For what it’s worth? It’s worth absolutely nothing. Ready for the Universal Bullsh!t Translator?
Blameshifting: “incorporate the things you prevented him from doing”, “coerce him into staying”
Minimising responsibility: “it’s an addiction”, “this is your choice (to D)” (subtext: and harm the children)
Self-pity: “tearing him apart for years and eating at his soul”
Entitlement: “OW is someone he’ll think about occasionally with fondness” - how dare he say this to you?
Hedging: “part of his decision is motivated by fear”, “will do everything he can”, “wants to work towards it”
Self-preservation: “realised he doesn’t want the new apartment” (subtext: doesn’t want to give up creature comforts, doesn’t want to pay alimony/child support, doesn’t want to lose the nice house you share)
Manipulation: “I love you and never stopped loving you” - shades of “he hits me because he loves me”
Image management: “it’s best for the children”, “don’t want to be a selfish liar”, the change of tune after his family applied pressure
WEAK. This is just fear of consequences again. He doesn’t want to be a selfish liar? Well, he is one. People don’t change their character at 40 years old. This dude is fully baked and sorry to say, he’s a sh!t biscuit. He’ll always be a liar and a cheater. An alcoholic is an alcoholic regardless if they ever have another drink.
You can’t have love without respect. He has consistently demonstrated a profound lack of respect for you. Can you see the jabs of disrespect peppered throughout this grand declaration? You seem to have gotten to the point where you no longer respect him. Can you ever respect him again after all of this weak behaviour?
I hate that he's putting you through all this again, may. It does seem convenient that all of these words come when you are finally ready to move forward for you and the children, and when he must have noticed that his usual tricks weren't working this time to pull you back in. If AP called him tomorrow with some emergency, would he not go right back to the same "I just can't know for sure!" place? I realize it's much easier to be sitting miles and miles away saying all this, not the same as being there on the ground, in your shoes. Do you feel your patience wearing thin? ((may))
For what it’s worth? It’s worth absolutely nothing. Ready for the Universal Bullsh!t Translator?
Blameshifting: “incorporate the things you prevented him from doing”, “coerce him into staying”
Minimising responsibility: “it’s an addiction”, “this is your choice (to D)” (subtext: and harm the children)
Self-pity: “tearing him apart for years and eating at his soul”
Entitlement: “OW is someone he’ll think about occasionally with fondness” - how dare he say this to you?
Hedging: “part of his decision is motivated by fear”, “will do everything he can”, “wants to work towards it”
Self-preservation: “realised he doesn’t want the new apartment” (subtext: doesn’t want to give up creature comforts, doesn’t want to pay alimony/child support, doesn’t want to lose the nice house you share)
Manipulation: “I love you and never stopped loving you” - shades of “he hits me because he loves me”
Image management: “it’s best for the children”, “don’t want to be a selfish liar”, the change of tune after his family applied pressure
WEAK. This is just fear of consequences again. He doesn’t want to be a selfish liar? Well, he is one. People don’t change their character at 40 years old. This dude is fully baked and sorry to say, he’s a sh!t biscuit. He’ll always be a liar and a cheater. An alcoholic is an alcoholic regardless if they ever have another drink.
You can’t have love without respect. He has consistently demonstrated a profound lack of respect for you. Can you see the jabs of disrespect peppered throughout this grand declaration? You seem to have gotten to the point where you no longer respect him. Can you ever respect him again after all of this weak behaviour?
Scout, I’m right with you on all points. May, I hope you read this over several times.
So what happened when he emailed her (plan A)? Maybe he has finally missed out on that opportunity and so he is moving back to you (plan B)?
I don’t understand why he gets to come and go from this M as he pleases? And with no regard for how this affects you? His entitlement is troubling. Why do you continue to allow this?
It is one thing to be sorry and have regrets. It is quite another to have genuine remorse and empathy for what he has put you through. I would think after all the damage he has caused, a good man would not keep trying to jump back in when he feels you slipping away. Someone worthy of your acceptance, would more so want to understand your emotional process and how he can support you through the trauma. He should hope that one day you may be interested in Ring but not expect it or even ask for It. How dare he!
Right now after jerking you around for years, lying and cheating, justifying and blame shifting, he should just show you a better person — he does that with actions and consistency over time. Months and years. That’s it. He hasn’t done this ever or now, and so I don’t see any reason to trust him or consider taking him back.
Move on, May. Kick him out. . Let him do the real work this time! Then down the road you might see a better man and make a decision. This is years in the making and will be many more years in the fixing. Just focus on you and the girls now, start your own healing without him.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
May, if my H comes back to me crawling on his knees right now asking to reconcile, I would ask him to sign the divorce papers (with terms favorable to me) first before anything. So my advice for you is to protect your assets and custody rights before indulging your H in his wishful thinking. Please don’t go down that road again with him.
He says he will sign a post-nup agreement.
Originally Posted by wooba
No. He does not have a point here. You “prevented” him from doing what?
Originally Posted by scout12
Blameshifting: “incorporate the things you prevented him from doing”,
This is around one of my 180s, and I fully acknowledge my faults here. After we had children, I had a lot of guilt around spending money and time on myself, and therefore did not. I also then got very angry with H if he ever wanted to do things on his own, things I wasn't interested in doing, like go to a certain concert or a football game. I would get incredibly angry with him and try to make him feel guilty if he wanted to do something for himself. For instance, he loves surfing, it is his sanity-making exercise and form of meditation. I would get super annoyed if he would go more than say once a week because I felt he was choosing himself over supporting me by being there in the morning to feed the kids breakfast, etc. When the truth is, it is no big deal, he should absolutely have the freedom to go surfing some mornings and I should be able to go to yoga some mornings. But I did all I could to guilt him into not doing those things, because I felt guilty about doing them myself.
He always encouraged me, though, to do things for myself, get a massage, go to yoga, go out with girlfriends in the evenings, etc. This was one of my 180s -- being OK with doing things separately and letting go of the guilt around that-- and truly something I'm grateful for, for myself, that I've made this change. I'm happier and healthier for it for myself and I truly don't care at all when he goes surfing in the morning or whatever. Anyway, it isn't really relevant to the discussion at this point, except that he didn't bring it up in a "I want" way. He actually said, you've changed too, you know, and brought up this 180 of mine. And said he appreciates it and wants that ability for us both to do things we enjoy, together and apart, in M2.0. he used it as a positive example.
Originally Posted by Ginger
Honestly, may. It seems like he doesn’t want the divorce to be on him. He wants it to be on you .
How many times has he done this before ?
Third time's a charm, right? (jk) He ended the A in February after we went through discernment counseling (BD for learning it was a PA and had been going on for 2 years was 12/30). He had a business trip to her city planned and I had set that as a deadline for him to end the affair, or we were done. We did well for four months then she reached out to say she was moving on. Then he blocked her and said he was ending all communication with her at the end of July as it was a condition I'd set to go on a trip as a family, otherwise we were done. Now this Monday he told me (without having contacted her yet) that he was unhappy and wanted to S.
Pattern has been, he says he thinks he wants to leave to be with AP, she's the love of his life blah blah blah. I flip out, eventually settle down and start dropping the rope. I have held it very clear that we won't be friends in a Ded situation which he cannot seem to handle. The more I drop the rope the more he leans back in until he decides to stay. I am very, very tired of this ridiculous and weak wishy-washy flip-flopping.
Originally Posted by BluWave
So what happened when he emailed her (plan A)? Maybe he has finally missed out on that opportunity and so he is moving back to you (plan B)?
He recreated the email for me because he had erased it. It basically said I know it's been awhile, I'm having a really hard time, I don't expect a response, I still care about you and please know you can always reach out to me if you need to talk. Stupid for a whole host of reasons. He said he was embarrassed he did it and it was weak. She hasn't responded. He told me his decision about 12 hours after he sent that email. He said her not responding isn't playing a part in his choice but I am not putting any credence into that.
Scout, Blu, Cardinal, Ginger-- I share much of your skepticism.
Originally Posted by LH19
Well May as the saying goes"actions not words".
Yes, assuming I stick around to see the actions.
Here's where I am at the moment. Thinking about my paths forward, making sure any choices I make are in alignment with my own values. I feel so much more empowered and in control right now than I think I ever have throughout all of this. I think if the last time around he'd given me this same speech, I would have felt trapped because I could never authentically make the decision to leave the M. Now, I feel that is a potential path for me. I'm not sure it is the one I'll make today, but I feel strong and in charge of my own future in a way I haven't in a long time.
I have no need to make this decision today, or tomorrow, or next week. I want to get that post-nup written up and signed and then see where I am and how I feel, and how he is behaving. I am going to read through my threads from Jan/Feb and again June/July to see how I felt then and see what (if anything) feels different now. I will say, honestly, that what he said and how he said it felt very, very different than it ever has in the past. And he has NEVER said to me what I want to hear, as you all well know.
Thanks to all of you for your continued support and words... it is really helpful. I'm going to go make passionfruit ice cream with D10 now xoxo
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I am glad you are holding off on making a decision. You have been at this (posting with us) for a year now and he has been cheating for 2.5 years. So there is no hurry. I'll say again, I don't think there is even really a decision here because he has not shown you a person worth choosing. That doesn't happen with a sad face, an apology and promises. It happens when he is committed to doing the hard work and he shows you those slow, consistent changes over time. It takes many months and more likely years. I know you know that already, but I also know when you are in that moment, it is human nature to want to grasp those feelings of relief. Those feelings are fleeting. Really, all emotions are fleeting.
My biggest concern for you is that you over analyze so many details, which leads to justifications, and then the bigger picture becomes overshadowed. I have watched you do this before and so I want to caution you to that. I tend to think that in life, and in relationships as well, our greatest strengths are inversely our biggest obstacles. Esther Perel discusses this often in her work -- what initially attracts us to our partner is ultimately what also leads to destroying the relationship. It is as if we are attracted to this unmet need in childhood and then that attachment style goes unchecked and it backfires. I see you as this very intelligent, loving and loyal person. I see you wanting to understand him, what happened in your M and make sense of things. But there are some things that just do not make sense and we need to come to a point where we accept that.
You might want to make sense of why he did what he did and that he is showing all of these signs of improvement (you said that each time by the way) but it doesn't matter. What matters is the bigger picture. He has been dishonest, selfish and not prioritized you or his family in a very long time. You continue to believe what he tells you. You honestly just believe what he told you about his email to her? I find myself just shaking my head more and more with every month that I read your posts. I feel sad for you. I want to see a May that really, truly values herself and how she deserves to be treated. I know you are an amazing, loving and loyal woman and you want to see the good in him. That is your strong suit but that has now become your greatest weakness. Because you have taught him how to treat you. He has treated you very poorly for a long time and he will continue to do so until you say enough is enough! Why are you even entertaining the idea of taking him back when he has again dragged you through the mud???
I don't see that there is a decision to be made here. He sees it that way because you have allowed him to lie, cheat and then come and go as it suits him. There is only a decision to stay married to a good and honest man. For someone as corrupt as him, that will take a very long time to fix and also to prove to you. What decision can you make without all of that first?
I think your thread has come so far away from the basic principles we learn here. Please go back and read Sandi's 37 rules and think about what they mean and why. The overall focus is that we separate oursleves from someone that treats us badly and rejects us. Then we focus on ourself and our kids and do the healing. We have to heal ourself so we can be strong and be able to make that tough decision if it ever comes around. If that other person comes back around and shows us someone that deserves another chance, then we are better equipped to do the hard work. In your sitch, that has never happened, and worse, he keeps trying to break you down and you allow it. .... It is really simple and doesn't involve the frequent over analysis, which in your sitch I fear has become a lot of justification and excuses for what he is doing. I think you want to believe he is a good man because you love the idea of him and the family, or you still love what you could have had.
Sorry for the 2by4. I just don't understand or believe why you are or will just allow all this BS again and again. This was strike 3. He's out.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
I don't really have anything to contribute that others haven't already articulated (better than I could, too), but it does really come off as he is still shirking responsibility in terms of not wanting to be the person to end it. If AP had answered that email, do you think this convo would happen? If you look at his actions, even within that 24 hour span, they don't align with what he is saying. I am sure he wants what he is saying to be true, but he can't speak it into existence - he has to actually do it. He's put off making a decision on this for years - and still can't really do it even when the variable of you knowing about it appears.
Have you talked to your mom about it? I know you wanted to but he asked you to put it off.
I'm really thinking about everything you have all posted here. Blu, I know I'm an overanalyzer. it is who I am. I will research online for hours before buying ANYTHING. It is really important to me to know that I am making the right choice for me and my kids. TBH if I *don't* look at it from every angle, I know I'll have regrets in the end. D is hard. I know it. I believe there is something better on the other side for me, absolutely. But I believe in marriage. I believe in the vows that I made. Even though my H has turned out to be a total $hithead, unfortunately he is the father of my children and it simply isn't all that easy for me to wash my hands of him and walk away. it goes against a lot of what I believe.
I still haven't made a decision. At this point I want to focus on what is good for me, in this moment, and that is getting a post-nup agreed to and signed. (Wooba, thanks for this idea to still move forward with a post-nup-- having that security no matter what, in this moment where he's feeling like he's feeling, is really important to me going forward.) All this other stuff can wait. I am in no hurry. He is pushing a little, not a lot, because apparently he really liked this apartment and needs to tell them by tomorrow. Too bad, so sad. I have been very patient and if he isn't willing to give me even a fraction of that patience back, then, this is all easy.
I know this is going to sound like I'm defending him, or defending my inability to make a decision, but I do want to point out that kicking someone out who is saying he doesn't want to leave is a lot harder than not taking someone back who has already left. At least, it feels like that to me, from where I sit today. What is the difference, really, in letting him prove through his actions with him in the house rather than once we are separated and traumatized the children? MWD in her books consistently say in-house separation is better than leaving, as long as you can handle it. The DB coach I had said the same thing.
The cage door is open. He has an apartment waiting for him. The only thing I can say to him that would make him go is that I am choosing D and promise to be friends with you, that I'll work with you through this D as a team sport and we'll all be happy on the other side. I know if I said that he would say OK and take the apartment. But. I can't say that honestly. I will NOT be friends with him. D is NOT a team sport. I will prioritize the children absolutely. But we will not be friends. And honesty, to me, is a core value. I will not be inauthentic to who I am and what is important to me, even if taking that path is harder and more painful. I have said all along I can't be the one to pull the trigger, but I know there will be a time when I'm ready. I do see that path in front of me right now. I can't say that I think it is the best choice for me and the children, authentically, today. But nor do I need to make that choice today.
We have had a few conversations in which he says he feels like I'm the one arguing to S and he's the one defending the M. He said it feels like I've been the lifeboat supporting our M for a long time, and he's been trying to sink it, only focused on himself and his selfishness. Now I'm realizing that its all been about him and my needs matter, at the same time that he is choosing our M, and he feels like I'm sticking a knife and ripping a giant hole in my lifeboat before his is blown up. Can't we wait until we row ashore for me to let go? (Scout, was it you that called him an emotional vampire? I feel like this shows that so clearly... he takes and takes and takes until I say I can't anymore, then he asks for just a bit more.)
SamCal, I haven't. I really don't want to until I'm absolutely sure. You're right, too, that 24 hours (or 48 or wherever we are right now) is a very, very short time. His actions since he made the decision and told me what he is choosing have been consistent, but that is a drop in the bucket. I don't know what he would be doing right now if she'd responded. Perhaps it would have given him the fuel he needs to take the apartment. What he is saying to me is that it has never been enough, his feelings for her, to actually leave. And when it finally came to the precipice, where we are as close as we have ever been to actually divorcing, all he had to do was take that final step, he couldn't do it. And so he knows he can't. He can't leave me and the girls. (probably more correct to say, the girls and me... he can't leave our family.)
Blu, I know I've said there is improvement every time. And it is honestly very true. He has steadfastly refused to say any of these things he's saying now, even knowing it was what I needed to hear. And I don't believe he is a cold-eyed manipulator who knows what to say to reel me back in. If he was, he would have said all this $hit before. To me, the question is less does he mean what he says right now, but more does he have the strength of character to actually act on it or not (all evidence points to not). And/or, is he saying this now because he feels it but tomorrow will go back to FEELING something else again? Just like we shouldn't be taken in by their negative spewing, nor should we be taken in when they swing the other way.
I'll re-read Sandi's rules. I feel I am continuing to work on my detachment and not letting him or his A hurt me. My emotions aren't getting pulled in this time, or at least not to the extent they have in the past. If I choose to stay, it will not be in reconciliation. it will be in continued DBing, not for him, but for me, while I see what he does. While there is a part of me that is happy to hear these words from him, finally, I know they aren't enough. They mean nothing without the actions to back them up. He's saying he wants the chance to show me the actions. I need to decide if it is worth the strong possibility of yet another fail.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
He took me down to the basement where he got out a box hidden back somewhere crazy. he said, I know you asked me if I had any mementos of her. I lied. Here they are. And he opened the box and proceeded to name each memento and throw it into the garbage. He said, you can look at any of this if you want, or you don't need to. Playbills from shows they went to (including Hamilton, Wayfarer), tickets to Harry Potter at Universal (where we took our kids the next year together), love notes from her. Two candles she had given him. A vase she had given him.
Oh, yeah. Also, they had seen each other in a bunch of other cities he hadn't told me about. He went to a wedding with her as her date. They went to breweries we had talked about visiting together. He went through each one. He checked with me several times-- do you want to hear this? I said yes and he kept going. She came to our hometown, which he'd specifically told me she hadn't done. I was here. He took her on a couple of hikes, other places we had gone together. Slept with her at her hotel room one night and came home to me.
He said, I was never going to tell you about this box. I was going to hang onto it in the hopes that one day we would get back together. She had given him 39 love notes for his 39th birthday, all things she loved about him. He handed them to me and I put them in the garbage.
I think my detachment was complete. I didn't say anything. I didn't actually feel anything, except a vague positive feeling about knowing the truth. he said, she is a good person. It really bothers me when you say she's a whore. I had glanced at enough of the notes to actually feel empathy towards her in the moment, towards both of them. I said, she isn't a bad person. He started crying.
Oh, and.... there never was any email. He felt caught in the moment when I asked if they'd been in contact and made up the email on the spot. he hadn't talked to her during our trip at all, but the morning of the day her told me he wanted a D he talked to her, and they've been in contact this week (until Friday, when he told me he was choosing me). She's still there for him. He showed her the apartment he wants. He said she's saying she isn't sure what she wants, but he knows she's still there if he called her and said he was taking the apartment and is choosing her.
I still said nothing, really. Felt nothing, really. He took the garbage out and put it in the trash outside, replaced the bag. He said, I will call and decline the apartment. To me, this is the perfect apartment. If I'm going to leave, this represents to me the ideal situation. It is absolutely perfect. it has space for the kids, close but not walkable, beautiful, not depressing like a number of other ones I've looked at. I still have what is my very final chance with her. But I'm not choosing that. Sometime this week I will call her and tell her I'm choosing you and my girls and declining the apartment, and that I don't want to be in contact with her anymore. I said ok. He talked a lot about this time being different because it is coming from him, he is making the choice, he wants to reclaim all the memories of the places they went for us. I asked if he was still OK signing the pre-nup, he said yes.
I guess I could have taken that moment to say enough is enough. I didn't-- I didn't really feel angry or anything. For whatever reason this most recent (I was going to say "final" though who knows... though at this point I don't possibly know what more he could share that is worse than what he has). is this detachment? I'm really like, whatever, at this point. Just want to get that prenup signed and decide from there.
I know I know I know. But, detachment feels pretty good.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
xoxo