I may have mentioned this before, but in addition to re-reading NMMNG as necessary, I've also been participating in some classes held by Dr. Glover as well as working specifically with a NG coach. it's been immensely helpful.
(If anyone would like the contact information, happy to share.)
Given what I've been struggling with - and with UC's wise words in my sails - our last session was about guilt, shame, and forgiveness. During the session I like to make little notes to myself in order to remember the key points but also as a reminder to flesh out and elucidate my understanding when I've had more time to let it sink in.
I wanted to share my longer thoughts on this session with everyone, first to get some feedback from the larger crowd and incorporate their perspective, but second because it might be helpful for someone who is struggling with similar issues to read.
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Is it guilt or is it shame?
It is important to separate the two. Guilt is an internalization of doing something wrong, a natural response rooted in humility and apology. It is healthy, and says, "I made a mistake and I apologize." Shame is adjacent, but much more personally harmful. Whereas both acknowledge fault and implicitly demonstrate intent to make amends, guilt acknowledges mistakes as a part of the imperfect human condition, while shame considers the mistake a part of an overall pattern of flawed brokenness. Guilt can be healthy if addressed with an empathetic, open heart and used as a learning experience; shame causes fear and staticness, leaving you not only more prone to repeat the same mistake, but locked inside of a self-damaging cycle that is very difficult to break out of.
The Importance Of Forgiving Yourself
Forgiveness is a wonderful gift, and sadly one that most people are much more likely to bestow upon others than themselves. How many times have you raked yourself over the coals for a mistake that you made, while if a close friend came to you, upset, confessing the same mistake, you'd reassure them and remind them of all the good they bring into the world? It's a simple lesson: treat yourself with kindness and compassion, just as you would anyone else that you love. Forgiveness given to you - from yourself or from others - does not mean that the offending act didn't happen, or that it didn't have impact. It is simply an acknowledgement that as a human, we make mistakes despite our best intentions. Making a mistake or hurting someone inadvertently is very different than doing so with intention; the former is forgivable, is human, and can be re-framed as a part of a larger growth story.
One small thing about my M that I can clearly recall is a handful of times where my WAW would be very hard on herself about something, and I'd stop her and say, "Hey, don't say that. You're talking about someone I love!" Of course, the internal dialogue of the NGS often says things that we'd never say about someone else, or accept to be said about someone we care about. Stay on top of this tendency, and love yourself.
I wasn't OK, but I am now
As a continuation of forgiving yourself, you might occasionally find yourself at a crossroads where you look back on past actions with remorse and a heavy heart. Remember: there is no shame in having made mistakes; that is human. There is shame however in not learning from them, and locking yourself into a shame cycle where your self-image as a broken person causes you to say static. If you commit to growth, from learning from your mistakes, to making amends for those you may have hurt, and to forgiving yourself -- there is no shame. Only growth. And with growth as a shield, you can start to re-frame that remorse as a time in your life when you were still figuring things out. You weren't OK then, but you are now.
Expectations/Resentment
Resentment, put simply, is a relationship killer. If left unchecked, it is an open wound that will only grow further infected, growing in size and seriousness until it is out of control. Very few instances of resentment are simply forgotten, and an equally small amount remain in quarantine, not spilling over and affecting other aspects of the relationship.
The #1 creator of resentment is expectations that went unfulfilled. Those expectations could be said or unsaid, implicit or explicit, one-time or a recurring theme; it doesn't matter. When your partner is expecting one thing and receives another, or worse, nothing at all, it is damaging and needs to be addressed.
Ironically, many of the most basic expectations, the ones that are consistently understood as a component of a healthy relationship, are the ones that are most frequently ignored and therefore ultimately cause the most damage. Think about what is assumed and goes without said as an expectation of your partner: you expect trust. You expect safety. You expect respect, care, and loyalty. And often, those are intertwined - you cannot have safety without trust, you cannot have loyalty without safety.
This is why for something as basic of trust, you must take a hard line, just as an alcoholic must approach alcohol with a very specific and very measured plan of action. The slippery slope is just too steep - it's far too easy to extrapolate what else your partner might be lying about; after all, if they are willing to lie about something small, who knows what other lies they might be telling?
This is not to say that you will be honest 100% of the time, without ever taking a misstep. That's impossible; we are human, not robots. But whether it is the story of Chernobyl or just about any high-profile scandal you can think of, it's always the cover-up so much more than it is the crime. Furthermore, there's a great silver living to this mistake: if you do mess up, imagine how much closer it will bring your partner to you if you show vulnerability, show contrition, and show character by owning up to the mistake. Not only do you avoid the resentment that inevitably comes as the lie unravels, but you have signaled to your partner your intentions as an honorable man, one that be relied upon and trusted with their safety.
Thank you for sharing all this information, Steve.
Your post distilled a lot of the key takeaways that I regularly think about from NMMNG, the ones that have driven my self-improvement this past year and made me really excited about my future.
Some personal thoughts I have:
1. NGs are vulnerable to accepting their partner's views as THE truth... which leads to further shame. And we justify it by thinking we are extra empathetic and compassionate. I actually think NGs need to tone down the validation more than DB would advise because of this.
2. Working on my own shame has been a huge step in my self-growth this past year.
3. Expectations in a relationship lead to resentment. Expectations on yourself lead to unhappiness as well. Like you I was a high-achiever and I think I used achievements as a way to feed my self-esteem, to an unhealthy degree. Now I work a lot on self-compassion, and accepting that I don't need to judge myself against some impossible standard.
4. I don't feel like my resentment led us down this dark path. My W harbored a lot of resentment and still does. She was unwilling to work through it in two round of MC. I can't do anything about that. I think it was the first of many obstacles we would have had to overcome. I had some resentment (SSM, feeling like she had zero interest in me while I was supposed to be there to support her 100%) that manifested in some passive-aggressive comments at times, but I would have laid it aside to work on things.
I'm in a place where I never really thought I'd be - I'm now giving some serious consideration to filing for D and getting on with my life.
In terms of how I feel, I'm very ambivalent. On one hand, I do still very much want to work on things. My physical attraction to her is still very much there, and as I've beaten into the ground on this thread, the rapport is as well. It absolutely hurts, and it makes me sad and upset to think about. I can't pretend that it doesn't. On the other hand, it's clear from her actions that she isn't in the same place, even if I take her at her word about the separation agreement.
Heart wants one thing, even if that one thing is 1% likely to be the case. I feel like I've burned through the last walls of denial that I put up: she dragged the separation agreement discussion out for a year because she didn't want to deal with it, and she only really wants it to be in place so that she gets the best terms out of the D. Actions show someone's true intent, and her true intent seems to be to D.
So I guess knowing all of that, my impulse to D is to take back control and power, because I don't think it is fair or right to be put in this situation by her, and because I can't fully move on unless the door is closed. But there's also a voice in the back of my head that is saying, "Look, see how this plays out. Expect D. Mentally and legally prepare for it. Only sign the separation agreement if the terms are what you'd be comfortable with if she walked out the door the next day. But see how it plays out."
I'm also back and forth on how I would do that if that's what I ultimately decided to cut the cord myself. Should I just file, serve, and then basically block her across everything, only communicating through my lawyer? Or should I be a little more human about it, tell her my intention, and tell her that her choice is binary: start working on this, or I'm gone?
Sigh. Have to keep reminding myself: my best days are ahead of me. I'm strong, and I'm going to be fine.
But there's also a voice in the back of my head that is saying, "Look, see how this plays out. Expect D. Mentally and legally prepare for it. Only sign the separation agreement if the terms are what you'd be comfortable with if she walked out the door the next day. But see how it plays out."
But I'm not sure about this:
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So I guess knowing all of that, my impulse to D is to take back control and power, because I don't think it is fair or right to be put in this situation by her, and because I can't fully move on unless the door is closed.
Some people don't move on even after a divorce. Moving on is a process you do. The door is closed when you decide, and sometimes people decide the door is closed and then change their minds. My wife did that very thing.
Let's say you file, what happens next and what is your vision for life moving forward?
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it's clear from her actions that she isn't in the same place, even if I take her at her word about the separation agreement.
Her actions also show that she is not ready to file, or else she would have. It doesn't take a year to do that.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Some people don't move on even after a divorce. Moving on is a process you do. The door is closed when you decide, and sometimes people decide the door is closed and then change their minds. My wife did that very thing.
Let's say you file, what happens next and what is your vision for life moving forward?
Thanks for your thoughts. I think where I'm coming from is just sort of how I am - I don't give up, I try to find any way to work a problem and hold on way too long in the process. It's only when there is strong, clear closure that I can turn my attention to something else.
I don't think much changes if I file. I continue focusing on my work, and on getting emotionally healthy through therapy, coaching and meditation. I'm not going to rush back into anything, not until I feel that I am in a place of emotional capacity to allow someone else in.
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Her actions also show that she is not ready to file, or else she would have. It doesn't take a year to do that.
Sure, but I don't attribute that to ambivalence on her part. I attribute it to just not wanting to deal with it, and wanting to get the separation agreement in place so that she gets what she feels is fair.
Could she change her mind? Sure. But I just no longer believe that there a way this works out.
Where I do have some hesitation is that I want to make sure that I decide this with a clear mind, not influenced by a conversation with a friend or on an emotional whim. Right now I am hurting and I am down because I am burning off the denial; you could probably say that choosing to file is an angry response to that. So maybe just letting it settle for awhile is fine.
I'm curious why you say you have great rapport with her?
This "file or don't file" dilemma is tough.
I suggest you ignore why she hasn't filed. It doesn't matter. It could be for any number of reasons:
- leaving the door open - stringing you out to negotiate - doesn't want to deal with the hassle of doing it - doesn't want to be the "bad guy" (see, it was SteveS who gave up!)
I'm curious why you say you have great rapport with her?
So, it's anecdotal, but every time we do meet up to discuss what's going on, we end up actually discussing things for 15 minutes and the rest just catching up. She makes me laugh so easily, and vice versa. As an example, she has some anxiety around going to the doctor, where she gets really worried about taking her blood pressure. It's irrational as hell, but there's just something about it that I find charming and we shared a nice moment between us when we were last talking about it. It's just a part of who she is. I don't know, I just read so many threads on here about people who can't stand each other and have nothing to say to each other; that's just not us.
Don't get me wrong, I don't read anything more into it than I think we'd be able to be good friends if we decided that's what we wanted. But if in the unlikely event we tried to reconcile, starting from a place where we clearly still get along and appreciate the other person seems like a good foundation to work from.
I don't know, I just read so many threads on here about people who can't stand each other and have nothing to say to each other; that's just not us.
Well Steve I can't speak for everyone when I was married for 2 years it was the best time of my life. Things were effortless before the pressures of raising children etc. It's not surprising you feel that way. Now having said that, the fact your W is chucking it after two years means she has some serious issues with her or you more then likely displayed some very serious disturbing behavior. It's rare to see people end it all after a couple years without serious issues.
I can really relate to the rapport you feel with your wife. Me and my wife are the same way. I too see a lot of sitchs where the couples cant stand each other. Its not me and my wife either. We've always been each others biggest source of laughter. Since the whole thing started we've only seen each other once or twice but even those times it seems like we would always end up laughing at some point about something or another. Which is quite crazy considering the circumstances. I dont read anything into it either because actions tell you a lot more than words but I totally get where you're coming form there.
I don't know, I just read so many threads on here about people who can't stand each other and have nothing to say to each other; that's just not us.
Well Steve I can't speak for everyone when I was married for 2 years it was the best time of my life. Things were effortless before the pressures of raising children etc. It's not surprising you feel that way. Now having said that, the fact your W is chucking it after two years means she has some serious issues with her or you more then likely displayed some very serious disturbing behavior. It's rare to see people end it all after a couple years without serious issues.
Oh, for sure. My NG behavior was a huge, huge part of it. And it certainly wasn't all me, she brought her anxiety and intimacy issues to the table. So it wasn't all sunshine and roses.
I guess it is somewhat incongruous. She chose to leave after a little over two years, which would certainly imply some big issues. But if she thought I was emotionally abusive or a terrible person, then she would have immediately filed and we wouldn't have the rapport that we do.
I guess it doesn't really matter. As UC said, it's probably not all that productive to spend time thinking about why she's acting the way she is.
