How do you DB when you love your WAS?

[job]

Steve,

I'd like to make a "sticky" of this thread. Do you have a problem w/that?

[SteveLW]

Not at all.

[MoGirl]

A follow-up question to this line of questioning is usually "how will I know when the A is over and he really wants to come back?"

The answer is: you will know without any doubt when he is serious about returning to the MR. On the A being over, when his behavior is consistent over a long period of time, then you can be sure it is over. Do not trust words.

Is it a bad idea to ask my WAH if he is still in contact with the OW? Is this pursing? I ask because he is acting like my friend. I don't want to be his friend. I want to be his W. I think I've blown all DB efforts because I have been too accepting of his friendly gestures. I honestly don't know how to behave. I don't want to be in the friend zone, however I don't turn down opportunities to spend time with him out of fear that if I don't this will ruin my changes of R.

[SteveLW]

A follow-up question to this line of questioning is usually "how will I know when the A is over and he really wants to come back?"

The answer is: you will know without any doubt when he is serious about returning to the MR. On the A being over, when his behavior is consistent over a long period of time, then you can be sure it is over. Do not trust words.

Is it a bad idea to ask my WAH if he is still in contact with the OW? Is this pursing? I ask because he is acting like my friend. I don't want to be his friend. I want to be his W. I think I've blown all DB efforts because I have been too accepting of his friendly gestures. I honestly don't know how to behave. I don't want to be in the friend zone, however I don't turn down opportunities to spend time with him out of fear that if I don't this will ruin my changes of R.

Yes it is bad to do that. Remember the DB principle: remove all pressure and pursuit.

WASs and WWs in particular, will cake eat as long as you let them. Always being available to him WHEN he decides to condescend down from his throne to spend time with you doesn't increase your chance of Ring. In fact, it decreases it. Why? Because you are teaching him that he can do whatever he wants, and you'll be there anytime he decides he needs you.

So the best thing you can do is to start turning him down. Go no contact. Make him miss you a little. Remember, humans typically want most what they cannot have.

Mo, one last thing. Anything you do motivated out of fear is likely the wrong thing to do. Do things out of a place of power and control. You cannot control him or when he contacts you. But you can control you and your reactions to it! So let him start seeing what life is truly like without MoGirl in it. Otherwise he will continue to use you as a friend.

[BlueSea]

Go no contact.

Steve - What about when the WAH is still living with you?

Alright - though all this has just been going on since Feb 25th, I feel like it has been years...

The WAH is in the house, at first was "trying" at our marriage and I was told he stopped the A during this try time to focus on us, after about a month or so of that, he let me know he still did not feel any rekindled feelings - thought I was a great person, he knew I had made major changes that would stick and thought we would make great friends. (kill me) And he would no longer be trying...but stayed in the house. I really did not understand what "not trying" meant, until I recently discovered that it meant that he was fully back into a EA/PA.

I let him know last night that I know. We have been to one MC session where we learned a DEAR technique for conflict resolution and should practice together - so I used one of our practices to bring up that fact that I now understand what he meant by not trying - and all the associated feelings around it. It turned out to be a lengthy conversation, where he did break down getting a bit weepy and said he was struggling with his decision and that is why he is staying. He was very soft, tender and vulnerable...but that was last night.

This morning, he is back to being distant and cold. And in one interaction we just had, pretty upset.

We are in the house together - how do I effectively DB ?
Right now, little communication - answer his questions with 1 or 2 sentences. Try not to engage. My mind is so muddled out of stress that all I can keep in my head as one rule is SAY NOTHING.

Would really appreciate input on next smart DB steps in this situation.

[SteveLW]

Go no contact.

Steve - What about when the WAH is still living with you?

Alright - though all this has just been going on since Feb 25th, I feel like it has been years...

The WAH is in the house, at first was "trying" at our marriage and I was told he stopped the A during this try time to focus on us, after about a month or so of that, he let me know he still did not feel any rekindled feelings - thought I was a great person, he knew I had made major changes that would stick and thought we would make great friends. (kill me) And he would no longer be trying...but stayed in the house. I really did not understand what "not trying" meant, until I recently discovered that it meant that he was fully back into a EA/PA.

I let him know last night that I know. We have been to one MC session where we learned a DEAR technique for conflict resolution and should practice together - so I used one of our practices to bring up that fact that I now understand what he meant by not trying - and all the associated feelings around it. It turned out to be a lengthy conversation, where he did break down getting a bit weepy and said he was struggling with his decision and that is why he is staying. He was very soft, tender and vulnerable...but that was last night.

Likely this is manipulation on his part. WAHs are often concerned about finances. And he may not be able to move in with her or have anywhere else to go. So he gets a little weepy, pulls at your heartstrings, and cements his ability to continue living there and having you as plan B.

This morning, he is back to being distant and cold. And in one interaction we just had, pretty upset.

We are in the house together - how do I effectively DB ?
Right now, little communication - answer his questions with 1 or 2 sentences. Try not to engage. My mind is so muddled out of stress that all I can keep in my head as one rule is SAY NOTHING.

This is exactly how you should be interacting with him. Be friendly and upbeat, but let him initiate conversation. Avoid R talks but if he corners you in one you listen and validate. Try to be the one to end the conversations. Message about excuse (remember you are busy!).

Would really appreciate input on next smart DB steps in this situation.

Focus on you. Keep GAL (being busy). Keep working on 180s (self improvement). And keep working on detachment. Get to a place where his actions and words have no impact on you.

Oh, I'd stop MC, stat. Never go to MC with a WAS in an active PA.

[BlueSea]

Focus on you. Keep GAL (being busy). Keep working on 180s (self improvement). And keep working on detachment. Get to a place where his actions and words have no impact on you.

Thanks for the advice, I wasn't sure if DB meant I should kick him out due to the active PA.

So.... this continues until what? I have no clue...wait... until he leaves, right? this just socks.

[funbun]

Steve,

I logged in to say thank you for your post. I was having a particularly tough day today and I needed this.

I agree with you that letting go is the healthiest and wisest thing to do for a LBS. I believe once you truly let go, only then other possibilities can happen. I believe letting go precedes forgiveness and forgiveness precedes reconciliation. The LBS has to let go and give the WAS time and space that he/she needs. More importantly so that the LBS can find his or her own peace. Then it’s up to the WAS to find forgiveness. Someone mentioned that the WAS is full of resentment and the WAS has to forgive before the LBS has a chance of R. Also important to know that, you can’t force the WAS to forgive you, it’s a process for the WAS to undergo. The LBS has a different journey to make.

I might be oversimplifying it here but I hope I am making my point clear. Note that, I believe this only applies to WAS. Maybe it’s different if there is an A involved.

I want to add that letting go is a step-by-step process. It’s difficult to let go everything entirely. So you let go of your attachments one at a time. At your own pace. That would mean letting go of seeing each other, letting go of getting goodnight kisses, letting go of seeing her smiling with someone else, and so on. One at a time. Accept and let go. I am talking from experience and this way of thinking has helped me a lot.

[SteveLW]

Focus on you. Keep GAL (being busy). Keep working on 180s (self improvement). And keep working on detachment. Get to a place where his actions and words have no impact on you.

Thanks for the advice, I wasn't sure if DB meant I should kick him out due to the active PA.

So.... this continues until what? I have no clue...wait... until he leaves, right? this just socks.

MS, kicking him out, if it is something you can do (in most places it isn't legal to kick out a spouse, but you can ask that they leave). One of the biggest things we advocate here is to boot the cheating spouse out of the MBR. If I remember in your sitch he is already sleeping in another room.

But yes, I don't think there is anything wrong with telling him that due to his behavior that he is no longer welcome there.

MS, I know it sounds scary at first, but one of the best things I did in my sitch was to contact a lawyer and get a free consultation. It was empowering. It made the D process less scary (the unknown is scary). And when my W found out about it she realized just how serious I was becoming about moving on. Don't do it for that last reason. In fact, don't even tell him you did it. That should be a side-effect, not the goal.

Unfortunately, these things are rarely over quickly. We moved to Ring in about 4 months. But that was unusually fast and there were a lot of unique circumstances that got us there. Most of these things take over a year, and many go on for many years. Unfortunately, WASs are not as motivated to do the legal processes and paperwork as they are at As and acting as if they are already single. Often times the filing of the actual D falls to the LBS who eventually realizes that there is no other alternatives and they've waited for their WAS long enough.

[SteveLW]

Steve,

I logged in to say thank you for your post. I was having a particularly tough day today and I needed this.

I agree with you that letting go is the healthiest and wisest thing to do for a LBS. I believe once you truly let go, only then other possibilities can happen. I believe letting go precedes forgiveness and forgiveness precedes reconciliation. The LBS has to let go and give the WAS time and space that he/she needs. More importantly so that the LBS can find his or her own peace. Then it’s up to the WAS to find forgiveness. Someone mentioned that the WAS is full of resentment and the WAS has to forgive before the LBS has a chance of R. Also important to know that, you can’t force the WAS to forgive you, it’s a process for the WAS to undergo. The LBS has a different journey to make.

I might be oversimplifying it here but I hope I am making my point clear. Note that, I believe this only applies to WAS. Maybe it’s different if there is an A involved.

I want to add that letting go is a step-by-step process. It’s difficult to let go everything entirely. So you let go of your attachments one at a time. At your own pace. That would mean letting go of seeing each other, letting go of getting goodnight kisses, letting go of seeing her smiling with someone else, and so on. One at a time. Accept and let go. I am talking from experience and this way of thinking has helped me a lot.

funbun, thanks. And good insights. The process of getting to Ring and piecing is complex. But I totally agree with you that the first thing the LBS has to do is to let go. I think there is almost no chance of Ring until this occurs. The LBSs that we see here struggling the most are the ones that fight letting go the hardest. I think LBWs struggle the most with this. They have a mentality that love means never giving up.

But letting go is not giving up. You don't have to give up to let go. Letting go means that you become the picnic. The lighthouse. You are no longer moving TOWARDS them, but they knwo where you are and can move towards you if they ever decide to. The analogies of the picnic and the lighthouse are perfect metaphors for letting go (stop moving towards them!), but not giving up.

I also think that LBWs struggle more with the idea of whether or not spouses deserve unconditional love or not. I believe that in romantic relationships there is no such thing as unconditional love. There are always conditions. Conditions like you won't try to murder me. You won't abuse me. You won't have sex with other people. Etc. We SHOULD have conditions on our love. And I think LBWs that struggle the most think that no matter what I have to show him that I love him. Even though I said abuse was a deal-breaker. Though he beat me, I can overcome that deal-breaker with love.

I'd argue, back to my OP in this thread, that when you give up on your deal-breakers after your spouse breaks them, then that is another sign that you love being married to that person, not necessarily that you love that person unconditionally. It is kind of like a parent of a child that commits a crime. Love doesn't say "you committed a crime but I will help you escape the consequences of your crime". True love says "I love you and therefore I want to make sure that you face the consequences for your crime!" A parent that turns their child into the authorities, in my opinion, is showing more love than one that tries to harbor that child and shield them from the law.

I am off on a bit of a tangent, but your post funbun sparked in me a reminder of the behaviors I am seeing in current sitches. This board ebbs and flows. We tend to get a lot of LBHs posting here all at once, then at some point it will flow the other way and we get a myriad of LBWs. Recently we've seen more LBWs, and due to gender differences, the dynamics are always slightly different. But it amazes me to see women that are willing to put up with so much garbage from a man in the name of love. If I pulled half of the garbage that some of these WAHs in these sitches pull, my W would hire a lawyer and file for D so fast my head would spin. Why? Because she has a healthy love for herself! I often wonder if LBWs being willing to put up with so much is rooted in a lack of self-esteem.

Thanks for your words on forgiveness, funbun. Forgiveness is similar to love, in that you can forgive someone, and still require things from them. Take the example I used of the parent above. If a child comes to you and confesses a crime, and asks for forgiveness. The parent can forgive them AND at the same time expect them to turn themselves in to face the consequences of that crime. We as LBSs can move on from a WAS or WS and still love and forgive them.