I try to maintain self-awareness, but it's hard. I've got it good. I'm an able, talented person living in a wonderful city with a career I enjoy and great health. But then there's the voice: if that's the case, why doesn't she want me? If you have all of these things in your life you find fulfilling, why can't you stop thinking about the R? You've achieved so much in your life, how could you let this fail? How does anyone find peace with all of the things they wished they did differently?
I have such admiration for people on here who have done such a good job at detachment and dropping the rope. I just don't know how to do it. And I know it's rooted deep in me, all of my fears of abandonment from being adopted and my Mom passing away early, all of my co-dependency and NGS being the son of an alcoholic, and it just feels at times that I'm struggling against such a strong tide and it just floods and overwhelms me.
But I'm working on it. I'm working with my IC, I'm reading books, I'm posting here, I'm trying to figure it all out. That's all I can do, I guess.
SteveS ~ I suspect letting go is going to be really hard for you, given how you have described yourself here (and based on my own personal experience).
You are very success-oriented and accomplished and driven. Possibly that's connected to your FOA and NGS and co-dependency. I don't share the same childhood background as you, but I had a messed up childhood in my own way and I had full-blown FOA and NGS and co-dependent tendencies as a result. I also compensated by doing really well in school and finding self-worth through that route. I also struggle to accept failure, and think "if I just did X, Y, or Z differently..." and then I feel like absolute cr*p. I'm guessing you feel the same way. You didn't let things fail, they just did fail.
I suspect this journey for you may be really challenging. There's a saying about anxiety - "the more you think about your anxiety, the more anxious you get." In my case, I can sometimes over-commit to IC, books, podcasts, the DB forum, and other self-improvement activities, at the expense of living my daily life and enjoying it. I don't think in your situation I would have been able to drop the rope. It took some truly awful things to develop in my situation. So please grant yourself some self-compassion. It's not easy to drop that rope. Find the things that work for you, and discard the things that don't.
I try to maintain self-awareness, but it's hard. I've got it good. I'm an able, talented person living in a wonderful city with a career I enjoy and great health. But then there's the voice: if that's the case, why doesn't she want me? If you have all of these things in your life you find fulfilling, why can't you stop thinking about the R? You've achieved so much in your life, how could you let this fail? How does anyone find peace with all of the things they wished they did differently?
I have such admiration for people on here who have done such a good job at detachment and dropping the rope. I just don't know how to do it. And I know it's rooted deep in me, all of my fears of abandonment from being adopted and my Mom passing away early, all of my co-dependency and NGS being the son of an alcoholic, and it just feels at times that I'm struggling against such a strong tide and it just floods and overwhelms me.
But I'm working on it. I'm working with my IC, I'm reading books, I'm posting here, I'm trying to figure it all out. That's all I can do, I guess.
SteveS ~ I suspect letting go is going to be really hard for you, given how you have described yourself here (and based on my own personal experience).
You are very success-oriented and accomplished and driven. Possibly that's connected to your FOA and NGS and co-dependency. I don't share the same childhood background as you, but I had a messed up childhood in my own way and I had full-blown FOA and NGS and co-dependent tendencies as a result. I also compensated by doing really well in school and finding self-worth through that route. I also struggle to accept failure, and think "if I just did X, Y, or Z differently..." and then I feel like absolute cr*p. I'm guessing you feel the same way. You didn't let things fail, they just did fail.
I suspect this journey for you may be really challenging. There's a saying about anxiety - "the more you think about your anxiety, the more anxious you get." In my case, I can sometimes over-commit to IC, books, podcasts, the DB forum, and other self-improvement activities, at the expense of living my daily life and enjoying it. I don't think in your situation I would have been able to drop the rope. It took some truly awful things to develop in my situation. So please grant yourself some self-compassion. It's not easy to drop that rope. Find the things that work for you, and discard the things that don't.
Yes, this is exactly right. I get it from a lot of places - my friends, my family - why can't you just move on? What are you holding on to? And it's not like they're wrong. WAW has been awful to me since we got separated, and from their perspective, why would I want to be with someone who treats me like that?
But I don't want to give up. Partly because of the work I've been doing; I am 100% confident that I'm not the same man I was six months ago, and that this time off has been a blessing in that I can now recognize a lot of the behaviors that I contributed to our sitch. And partly because I'm still very attracted to her, we still get along so well when we do meet up, and so on.
I'm working on it with my IC. As I said, you're right - I've defined so much of my life through achievement, and derived so much of my self-worth from that accomplishment. And it's hard to move on because this is my biggest failure, and there's just so many X, Y, or Z things I can point to that I wish I would have done differently. I know I didn't consciously *let* things fail; if that was the case, I wouldn't be so unhappy now. But I also know I didn't do all that I could.
Your last paragraph is interesting - I'm sorry of course that it took some awful things to develop - but I really do worry that this purgatory, this friendly rapport that I have with WAW is actually doing me so much more harm than good. But I don't know how to judge all of it. I want to reconcile, so how can it be a bad thing that we can make each other laugh to easily? I just don't know how to weigh it all.
So, Q for the crew. As you may or may not know, WAW and I are not legally separated. She's mentioned wanting to get this out out of the way for many months, and has said that she has a difficult time getting her head wrapped around what she's really feeling and where she wants to go until that process is complete.
(For some background, both she and I are very data-driven people, so I can understand where she's coming from. A few people have asked me if there's an ulterior motive to this (such as dangling the hope of R to get more cooperation from me) and I really don't think so.)
Anyway, because she's dragging her feet on getting this document together, and because she's said it's such a blocker for her, I've begun working with my counsel to get the first-pass of the document drafted and get the ball rolling.
My concern is: a lot of vets in here have said to not initiate things that you are not ready for. If WAW wants to initiate something, be clear that it is not what you want but that you will not stand in their way, but if are not ready for D or for whatever step is out there, do not do it. Instead GAL, and go back to focusing on you.
Does that advice apply here? On one hand, I'm not thrilled with the prospect of getting this document in place because it's basically the entire work of getting D from an agreement perspective. On the other, this is what she said she needs to move towards a resolution, and one of my 180s w/r/t the two of us is taking the lead on management matters relating to the both of us.
So, Q for the crew. As you may or may not know, WAW and I are not legally separated. She's mentioned wanting to get this out out of the way for many months, and has said that she has a difficult time getting her head wrapped around what she's really feeling and where she wants to go until that process is complete.
(For some background, both she and I are very data-driven people, so I can understand where she's coming from. A few people have asked me if there's an ulterior motive to this (such as dangling the hope of R to get more cooperation from me) and I really don't think so.)
Anyway, because she's dragging her feet on getting this document together, and because she's said it's such a blocker for her, I've begun working with my counsel to get the first-pass of the document drafted and get the ball rolling.
My concern is: a lot of vets in here have said to not initiate things that you are not ready for. If WAW wants to initiate something, be clear that it is not what you want but that you will not stand in their way, but if are not ready for D or for whatever step is out there, do not do it. Instead GAL, and go back to focusing on you.
Does that advice apply here? On one hand, I'm not thrilled with the prospect of getting this document in place because it's basically the entire work of getting D from an agreement perspective. On the other, this is what she said she needs to move towards a resolution, and one of my 180s w/r/t the two of us is taking the lead on management matters relating to the both of us.
Hi Steve -- I'm by no means an expert or a vet, but I've read the DR book twice now and have been working with a DB coach, plus all of the stuff that I've read on the boards, and I think that, if you want a chance at reconciliation, you should leave it be. There's nothing wrong with working with a lawyer, but at the end of the day, if she wants a separation or a divorce and you don't, then it should be in incumbent on her to do the work, and deal with all of the realizations and pain and hurt that come with it. Just my two cents, though. Take it for what its worth.
I'm 40, H is 36. No kids. No infidelity of which I'm aware. Mini BD January 2020 -- not sure if he wants to try anymore BD March 2020 -- separation
Steve ~ Is there any reason that YOU need to legally separate (financial or otherwise)?
Don't work on a legal S as a way to prove a 180. Just my opinion.
Some here would say you are firmly establishing yourself as a Plan B with the friendly rapport with your WAW. I don't think in those terms (Plan A/B) necessarily, but I do think you are showing her that you are okay being friends, which makes perpetuating the situation quite easy for her.
I don't know how to help you get over the failure part. I feel it too. But it's not all your fault.
If you want to legally separate and legally move down the path to divorce, then knock out the separation agreement for her.
Originally Posted by SteveS
On one hand, I'm not thrilled with the prospect of getting this document in place because it's basically the entire work of getting D from an agreement perspective. On the other, this is what she said she needs to move towards a resolution, and one of my 180s w/r/t the two of us is taking the lead on management matters relating to the both of us.
I think when you do this and remove the "hard work" you remove the consequence of her choice and she never has to face the reality and really ask herself if this is what she wants. She said she "needs this to move towards a resolution". Maybe she meant that when she said it, maybe not. But with her feelings being all over the place I would not hold this statement like it's Gospel either.
I also think you can bring this to a quicker resolution by doing this. I don't know if that is true.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Thanks all for the replies so far. Yeah, there's a lot sort of mixed in here.
I do think that sooner or later, she'll get around to forming it with her lawyer and send it over to me, so I don't think there's a world where we go straight to D proceedings or we start to seriously talk about reconciliation/next steps. To phrase it another way, this is likely the next phase, regardless of whether it's initiated by me or initiated by here. So if I'm the one who forms the first document, then in theory I get to set the first terms, and to signal to her that I'm not just going to sit around passively forever, waiting for her to tell me how my life is going to go.
On the flip side, I can absolutely understand the psychology of not making it easier for her, and also making her go through with the mental exercise of facing the reality of the situation and assessing if it's what she really wants.
UNLESS... you can separate yourself from hoping for a particular outcome. Right now I sense your heart is holding on and your head is telling you to move on. When things are confusing in that way, maybe best to sit still until your internal tug-of-war calms down.
UNLESS... you can separate yourself from hoping for a particular outcome. Right now I sense your heart is holding on and your head is telling you to move on. When things are confusing in that way, maybe best to sit still until your internal tug-of-war calms down.
Things will eventually settle and become clearer.
Good advice. Yes, I'm still pretty firmly in the camp of wanting to R. I'll keep waiting it out, and working on me.
WAW and I live about five minutes apart; she in Brooklyn Heights and me in DUMBO, just down the street near the water. When she moved out, she needed to stay close for a few reasons, partly because she likes this area a lot, but also because she is on the Community Board and has to live within the area to serve on it. Anyway, we actually haven't run into each other all that much or at least not as much as you'd think, but we've now run into each other twice in about a week.
The first time I mentioned previously, and then last night, I was feeling very cooped up with the lockdown so I went for a walk and ran into her at the end of her jog. We talked for a 20-30 minutes, mostly about this and that, nothing too substantive. As has been the case with our last few interactions, the rapport is still very much there. We make each other laugh, nothing feels forced, conversation is flowing on both sides. The most awkward part for sure is the goodbye.
In these moments, I've been trying to remind myself to talk less, listen, and validate. It's been hard because she's really not letting too much out from underneath the curtain. She appears to really like her new job, and she seems content with things. I obviously don't wish her a bad time, but it's sort of clear that she's realized that she doesn't need me and while I don't think for a second I was holding her back in any way, it makes me wonder if that's the conclusion that she's drawn. (With that said, I don't think at any point of our M, either one of us would have said we *needed* each other. We're both too independently-minded.)
On my side of it, I'm fairly sure I don't let on that anything is other than good on my end, either - my business is starting up, I'm excited about that, and I feel good about my physical appearance thanks to my working out. But obviously behind the scenes I miss her terribly and while I don't *need* her by any means, this has been very disruptive and unpleasant for me. I am 100% sure that she knows that R is my goal.
I sort of go into these over-analysis loops whenever I see her, which doesn't help at all. On one hand, it's a good thing that the rapport is still there, and she clearly still enjoys talking to me. On the other hand, initiates most of the contact we do have (although it's typically very logistical - can you help me with this, etc.) and I think I've beat the situation with our legal separation into the ground a bit on here.
I'm sure the answer of "what to do" is nothing - keep GAL, keep going to IC, keep reading, and all of that. I sort of just wish I could handle all of this better than I do.
