Just make sure you are doing these things for YOU, because they are things you legitimately (and not just to the mind of her WW revisionism) fell down on in the past and could use the improvement. GALs and 180s are for YOU.... if you are doing them just to impress her she will see right through it. You CANNOT "nice" a WW/WAW back into the MR... nor can you attract them back by turning into the "gay butler" (not that there's anything wrong with that) type of H who scurries around doing all the housework and attending to the little princess's (your W) every need. If these are legitimate areas of self-improvement, than go for it.. but i would not limit it to just those things. Make sure you are still getting out on your own and doing some things for you, ScottB. Climb rocks, learn auto mechanics, skydive, join a boxing gym, run with the bulls.... Something outside of your comfort zone but fun... and cool. Become AMOAFWL.
Last edited by hoosjim; 02/10/2010:40 PM.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
That is so spot on. I do have a tendency to lose myself. So I need to go through those ideas and make sure I’m being true to myself. Great advice. Thanks.
It's such a roller coaster. I had a relatively good night all around. Nothing exceptional about it, just put my best foot forward. I would say the emotional tone felt low. I did the varied things I mentioned previously, also the family went to get ice cream on my wife and I tagged along. Her and I watched a show and went to bed.
When we laid down I struggled. That's when I normally give her a kiss good night and say I love her. I laid there in silence. She said good night, I said good night. Then I kissed her on the forehead. I debated telling her I loved her and went with it because for better or worse, I feel like I have to be true to myself - maybe for worse. I was fully aware and expecting her not to say it back and I had made my peace with that, but oddly she said "I love you too."
Yesterday I left a message for the mediator that we had discussed using. The mediator called me back this morning and had thought that my wife and I had discussed it because Holly had called her earlier in the day yesterday.
On the one hand, I called the mediator too, so I'm not sure why it hit me like a load of bricks. It just hurt so much that my wife had called this woman, told her about our family, and this woman was looking to get us scheduled.
I know my wife is confused and doesn't know what the right thing to do is. It feels like an invisible force is just moving us down a path, like a conveyor belt to the inevitable.
I'm going to work out today at lunch and then I plan to get my head straight for tonight when I see her next. I'll try to walk the line between effective 180's and not overdoing it.
I am planning to connect with an attorney to make sure that I know the things I need to know to protect myself. This is very sad.
I know you are 4 years in, but when you feel you have to take action that action will almost always result in that conveyor belt advancing. LIke I said when you and the MC pushed her to answer are you in or out, when pushed the WAS will almost always say "out".
This is why we say remove all pressure and pursuit. Pressure and pursuit will almost always result in that conveyor belt advancing. This is where you as-if attitude should come in.
As far as the kiss goodnight and the "ILY", I feel you are doing further damage. Do you know how in my sitch I knew it was okay to initiate ILY? When she started initiating it herself. I've seen others here and elsewhere say that when you say"ILY" to your WAS, it reminds them that they don't feel the same way. Not something that will help your sitch. Saying "ILY" (and I don't care that she brought it up in MC, they ALWAYS find fault with the LBS regardless of what the LBS is or isn't doing) is like saying: "Hey, remember, you don't love me anymore."
Hoos had the right plan for you. Stop saying ILY. Stop kissing her on the forehead (holy crap, that is what I used to do with my daughter!). End it at good night. Double, no triple, no check that QUADRUPLE down on GAL. Last night when she was taking the kids for ice-cream? "Oh sorry, I got some things to do." Then go do something! And continue to work on detachment. I think this is where MC has hurt your sitch because it has kept you attached. Are you in IC? That is what you should be doing. And you should have viewed MC as IC for you with her present.
Scott, you are stuck in a 4 year rut.....because you continue to spin your DBing wheels. Trust the process. Apply it with patience. Stop giving into the illusion of action. She contacted the mediator because she was pushed ("are you in or are you out?") into it.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Can I at least tell her that I'm going to stop saying ILY because I don't want to put pressure on her, but let her know that in my heart it's still there. I'm just not sure I can stop and leave her feeling like I don't care; or leave myself feeling like she might be wondering.
I know the take is that of course she knows, but for me, I feel like I need to make this clear before I stop. I think its the only way I can live with myself.
If I can talk to her about why I'm stopping these actions, I think I can step away, but without hitting it head on and explaining it to her, I don't know that I can stop. Thoughts?
I scheduled a call with my divorce coach for Thursday because it seems like things are heating up and though its only been a week and I like to go a couple I feel like I need some talking to.
Also, my IC is out of town for two weeks. If he was here, I would be seeing him weekly at this time.
Actions, not words. Trust me, she knows how you feel. She does not feel the same way and you saying it one or one thousand times ain't gonna make a damned bit of difference. Nor is explaining it to her that you're going to stop "because you don't want to pressure her but you do still love her". Are you even listening to yourself and how that sounds?
One of the golden rules of GAL-ing and 180-ing is that you don't say "I am going to do this"... you just do it.
Stop with the pressure. ILY is pressure. How many people who have been through this already, including some like me and steve who have come out the other side reconciled, do you need to have tell you this before you get it? What you are doing DOES NOT WORK, it hasn't worked for you for four years and it didn't work for us, either. Steve hits it right on the head: You will know when it is okay to say "ILY"... and that time is not now.
Do. What. Works.
Detach.
Stop pursuing.
Last edited by hoosjim; 02/11/2004:39 PM.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Can I at least tell her that I'm going to stop saying ILY because I don't want to put pressure on her, but let her know that in my heart it's still there. I'm just not sure I can stop and leave her feeling like I don't care; or leave myself feeling like she might be wondering.
I know the take is that of course she knows, but for me, I feel like I need to make this clear before I stop. I think its the only way I can live with myself.
If I can talk to her about why I'm stopping these actions, I think I can step away, but without hitting it head on and explaining it to her, I don't know that I can stop. Thoughts?
Newbie to newbie. What exactly do you think that conversation is going to look like that you think that this is the appropriate route?
This is the way I see it happening You: W I'm not going to be kissing you or saying ILY any more. Not because I don't want to but because clearly you don't want me to/I think that part of our R has run it's course/I think for my mental health I need to stop/etc. W: Ok.........
That's how it's going to go. She doesn't care. She doesn't want your kisses or your ILYs and/or explanations as to why or why not she'll be receiving or not receiving those things from you. She is confused and frustrated and you are turning her into a caged animal with the walls of your constant outpouring of love and affection. She needs space. She told you that. Space isn't necessarily letting her run around with OM. Space can sometimes just mean head space. Room to breathe. 2 months ago my H hated me. Like full on hated me. I didn't stop saying ILY then. Nope. I stopped saying ILY the day he admitted to the EA. Not because I didn't but because he didn't deserve it. And even though some of his behavior has shifted and sometimes maybe he does deserve it. Like when he said he's going to my daughter's parent teacher conferences with me and stopped me from arguing that I'm fine and I can do it alone. He still didn't get the ILY. He got "OK you win. I appreciate it." He knows I love him. Honestly I only bring it up when he wants to pin me in a corner as a villain who's trying to hurt him. I mean this as kindly as one can, but I'm not the warm and fuzzy type so I'm sorry if this sounds mean.
You're an adult. You do not need to say everything that immediately pops into your head whether you feel it or not. You are a grown man, impulse control is a thing. If I acted on every notion I've had in the last 4 months I'd either be in jail awaiting trial or he'd already be out the door. Even if you were a stonewaller right now in the state you guys are in she doesn't need to know every little thing that goes through your head in the moment. BACK OFF.
If you need to get it out, come here. Journal. Meditate. Pray. I don't know your spiritual jam. Go for a walk or a drive and scream or cry or both. I tell the body pillow in my husbands spot ILY good night every night. My H has now started making sure he says good night to me every night, well when he's home. It could be manipulation on his part. But it could be because I WON'T SAY IT FIRST EVER and it bothers him. Either way it was unsolicited and on his terms, and my goodnight in return, instead of silence, is enough for him to know.
Humans are not single cell organisms. They are complex creatures who are capable of perceiving things that are seemingly imperceptible. Like pupil dilation, flushing, body language, tone, vibes. Assuming your wife is a human, she knows what you are feeling with out telling her most of the time. Maybe you need to just trust that.
To add to what hoos and wayfarer have said, DBing is most effective IF your WAS has no idea that is what you are doing. This is why cadet's second post to every newcomer says that the DB/DR book is for you. Do not share it with your WAS. Do not even let then know you are reading it!
Scott, you are struggling out of fear. Fear will kill you every time in DBing. You should do nothing out of fear. If your coaches and IC aren't teaching you that lesson first and foremost....get new ones!
To quote the movie Office Space: "The fear of losing your job will cause you to do just enough to not get fired." That is not what we are going for with DBing, especially since it doesn't work. The fear of D has caused many many LBSs to get D'd. Again, I speak from my experience. One of the most powerful things that happened in my sitch was for me to stop fearing D, and start embracing it. You've been in fear of D for 4 years. And where has it gotten you? On the brink of a meeting with a mediator.
Imagine if you had embraced D 3 1/2 years ago. "Ok, you want a D, let's get it for you." One of two things would have happened. 1) You would have ended up D'd, and 3 1/2 years later you'd be past it and moved on with your life. or 2) Your W would have been all "wait, what? He is ready to give me a D? Why? What is going on? Is this really what I want?" and then 3 1/2 years later she'd have turned around and gone all in on not only saving the MR but making it better herself!
You aren't stuck because you have been in limbo for 4 years. You have been in limbo for 4 years because you are stuck.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I’m going to give you some unconventional advice then you’ve been given. Do whatever you feel is right without any expectation. The next thing is to open the cage door and set her free. She is 100% convinced her happiness is out there due to hormones, past experiences, expectations and bad influences. The only way for this to work out long term she has to go see for herself. At first she’ll enjoy the freedom but at some point reality will start to sink in and she may rethink her decision.
Every move you make from here on in should be about what is good for you and the children.
The nighttime ritual was normal except I gave her a kiss on the forehead that wasn’t returned and i said i love you which wasn’t returned.
She is clearly sending you the following message: "I do not want this from you and I wish you would stop it." If you continue it then I imagine at some point she will tell you to stop in no uncertain terms. Here's the thing- you want to save the M. She does not. By kissing her and saying ILY and being needy and desperate you are telling her "I don't care what you want, what I want is the marriage back". So not only do you look needy, but you look selfish too. You really should stop before you make things worse. Pull back. Give her time and space. Quit pursuing. Quit pretending you're still in a happy M.
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Again, remember, two weeks ago she had said that i wasn’t saying I love you anymore and that had bothered her as well as that I had changed up giving her a kiss at night.
Interpretation A (good, loving marriage going through a rough spot):
"I miss these behaviors and I want you to try and do these things so that we can get back on track."
Interpretation B (WAS):
"I'm explaining to you why I've checked out of the M, but the last thing in the world that I want now is for you to "fix" it because I am done. Now it's too little too late."
Many MANY LBS's fall into the trap of thinking their spouse means A when they really mean B.
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My "More of the Same" behavior / cheeseless tunnels / experiments I could do:
We don't compromise: Think of something where we can work to compromise. (New Stove that we've put off buying). I don't help with the kids: Find a way to help with the kids with homework. (Read with my Daughter). I am sarcastic, I turn things around on her: Be a cheerleader. Find sincere compliments, be more gracious. (Thanks for doing the laundry.) You're relentless: Find something important to give up on - Cell service for my son. You don't help around the house: do something unexpected - sweep the kitchen when I get home. Stop saying I'm depressed: Focus on my Individual Counseling and don't bring hers up. You don't support me: Figure out when she is going to the Dr. and go. I make her into the bad guy, she feels like things are her fault: I'm not sure yet.
I'm not saying not to do these things, but again see A and B above. She is explaining to you why she's checked out, not asking you to change these things. In her eyes it's too late. So like Jim and LH said, do them for YOU not for her, with NO expectations that it'll change anything. With time maybe she will come to appreciate your 180's, but for now she won't care.
As Steve said you'll know things turn around when SHE initiates the things you're doing without reciprocation right now. Signs of affection, a willingness to have sex, her pursuing you. Until then you've got to back off. Read Wayfarer's post again. Get out. GAL. Leave her alone. It's not what you want, but it's what SHE wants.
