How do you DB when you love your WAS?

[KitCat]

Hey MS

Sorry you didn't feel you were getting the support you needed.

LH is a stand up person and he wouldn't intentionally cause you additional pain. He speaks of reason when it comes to these situations even when we are not ready to hear it. Often times you can see someone else's situation and know exactly what to do because you are not emotionally invested as you are in your own which can cause you to react out of fear and panic.

Please know that so many on this board are exactly where you are at.

You have to focus on yourself. Stop putting the spotlight on your H... but go read my thread... I struggle with that minute to minute all the time.

Hang in there and really focus on DB.

[LH19]

- I left the boards just based on your reply - it felt indifferent to me and hurt me in that I felt blown off. And right now I am going thru a world of hurt and pain that is unbearable - so this just sent me right off the edge, if I could not find support here, the only place there really is. I am in a very bad place and will apologize upfront if I am being too sensitive.

Why do you say in the grand scheme it doesn't matter? .... What does right now then?
I just felt really hopeless after reading your reply. Like this relationship is just doomed and that was just the way it would be.

MS I am sorry that my post sent you off the boards that was not my attention. I tend to be a straight shooter in my posts while trying to show compassion because I have been through the pain myself. Some people don't like my style while others appreciate my honesty. I don't think your situation is hopeless in fact none of these situations are hopeless. I am true believer that time and space are the only thing that turns these around in the long term and most people don't have the patience and the discipline to wait it out. So it is my opinion that the little nuisances that you were talking about will not effect your situation in any way so do what feels comfortable to you.

Again I apologize and I will not post on your thread anymore.

[SteveLW]

[
Steve - I appreciate your advice, felt it was spot on to where I am at. I agree with you on the Corinthians "it is not self-seeking"...ie, let him go - and for me and situation I have communicated that door has been opened. And I am not one to get into any type of debate on scripture let me add that the verse 5 continues:"it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs" (NIV). I think the great thing about any verse, is that its totally open to interpretation for every person based on where they are at.

I am not sure that what you quoted in verse 5 changes my point on "does not seek it's own" as KJV words it. Absolutely that love is slow to anger. And it doesn't keep a record of wrongs. Totally agree. But if the person wants out of the marriage it is not love that tries to keep them in it. That was my whole point. Forgive them. Don't harbor anger towards them. But if they want out let them out.

[SteveLW]

As far as what LH says. LH is a jerk and you should ignore him. Kidding!! Lol LH along with a few other posters brings the very important message that you can thrive after D. That D isn't a ending, it is a beginning. We all come here terrified of D, but the truth is that sometimes we needed a D and didn't realize it.

I came here hurting and in pain. What I found was caring people that give Frank, honest, straightforward advice. Sugar coating does nothing for anyone. The reason you know these folks care is that they are here, reading and responding, for no other reason than that they care. No one gets paid, they are just here to help.

Hope that helps. I know it helped me.

[SteveLW]

Another thing we see a lot here is LBSs being in denial about the possibility of their WAS being in an A. Here are some facts:

- In the vast majority of cases, there is an A, whether an EA or PA
- The reason it is so common is that most WASs are like monkeys resting on a branch. They won't leave their current branch until they find another one that the feel can support them
- The fact that a WAS is willing to walk away from their marriage is the first indicator of an A
- As with trying to hold on for dear life out of love, love often makes the LBS ignore the obvious signs of an A
- The LBS is usually the last person to recognize that there is an A, though the indicators are obvious to others

So what are the indicators that LBSs so often miss:

- First, as stated above, their willingness to walkaway is the first indicator. I would guess that the % of the cases involving affairs where one S wants out of a marriages is in the high 90s.
- Significant periods of time where the WAS's whereabouts are unknown and unaccounted for
- Suddenly needing to work late or having a lot of after work hour work activities
- Always on their phone
- Secretive with their phone
- Long trips to the restroom
- Sits in their car for longs periods of time, either at home or other places
- Lots of "I am going out" without an explanation of where they are going
- If you use GPS to keep track of each other (Life360, etc) and they suddenly turn their GPS off
- Talks about or mentions alot another person (usually a member of the opposite sex)
- Change in grooming and dressing habits
- Suddenly interested in things they were never interested in before
- They stop dressing and undressing in front of you
- They no longer show affection or want to have sex
- They suddenly want sex a lot more (usually with a lack of affection otherwise)
- Anything that seems out of character with no clear explanation
- Start getting up much earlier or staying up much later than normal
- You have a feeling in your gut

Do not dismiss the power of that last bullet point. In both of my W's EAs, I just suddenly had a "feeling" something wasn't right. Maybe it was subtle clues, like being aggravated about having to take care of normal household chores that she normally did (like cooking dinner for the family), or suddenly she was going to bed at 2-3am. Whatever it was I could tell you stories in both cases where I suddenly had a gut instinct that something was amiss.

Why I think this is important, to watch for these signs? Because in both cases of EAs for my W, I was the one confronted and initiated BD. The reason I think that is important from a DBing standpoint is that if you are attuned to what is going on and you stay alert to the signs of above, you confronting them earlier than them getting to the point where they are ready and stating they want to walkaway is huge.

In my W's first EA, I confronted her and she immediately said she didn't want a D. I am not sure, but I believe the EA had been going on, starting slowly, for no more than 2 months when I caught it. By my catching it and confronting I shortcut the EA process, which if you aren't aware of how they work is very iterative. First, small, "harmless" flirting. Then discussions of dissatisfaction in their current relationships. Then more, suggestive flirting. Then pining to be together with one another, either sexually or relationship-wise. Though the wanting to be with each other sexually happens much earlier. It can then progress to virtual sex, exchanging erotic photographs, etc. And I believe all EAs are eventually destined for a PA, though some die on the vine before that point. And eventually will result in the person being willing to become a WAS. Very few start an EA with the intent of leaving their current MR, but the evolution of that EA eventually gets them there.

But by confronting it early, my W had just started into the pining phase. (It was still very powerful and an addiction for her, an addiction that took a while to break.) The longer it went on the less likely her reaction of "I don't want a D" would have been.

And in fact in her second one, just a little over 2 years ago, it had progressed way beyond the pining phase. They were deep in the virtual sex and erotic photo sharing phase. Now, I think this second one was a lot different. The first one happened mostly out of a chance encounter with the AP on social media (a high school reunion site). Couple that with some marital issues between us, it blossomed from just getting reacquainted to a full blown EA, and maybe more if not discovered by me. The second one was much more devious. She had been considering her options for months, and had gotten to the point of actually going out and looking for potential APs. Instead of becoming a walkaway due to the EA, the EA was because she was already willing to walkaway. The second greatly spends up the timeline mentioned above.

But still, even in the second EA, she had not arrived at the point where she was ready to proactively BD. I believe it was only a matter of weeks before it would have happened, but still I made her pull the trigger before she was fully ready. In fact, one of the pieces of evidence I found prior to confronting her was that she had been looking at apartments in the area. So she was getting close.

The point is that a vigilant LBS, that can as early as possible recognize the existence of an A, can improve their chances by discovering the A and confronting their yet-to-be WAS before they are ready to proactively BD. Remember, BD is a long time in coming. Very few WAS meet their AP, and then the next day BD their LBS. It is a process, over a long period of time, where they've convinced themselves that the branch they are ready to jump to can sustain their weight.

The fact that so many LBS come here after BD and are convinced there is no A, or at least completely ignorant to the fact there is one, amazed me. I think denial is a big part of it. But the sooner the A is discovered, and the WAS is confronted, the more likely you are to move to R. IF you still want to after you find out about the affair.

Sorry for the novel. Just something else I've been thinking about lately.

[BobP]

Steve85, I wish I read this most recent post a year ago. I almost feel sick to my stomach. I think it's accurate.

I knew my wife and the eventual OM had a good friendship and I trusted them both. No lights ever went off in my head because of the age difference. I wouldn't have suspected that she would have this kind of interest in him.

The other thing is she had been active in trying to set him up with women. Just 6 days prior to their first physical contact (as reported by her) he had been lamenting to us both how he felt he had "blown it" with another woman by going too fast and how dating in the modern era was different from what he remembered in the mid 1960s. I think at the very least their communications had probably crossed a line that I, if I had known, would not have considered appropriate, and probably consisted of a lot of information about our own problems. I do know for a fact from a reliable source my W made the decision to divorce weeks before this.

Clearly I needed to have been much more vigilant.

[BlueSea]

I think denial is a big part of it. But the sooner the A is discovered, and the WAS is confronted, the more likely you are to move to R.

Steve - As always you are on point with your advice. I was in denial and am not any longer. There is an A. Can you please tell me what / how is the best way to confront a WAS on this? I know this may be completely evident to everyone but I do not know if this should be a discussion of: "your out" or "you can not live here and do that" or "its either me or her" - do ultimatums even work for WAS? I guess I need to know the framework of this confrontation is for the sole reason of kicking him out of the house?

Also, any ideas on how the WAS will respond? So that I can be prepared for that.

Thank you for everyone's input. (as an aside, if you read pp, I will try to man-up and not get too sensitive, I realize its all coming from a good place, and I am beyond appreciative. I legit do want advice from those that have walked this path before.)

[LH19]

[quote=MistySeaSteve - As always you are on point with your advice. I was in denial and am not any longer. There is an A. Can you please tell me what / how is the best way to confront a WAS on this? I know this may be completely evident to everyone but I do not know if this should be a discussion of: "your out" or "you can not live here and do that" or "its either me or her" - do ultimatums even work for WAS? I guess I need to know the framework of this confrontation is for the sole reason of kicking him out of the house? [/quote]

The thing is you don't have to do any of that. In fact you shouldn't. That's the key.

Prepare yourself for the fact that you're unlikely to ever get any remorse or any type of apology.

You are right that it [censored], and it's ok to be angry about it, that's part of processing all of this. Allow yourself to feel all of it and don't worry about it for a minute.

Realistically someone having an affair like this is usually a "last straw" versus a spur of the moment decision. In most relationships needs don't get met, resentments build up, and just pile up over time. When you're living in the same space there's a lot of motivation to compromise and keep the peace, but usually under the surface there's stuff brewing that isn't getting discussed, usually because both people convince themselves that it's just a temporary issue and will go away on its own.

I read somewhere that for people in a relationship to characterize it as "happy", positive interactions need to outweigh negative ones by a ratio of 7:1. For every one time you come away from an exchange annoyed, you have to come away from seven others feeling good. That's a pretty difficult thing to achieve for most people. If you're shy of that, the resentment snowball is growing.

An affair is escapism for sure, and its usually the result of a chance opportunity, or a thousand micro-escalations that happened without any forethought. What it's really a symptom of, however, is conflict avoidance.

For a relationship to be successful both people need to be willing to blow it up on occasion, argue it out and be prepared to walk if a compromise can't be reached. That takes a lot of strength and self-confidence. For more often people stuff it down and pave over it and eventually you're sitting on a volcano that's ready to blow.

Point is, regardless of the affair one or both of you weren't happy. Usually its just a matter of timing in terms of who pulls the rip cord first.

That's why it's now important to separate the desire for the person, from the desire for resumption of control, stability, and positive validation. Your brain is telling you that getting H back will restore these things, but it won't.

So ask yourself, what do you want and why do you want it?

[Traveler]

Hi Misty,

Also, any ideas on how the WAS will respond?

I've not been in this situation, but I've seen it play out here dozens of times. They usually respond with a mix of DENIAL and RELIEF.

Denial - They'll gaslight you about the existence, extent, duration, and beginnings of the affair unless you're certain about them. Unless you have evidence, you're paranoid and delusional. If you do have evidence, prepare for them to lie about anything it doesn't directly prove.

Relief - Once it's out in the open, the shady business is behind them, and they're no longer doing anything wrong. Your eyes are open and it's your choice whether to accept it or leave.

how is the best way to confront a WAS on this?

What about IF you should confront? You should only confront if you're certain there's an affair and you're ready to take action about it. Words like, "You have to choose between her and I!" are not action. Otherwise, you've just shown your hand and either look paranoid (if they go the denial route) or feeble (if they go the relief route) or maybe both at the same time (if they go both routes--it's possible!).

[SteveLW]

I think denial is a big part of it. But the sooner the A is discovered, and the WAS is confronted, the more likely you are to move to R.

Steve - As always you are on point with your advice. I was in denial and am not any longer. There is an A. Can you please tell me what / how is the best way to confront a WAS on this? I know this may be completely evident to everyone but I do not know if this should be a discussion of: "your out" or "you can not live here and do that" or "its either me or her" - do ultimatums even work for WAS? I guess I need to know the framework of this confrontation is for the sole reason of kicking him out of the house?

Also, any ideas on how the WAS will respond? So that I can be prepared for that.

Thank you for everyone's input. (as an aside, if you read pp, I will try to man-up and not get too sensitive, I realize its all coming from a good place, and I am beyond appreciative. I legit do want advice from those that have walked this path before.)

I am a confronter by nature. However, I since learned from this forum the right way to do it. I think I handled confronting her okay, but I could have done a lot better.

So here is my advice. When you are ready to confront it you say as little as possible:

"I know what is going on. I know what you are doing. And with whom.'

Then stop. He will deny, deflect, get angry, plead for more info, etc. Here is the thing. Never tell him what you know, or how you know. Leave at the fact that you know.

The mistake most make is to tell what and how. All this does, unless the WAS is ready to walk right then, is to cause the WAS to go deep undercover with their affair. If you say "I saw the text messages on your phone", guess what? His phone will go on lock down like never before. If you tell them what you know, they will gaslight you.

So leave it at "I know" and no more.

No ultimatums do not work. Either they will agree and then sneak around (remember you are dealing with a lying cheater here), or they will just blatantly break it and see if you follow through. So never give an ultimatum UNLESS you are willing to follow through on the promise made with the ultimatum.

A follow-up question to this line of questioning is usually "how will I know when the A is over and he really wants to come back?"

The answer is: you will know without any doubt when he is serious about returning to the MR. On the A being over, when his behavior is consistent over a long period of time, then you can be sure it is over. Do not trust words.