blow up and my kids may resent me. Or things could turn out great. I have to be okay with whatever happens and enjoy my life regardless. I've been struggling with that lately.

[may22]

I know it's only been one session, and we barely scratched the surface, but the longer this goes:

- the longer our existing situation establishes "precedent"
- the longer I go seeing my kids less than I feel is right
- the longer I go over-spending money and not moving on with my life

If it were me and I was looking at these three, the first two are big issues. The over-spending $$ could be an issue, depending on your situation. Not moving on with your life... well... you'll do that eventually.

But, I see the first two as major reasons to speed things up from where I sit. #1 would terrify me, honestly. #2 makes me mad on your behalf (also your kids). The idea that offering a few extra hours on a weekday afternoon *if* your boss signed off on flex time is just ridiculous. I know a few other posters have mentioned the "right of first refusal" so that definitely might be something for you to be thinking about-- you get 50/50 straight custody and she can choose to pick them up from school and bring them to your house at 5 pm or whatever rather than have them be in after school care. I think I mentioned this previously, but my neighbors do this-- the mom's work schedule is shifted a lot earlier than the dad's, so she picks them up from school, brings them to his house and actually feeds them dinner before he gets home on some of his nights. Otherwise, they stay in after school care and he gets them on his way home from work.

I guess I'm still not seeing how having Ls involved if you stick in the mediation route, just L-assisted, is not respectful or honorable. I mean, if you get a good attorney, this is their JOB. This is what they do for a living all day long. And they have seen it all and should be able to advise both of you appropriately. It seems to me like tapping into that expertise (again, as long as it is the right person with a mindset you agree with) is only a good thing, especially in your situation where you are just so, so far apart in the first place. If you guys were both talking about 50/50 split and needing to sell the house, she just needed a few extra months of spousal support while she found someplace new-- OK. Mediation sounds dandy. Where you are right now... I just don't see how it is honorable or respectful, honestly, to either of you to pretend like mediation is going to get you to the end zone on its own.

All that being said, I think it is very important that you make your own choice on this. I know you describe yourself as having a tendency to over-analyze things and have a hard time making a decision. I get this. is there some way you can help yourself to make that decision? This might be silly but maybe draw out a logic model or flow chart of decisions and potential outcomes or make a pros/cons list to your various options... anything to help you maybe visualize your options in a different way.

[unchien]

If it were me and I was looking at these three, the first two are big issues. The over-spending $$ could be an issue, depending on your situation. Not moving on with your life... well... you'll do that eventually.

I agree, if things were set with the kids I would be feeling a lot better. The money part is much less important, but still important.

But, I see the first two as major reasons to speed things up from where I sit. #1 would terrify me, honestly. #2 makes me mad on your behalf (also your kids). The idea that offering a few extra hours on a weekday afternoon *if* your boss signed off on flex time is just ridiculous. I know a few other posters have mentioned the "right of first refusal" so that definitely might be something for you to be thinking about-- you get 50/50 straight custody and she can choose to pick them up from school and bring them to your house at 5 pm or whatever rather than have them be in after school care. I think I mentioned this previously, but my neighbors do this-- the mom's work schedule is shifted a lot earlier than the dad's, so she picks them up from school, brings them to his house and actually feeds them dinner before he gets home on some of his nights. Otherwise, they stay in after school care and he gets them on his way home from work.

#1 does terrify me. She confuses me. She says I'm a safety risk, yet I have them 4 straight nights every 2 weeks. Back in December I thought we had an agreement to have 2 more nights a month, and she backed away quickly and said she never agreed.

I might consider 50-50 with the right of first refusal. I'm not sure though. She has mentioned that before. I think some baseline trust needs to be established. As it stands, the safety risk talk and other things with my kids worry me a lot. I'm not sure I want her coming to my home regularly. I don't see why I can't have them in an after-school program 1 day every 2 weeks if I need a couple hours of help.

I guess I'm still not seeing how having Ls involved if you stick in the mediation route, just L-assisted, is not respectful or honorable. I mean, if you get a good attorney, this is their JOB. This is what they do for a living all day long. And they have seen it all and should be able to advise both of you appropriately. It seems to me like tapping into that expertise (again, as long as it is the right person with a mindset you agree with) is only a good thing, especially in your situation where you are just so, so far apart in the first place. If you guys were both talking about 50/50 split and needing to sell the house, she just needed a few extra months of spousal support while she found someplace new-- OK. Mediation sounds dandy. Where you are right now... I just don't see how it is honorable or respectful, honestly, to either of you to pretend like mediation is going to get you to the end zone on its own.

I have no problem with L-assisted mediation. I think filing *and* going for support orders will come as a shock to my W and could light a fuse. I don't know. It doesn't prevent L-assisted mediation. I also would like to protect myself and still try to handle this amicably.

Your points about the effectiveness of mediation are exactly how I feel. We have only gone to 1 session. But MC for 6 months last year was effectively a form of mediation - working out a parenting schedule, some financial temporary agreements, etc. I just realized this is what is frustrating me so much... we have in a way been mediating for 7 months, and I'm not happy with the outcome. The first 6 months involved mediating with a counselor who wanted me to be soft and gentle and hope that my W would trust me over time. I feel "coached" to be submissive and passive.

Ugh... as much as I've learned here the last 9 months, I feel like I've learned nothing.

All that being said, I think it is very important that you make your own choice on this. I know you describe yourself as having a tendency to over-analyze things and have a hard time making a decision. I get this. is there some way you can help yourself to make that decision? This might be silly but maybe draw out a logic model or flow chart of decisions and potential outcomes or make a pros/cons list to your various options... anything to help you maybe visualize your options in a different way.

I really appreciate you saying this. I come here not to outsource my life decisions but to get feedback. Obviously everyone here knows I have major issues being decisive, and I know it frustrates some of the vets. It is my life and I have to live with my decision.

But to be honest, what is holding me back is worrying about HER reaction and worrying about how that may impact my kids. Maybe they will resent me if they see what happens to their mother. I know I cannot control those things, but it is really hard to let those go. Harder than letting my W go. The thought that I am not doing right by my kids keeps me up at night.

[may22]

#1 does terrify me. She confuses me. She says I'm a safety risk, yet I have them 4 straight nights every 2 weeks.

I think the safety risk thing is BS. And she clearly knows it is BS or she wouldn't be OK with this arrangement. You have to just stop worrying about this because she's using it as a weapon to get you to do what she wants.

But to be honest, what is holding me back is worrying about HER reaction and worrying about how that may impact my kids. Maybe they will resent me if they see what happens to their mother. I know I cannot control those things, but it is really hard to let those go. Harder than letting my W go. The thought that I am not doing right by my kids keeps me up at night.

This is super hard and I just don't have any advice for you. I think about this a lot too, like wouldn't it be in my best interest to remain BFFs with my H if we D for the sake of our children (he has said this to me a lot... like you say you'll do *anything* for them but if that is true, why won't you consider this?). And yet. I do think there is a good deal of research out there about the importance of having both parents play a major role in the lives of the children, especially for boys to have their dad be very present. Maybe you can do some research around some of these studies to help your decision, knowing that the data show this will be best for your kids in the long run, even if it is more difficult in the short term.

Hang in there and hope you have a great day and weekend and can take a little bit of mental time away from this issue. You know you're an amazing dad.

[unchien]

I think the safety risk thing is BS. And she clearly knows it is BS or she wouldn't be OK with this arrangement. You have to just stop worrying about this because she's using it as a weapon to get you to do what she wants.

I know we're not supposed to mind-read and all but I have to indulge.

I don't think she thinks it is BS. I don't think she sees the inconsistencies. I don't think she sees how "stability" and "what's best for the kids" just happen to align exactly with what is in her best interest. She thinks I'm unsafe with the kids, the MR failure is my fault, and SHE is the one sacrificing.

How does she pull this mind-trick? It doesn't matter. Does she recognize the cognitive dissonance? Unlikely. I mean, EVERYBODY justifies what they do (self included) even if it is illogical and contradictory sometimes. It is the human condition. I think I've been patient enough by now. She is not approaching mediation with any openness to what I want.

Example circular logic:

Today, for instance, (via text) I said no to the special kid activity, for precisely the reasons you stated may (we shouldn't be making big decisions that affect schedule and money right now). She came back with how great it would be for them, how she was not okay with any alternative proposal, how stability was key for the kids, how the kids needed to know where they will live (um, I moved out and that didn't seem to be concerning), how she can't go back to work without knowing where she will live. She said all the professionals we have talked to point to the importance of stability in our kids' lives. (No they are just listening to what she says -- stability includes a balanced relationship with BOTH parents, right?) I responded that we are over-spending by a ridiculous amount and I go long stretches without seeing the kids which I felt was wrong. She said well we can talk about that in mediation. She is "happy to work on things." I said I wanted more time with the kids. She said I had been "assigned" actions to confirm work flexibility with my manager. I said I already had that, and asked exactly what she was looking for in order to change our schedule. She said, "We can talk about that in mediation, I'm not okay to text about that. Really looking forward to figuring out where the kids will live".

Next mediation session may be a month out...

Anyways, I normally avoid these text exchanges with her, but I'm not going to wait a month for a mediation session to figure out she won't budge. It's pretty clear that we aren't going to get anywhere that I want to go via mediation. She knows what I want, she's just not budging.

[Yail]

unchien - you sound like you're doing this - but just a reminder that you should be extra careful about what you put in writing to W. She sounds like she will misinterpret and later down the road might try to get a L to "misread" what you write. You're doing well, just keep this in the forefront of you mind.

Similarly, you being nothing but level-headed and asking logical questions via text and continuously stating you wish MORE time with you kids is something you should document. I don't know if any of it makes a difference legally. But it doesn't hurt, and I think you should be documenting in this time period.

I'm sorry for your sitch.