I've watched all the videos. About halfway through Divorce Remedy. I'm right at two weeks past "the email", which was essentially she wanting a separation and divorce and we need to figure out how to transition this best for the kids and that this is not a cry for help or bluff, but that it's serious and nothing left to talk about.
Due to some special financial circumstances, she said that she knew that I needed time and that I could stay in the house for a while, but that we needed a clear separation. We have been sleeping separate for a while and I spent over a year away from home as an involuntary guest of the federal govt. Been home about 4 months, but she claims that this all started long ago and it's clear that nothing is going to change.
I then made the typical initial mistakes of clinging/pursuing, because I have in fact done quite a bit of changing during my involuntary sabbatical, but those changes were somewhat blurred during my readjustment to the family and the subsequent virus quarantine stress.
Nevertheless, here we are and only option left to me is DR. However, I'm barely starting to implement anything and already may have made a mistake. Last week, my wife managed to engage me in a round of long text messages where I made the mistake again of explaining my defenses. Which she culminated in a renewed request that we talk about moving forward with the separation/divorce.
Now my typical response to such a request to talk is procrastination and avoidance, which naturally got us to this point, as my wife would typically badger me for quite a while before such a conversation. Meanwhile, after making myself a bit scarce for a couple days, yesterday afternoon she asked me for help on a project for my daughter and also asked about where I was going last night as I was again leaving to make myself scarce.
So this morning after going for a long walk, I decided to do something different while kids were still asleep and bring up the conversation I was dreading before she had to ask again. Out of character for me. Unfortunately, I probably should have asked this question here before such a conversation.
Evidently, it caught her off guard, when I asked if she wanted to talk about it right then. She said she guessed so, but the first question was how quickly I could move out of the house. And then my mistake. See, my wife makes significantly more money than I, due to the incarceration. She is financially able to move out immediately if she wanted, whereas I'm not suppose to move anywhere while on probation. Which is basically what I said to her. That sent her into a frenzy. She had this all figured out that I would "leave peacefully for the sake of the children" and she would continue on as she did last year. In addition, she revealed that she knew that I can't afford living on my own and thus she understood that I may need to live with my parents in another town for a while to satisfy the probation officer.
The argument then dissolved into a history of why I caused all of this. At which point, I realized my mistake and stated that if she wanted to rehash the past then fine let's do that with a therapist coach. And then I ungracefully made my escape.
So now the immediate question is whether I should move out of house and if so when? And along those lines, should I fight to stay in the house? Again, in my current situation, under typical Texas guidelines, I should be able to stay in the house, and even get temporary spousal support. Of course that's typical in reverse male/female situation, so I am fighting that uphill battle. I do have the additional argument that the federal govt doesn't want me to change anything, as well as the sentimental argument that I've already missed the graduation of my son and I should be able to spend a bit more time at home with my youngest.
So, my one thought is that if I stay in the house, then it means that my wife is not just kicking me out and keeping the rest of her life the same, but rather she must pursue her "happiness through divorce" by leaving the house. Not that I would force her to leave, I would just fight to make sure the judge doesn't make me leave.
The other thought is that I'm causing undue pain, as I really want her to be happy. Even though I don't think she will find happiness through divorce, should I let her pursue it and play the long game to win her back later.
Or, am I looking at this all wrong? I know that I still need to finish the book and dig through these forums.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
We typically advise LBSs to stay in the house. The thing that complicates this for you is the incarceration. I am not sure if you are willing to divulge the nature of your conviction, but the reason I hesitate to advise is that I am afraid if you provoke your W, she may trump up accusations to get a RO. That could greatly complicate your situation and obviously have implications for your probation. I guess you need to tread lightly here.
IN the meantime, keep giving her time and space. GAL, 180s, and detach! Those should be your focus right now. Learn all you can about those aspects, and focus on you. Also, continue to be the best father you can be.
You really only have one choice here....and that is to let her go. So let her go to get her back. Trying to force a R will only push her further away. Remove all pressure and pursuit. And whatever you do do not start any more R talks! Even if it is "out of character". One of the first rules of DB is to not start R talks, and to listen and validate if she does.
I would look into what it would take for you to move successfully under the terms of your probation in case it come s to that.
Shane, you've been through a lot. You may want to look into some IC. You are dealing with a lot of things right now.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Thanks everyone. My conviction was for making a false/misleading statement to a federal investigator. I was not involved in the illegal activity of my client, nor aware of it. But at the beginning of the investigation I was purposefully vague when the govt called to ask questions. If you happen to follow politics, its very similar to what they did to General Flynn.
Consequently, a RO is very unlikely. And in fact the department of justice will tell you that they prefer that you stay in your own home as that is the best way to reintegrate into society. I'm following all their rules.
Another consequence is the loss of my law license, and thus I am way under-employed. Thankfully, my wife has never cared about the money that I made and always encourage a more humble approach to career. I am now working at Lowe's earning substantially less than I was, as well as substantially less than my spouse. There is a realistic expectation that a good divorce attorney could get me staying in the house as well as temporary spousal support. Child custody would likely be evenly split and there is only one kid left underage, so child support is unlikely either way. When the third child hits 18 and graduates in three years, there would likely be a court expectation that we sell the house and split the proceeds, or that one spouse refinances and pays off the other.
Naturally, my goal is to save the marriage, thus the reason that I'm here. I've been somewhat anticipating the empty nest while also recognizing that we would need some help during that transition.
One of the first things that I picked up on when starting to read the book and watch the videos, was how Michele talked about therapists/counselors vs marriage coaching. I think this is exactly the problem we've had! We went down the path of marriage therapy that rehashed the past, leading to the "need" for individual therapy to understand history. While I think the individual therapy certainly helped me personally, it never helped the marriage. And I can now see that it was because we never had a true marriage coach that was helping us find solutions. But all that is for the far future, hopefully.
In the meantime, I appreciate the support.
Incidentally, I never realized until the past week just how much music out there advocates for saving relationships by doing the opposite of DB. For that matter, most tv dramas and movies do the same. Ugh!
Its no wonder that an LBS behaves as they do!
Thanks again for the support. I'll start a different thread that is more historical fact driven just for background, but I do appreciate the quick and concise response to my question!
I'll start a different thread that is more historical fact driven just for background, but I do appreciate the quick and concise response to my question!
Just stick with this thread until it gets to 100 posts
She's done for now. That means you're past the phase of the trial where you argue for the defense. It's time to listen, understand, and validate her decision. Do some 180s (good behavior). Her interest may pique!
Originally Posted by ShaneG
I have in fact done quite a bit of changing during my involuntary sabbatical, but those changes were somewhat blurred during my readjustment to the family and the subsequent virus quarantine stress.
What changes did you try but fail to make?
Originally Posted by ShaneG
Last week, my wife managed to engage me in a round of long text messages where I made the mistake again of explaining my defenses.
Like your defense for why your changes didn't stick?
Originally Posted by ShaneG
But at the beginning of the investigation I was purposefully vague when the govt called to ask questions. If you happen to follow politics, its very similar to what they did to General Flynn.
You broke the law, but your wife faced the consequences of becoming a single mom for a year, without having the perks of someone to snuggle or sleep with. Were you two facing issues before you became incarcerated? Was she so incredible as to wait for you, or is it possible she started an affair while you were in prison?
Originally Posted by ShaneG
That sent her into a frenzy. She had this all figured out
Staying is usually right. Her being in a frenzy is an opportunity to validate.
Originally Posted by ShaneG
The argument then dissolved into a history of why I caused all of this. At which point, I realized my mistake and stated that if she wanted to rehash the past then fine let's do that with a therapist coach. And then I ungracefully made my escape.
Yes, if you argued with her, you made a mistake. "No arguing" is a great 180 to make. Disengaging was a good choice. Next time, try to listen and validate for a bit before you have to disengage.
Originally Posted by ShaneG
Even though I don't think she will find happiness through divorce, should I let her pursue it and play the long game to win her back later.
Yes. You can't stop her (and shouldn't try). We usually advocate cooperating but not doing the legwork.
Primarily appreciating each day. Living in the present. Following my wife's lead in keeping life simple and focusing on the family instead of building a career/business. Lot's of opportunity to see/hear about how lucky I was versus 95% of the population. Overall staying focused on my wife and family. Everything else is second.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Like your defense for why your changes didn't stick?
There was an adjustment period, that we all knew would happen. Having basic freedoms again such as spending time with family, when/where/what to eat, what time to do just about everything, privacy (vs 160 men living in a large room together on bunk beds and sharing a bathroom), etc. There was also the transition back into the family. Went through quite a bit of "group therapy/classes" talking about the transition back to family and what to do and not to do. Primarily being to become background and just observe the family dynamic. Watch and learn how everyone has changed. I was only gone for 15 months, but that's actually quite a bit of time for teenager changes. And obviously my wife had been running everything, so it was important not to interfere, but simply support. Although that was suppose to be balanced by relieving her as she chose to give up any responsibility.
However, one of the first big hurdles was realizing exactly how bad the financial situation was, which my wife had basically kept a secret. So things that we all fantasized about while inside (lots of talk about what to eat for example) was not really an option because we simply could not afford to go out to eat a nice dinner. We did go to movies a couple times because my son worked in the theater and thus it was really cheap. A date night discussion turned into a heated conversation about not having the money, which was compounded indirectly by my parents. Throughout my incarceration, my parents had been sending $500-$1000 per month to my wife. Part of that came to me for commissary. Part of it was used up in gas/travel bills since my wife came to visit nearly every weekend she was permitted. (3hr each way drive, so gas and food). 3 days after I was home, my wife's suburban went "clunk", which turned out to be a wheel bearing replacement. I called my dad and found out they hadn't sent money since they didn't think it was needed because I was "home". Dad did come through with a large check that was a catchup of "missed birthday and Christmas" to me. I also with the help of youtube learned to change wheel bearings. But my wife was immediately on the warpath against my parents and basically refused to let them come visit for several weeks.
My reaction/solution to this was (1) figuring out how to fix the car myself, (2) turning over the entire amount of my "birthday" money to her safe keeping for future emergencies, (3) hyper focusing on finding a job. That hyper focus turn to obsession and anxiety and stress and disappointment at it taking so long. I was actually working 6 weeks after coming home, but those six weeks seemed to stretch forever. And to protect the family from my moody temperament, I kind hid out in a computer screen. I was only 15 feet away in the next room and was able to listen in to everything, but in hindsight, I was definitely hiding.
Then I started working. And to put this in context, the day I started working was the same day that the local govt started lock down except for essential workers. Luckily, my employer, a big box home improvement store, was considered essential and never closed. In fact, we got busier and my part time job turned into regular 10hr days for the next six weeks. My wife works in a hospital and thus had to take extra precautions, in particular precautions to stay away from me since I was working in retail. I was making a fraction per hour than I have made since probably college, but I made up for it with taking every hour they would give me. 65-70+ hour weeks were normal for a while. After all, this is what a husband's primary role is, correct? Taking care of the family. But again, it was also a convenient way to hide.
Due to quarantining from each other, all physical contact stopped. Not that there had been much. Again, one of the fantasies when you are inside living with a bunch of men, is naturally a wild sex life. And for those that were going home to paid companions or girlfriends that were used to the life, then this may be true. For us, it was kinda awkward and had its own anxiety complicated by significant sleep problems. That being said, I was just extremely grateful to be able to hug members of my family basically anytime that I wanted and thus was relatively content. Then I was exhausted from work.
Also during this time, due to virus precautions, my therapist visits were shutdown. Not that he was great, but it at least gave me a release... which is kinda what this forum has become. Unfortunately, I was reluctant to share my problems with my wife. Hindsight...ugh... at the time justified that I should not put anymore burden on her and the last thing my therapist said was just to continue participating passively while the family adjusts. Of course he didn't know that it was his last advice to me. Nevertheless, I kinda went on autopilot. Work long hours, watch TV with kids and wife for an hour or two while eating, sleep, repeat. It was a convenient way to hide in plain site.
So about 9 weeks ago, we get into an argument about something that I can't even remember (which is driving me nuts) and she says that I've got to fix this. At the same time, I get a promotion at work, more hourly money, but less hours, so take home is the same, but I have more time at home. But at the same time, quarantine is starting to slacken and my wife starts hanging out with a friend, a lot. This friend is on her second marriage, but her husband is deployed. Between husband one and two, she raised kids from elementary through high school as a single mom and was also a bit notorious for being a bit too "single" around all the other moms (all our kids were in extracurricular together). Since her husband was deployed, my wife was "helping her cope". But really she became the emotional surrogate that my wife needed. The friend is also a bit notorious as demanding attention and always seeking to surround herself with a posse. I could see what was happening but didn't know how to break the cycle, and I think she was a big influence on getting influencing my wife to seek happiness through divorce.
I reached out to the therapist but didn't hear back. Then finally, just after my wife sends the email asking for a divorce, the therapist finally responds to my email saying that he doesn't have time for me and suggest I seek someone else. Of course by then I had started the spiral and luckily found Michele before getting too bad.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
You broke the law, but your wife faced the consequences of becoming a single mom for a year, without having the perks of someone to snuggle or sleep with. Were you two facing issues before you became incarcerated? Was she so incredible as to wait for you, or is it possible she started an affair while you were in prison?
First, hindsight, I should have fought the charges, and actually had started down that path, but then the prosecutor offered me a deal. Everything goes away that they couldn't actually prove anyways, and I plead guilty to this false statement charge, which should result in 3 months home confinement. Most importantly, the family doesn't go through the trauma of a trial, nor the uncertainty stretching over 2-3 years. I make a sacrifice and the family is better in the long run. Except, never trust a prosecutor. Judge gave me 24 months in a federal camp instead of 3 months home confinement. We fought the judges sentence and actually won, but it took 13 months to win the fight and another two months after winning to finally get out.
My wife was a rockstar through the whole thing. And I don't for a second think there was any type of affair. As for the snuggling, that's been an issue for a while because I snore like a grizzly bear. So I've been sleeping behind two closed doors in another room for years. Ultimately SSM needs to be addressed too, but that's obviously not an issue at this point.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Staying is usually right. Her being in a frenzy is an opportunity to validate.
Yes, I saw the missed opportunity slipping through my fingers, I just don't have enough experience and hesitated, then panicked.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Yes, if you argued with her, you made a mistake. "No arguing" is a great 180 to make. Disengaging was a good choice. Next time, try to listen and validate for a bit before you have to disengage.
Yes, thus the panic. I was just mumbling trying to escape because my brain couldn't catch up. Which is usually the case with our discussions, my wife is way more quick and nimble with her words. Its a major frustration with me and I tend to fumble a lot. We actually would make some progress when with a marriage counselor just because the counselor would give me time to get my thoughts out. But as I said before, what we really needed was a solution focused coach.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Yes. You can't stop her (and shouldn't try). We usually advocate cooperating but not doing the legwork.
Ultimately, when my wife does file, I will probably have to get my parents to help pay the attorney's retainer, but for now, the only thing I probably did right, was not to say anything to any of my family. Quite frankly, from the beginning, I just didn't want to hear their advice. I knew immediately that my focus would be on saving my relationship with my wife, even if I didn't know how. I suspect my family will all be super supportive by providing sympathy and telling me how awful she is. That's not what I want. I know my wife is not awful. She is very wonderful. Nobody is perfect, but I still really really want to be figuring this out with her, and not running away from her.
