Crossroads

[Valeska19]

For me, there are a few different things. One, trust is a squirmy and tricky thing that I don't have a whole lot of, right now. I know myself and I know I'll just doubt that he's really not in contact with her, probably regardless of whether or not he's in the house, no matter what he says. I'm going to bet that I'll doubt more if I don't see him. He is a giant cake-eater. I just want to call his bluff and say-- in or out, buddy. He's saying in, but I'll believe that when I see it. The only way I can believe it is to see it/him and his actions, and the opportunities to see that and rebuild trust seem a lot less if we are S than if we live under the same roof.

I understand that's your perception and your truth. I disagree with it as I have seen and personally experienced the benefits of space and letting go through a S. But it is your decision. And that's okay.

All that being said, I'm open to the idea, especially if I felt like it was really just about the two of us and our relationship. I just feel like doing things to work on our R while he still has her in his head is useless. We've talked about him sleeping in the basement for awhile (suggestion of my IC, who said we could tell the kids Dad has some allergies and is snoring a lot so sleeping in the basement to help Mommy get more sleep because sleep is so important, or something like that, so avoiding my fears about the kids).

Please do not lie to your children. You're not teaching them the value of honesty. That will do way more damage in the long run than telling them the truth now and helping them through whatever feelings they have.

Instead that you can say it's a decision that's both you and H agreed upon. If your kids express some kind of fear. Listen and Validate, but you do not need to give them more info into why you made the decision.

[Ginger1]

May, what's your end goal? I imagine it is to have a healthy LONG lasting marriage, right?

What's the goal for your kids? I think it's for your kids to have healthy, happy parents and a stable life, right?

So let's break this down. The path you are on now and have been on have NOT been leading to a healthy long last marriage.The path is not leading ot kids with happy healthy parents and a stable life.

What is happening now is a father and a husband who carried on a two year intense affair under your roof, in front of your eyes and he dam well knew the risks that would have to his stable home and his kids. Right now he is a man you can't trust, who hasn;t changed, who is all words and zero actions. Who knows he can go on whatever whim he wants and he won't have any consequences and you'll follow right along with it. He manipulates you into the vacation he wants. Then he tells you he wants ot be with OW and would bet the farm on the fact he did such a quick turnaround, is because he was rejected by OW. I honestly have no doubts about this. No one does that quick of a turnaround.

Then I have read about the nutty stuff he says to you, how he wants you to be his emotional crutch for his breakup with OW and how he gets to do all of that. ANd i have read your self proclaimed angry outbursts you have.

Someone wise told me something so true: we teach people how we treat us. I am afraid you are teaching him that it is OK to treat you this way.

You want ot keep him under your roof so he doesn;t have temptation to contact OW? I mean, he can do that as well under your roof. He carried on a vry involved deep affair right under your roof. You can't keep him from anything and you can't control what he will do.

The road to a happy healthy marriage is him wanting to do this. Wanting ot do what it takes to keep his family together. Wanting to get rid of OW because he wants to and he wants to have a happy healthy long lasting marriage. Keeping him under the roof while he does this work and you watching this will not need lead and will not give you the best outcome for your kids.

A therapeutic separation would be your best chance quite honestly. Because I would say there are .01% of M's that came back from such a severe infidelity successfully in the same home.

and you aren;t making the decision for him to leave. You are making the decision. You have a voice here.

Your heart is in the right place for your kids, no doubt. But I am afraid the path this is on is the worst one for having this work in the run. You could probably keep everyone under one roof for now. But it is almost inevitable who this is going ot play out if he doesn't do the work on his own and truly want it.

The truth is you say you need him under your roof to work on the marriage, to see his changes, etc. But working in the marriage isn't what actually needs to be done right now. He needs ot work on himself, by himself, before he can even come close to putting true work int he marriage. ANd I would bet you, under your continuous scrutiny needing to see his changes, most of them won't be real, or he will buckle under the pressure. He isn't ready to work on the marriage. He is just terrified of being alone. He needs to work on himself hardcore before he could come close to truly recommitting tothe marriage.

[may22]

The only thing I'll add is that a "trial separation" isn't "trial" at all. Its a separation - IHS, trial, actual S - they are all the same thing. The word "trial" is added by Cs and Ls to ease the transition for both LBS and WAS.

What each of you do during the S is not the business of the other person.

You control you, H controls H.

Sorry - I know it's pretty direct, but that cuts through all the fog and mud.

IW, you said it. S is S. Helps to have it this directly. I also see how it can be helpful, Valeska-- it actually feels attractive in a lot of ways right now. But it feels very final, to me. Like why bother. We can just be done, then.

Scout... what you wrote is exactly right and exactly what I will say if we do this. Honestly, reading it like that really helps me. Thank you. (Although, I've also read that if you know you want to D, you should just say that and not string the kids along... so if I go back to my S is S and might as well be D feeling, am I just stringing this out and making it harder on the kids out of my own discomfort and therefore selfishness? Pretending that we are Sing to work on our R from afar when we're really just too chicken to make the call now?)

Valeska, you're absolutely right about not lying to the kids. (H says even if we get through this he wants to sit our Ds down each when they turn 18 and tell them what happened and why. I'm not totally convinced of this but will cross that bridge if and when we ever get there.) Thanks for the reminder. I'm embarrassed I even considered it.

[may22]

Ginger, I hear you. I will push back in a couple of places.

One, he has never, ever told me the words that he is saying now, that he wants this, he wants the M. You guys keep saying he is a man of all words and no actions. Actually, he has been a man of ambivalent words and no action. This is actually, honestly, different. He says it is because he went up to the very precipice of divorce, looked over the edge, and decided it was not what he wanted. He does not have the EQ to be the master level manipulator you guys all think he is. He is sad, weak, and confused. You can buy it or not.

Two, I'm not worried that he was rejected by OW. I don't think so. When he lies there are no details. I am pretty good at sniffing this out at this point. He is a great liar by omission. (Also, what happened to wanting what you can't have? Last time she told him she was moving on was when he lost his $hit and reignited the A.) No, she's not back to the "I'll wait for you as long as it takes" where she was in July. I'm sure it is more of an ultimatum like "I'm not waiting around for you to leave your W any more." But you can believe that or not believe that. I'm comfortable here.

Three, I don't want to keep him under this roof so he doesn't have the temptation to contact OW. That is a small side-piece of why I'm not particularly interested in a trial/therapeutic separation. It is not to try to prevent him from contacting her. It is because I have anxiety about it, not whether he does it or not. His behavior is not within my control. I will just have less anxiety about it if he's here, and IF we decide to work on the M, then I want to give it the best shot possible, not tank it with anxiety or any more trust issues than there need to be.

I was just thinking... you know how DB says to not put pressure on the WAWs because it makes them want to bolt in the other direction? I am thinking about this here. I feel like there is so much pressure to make him go from so many of you that I'm starting to feel the need to defend him. I've honestly been in a place where I was ready to say GO, please, just GO. And I'm feeling so much pressure here that it is making me pull into the opposite direction.

Maybe.. .can I ask everyone here a favor? Cool it on the advice for a minute? I am in no hurry to make this decision. I'm not doing a single thing until I get the post nup drafted and signed and I don't want to have him sign until he's done what he said he was going to do with the conversation with AP and formally turned down the apartment, neither of which, to my knowledge, have happened yet. I have not asked. He will do it and tell me about it or he won't. If we decide to S there will be another nice apartment, I'm not worried about missing that opportunity either.

Right now, what I WANT to do, is focus on what is best for me. I have an IC appointment tomorrow and will be talking about boundaries, whether or not I have confidence and self-worth issues, fears for me, fears for my kids, how to protect myself and support myself through all this no matter what choice I make.

I will not and cannot ask him to leave without being utterly confident it is the right decision. That is not a decision I can make today, and I have no plans to make it today. I don't want to take a break from this board because it has been an absolute lifeline for me for the past year. Because I feel like so many of you are friends even though we don't know each other. Because you push me in ways I know my own friends and family wouldn't be able to do. I welcome the diversity of opinion and I like being challenged. But right now I think it isn't in my best interest to have quite as much pressure here as I feel right now.

Thanks, guys. I appreciate you all, truly. I am just feeling a bit overwhelmed right now.

[Ginger1]

I will absolutely respect your boundaries.

I wish you all the best

[cardinal]

((may)) I just listened to a video someone shared--Elizabeth Gilbert saying, in some small part, that sometimes we live our lives one day at a time, and sometimes we live our lives one breath at a time. You can live one breath at a time, too--you don't have to have everything all decided right now, and I'm glad you realize that. Take a breather. Yes, focus on you. I hope your IC appointment is helpful!

[wooba]

may, hang in there. I'm rooting for you whatever your decisions are. (((hug)))

[SamCal]

May - hang in there. I admire you for speaking so candidly about your H and your talks/feelings - I am sure it can be really hard to open up here and feel vulnerable and then have to defend him. You seem self aware enough to make your own decisions, and take what comes with them.

I've brought this up in others' threads before, but in the enabling vein - an impactful al anon saying that I think about a lot is giving someone the dignity to fail on their own. I think that applies and sounds like what doing nothing right now is here for you - you're giving him the dignity to fail, and that is a good thing. By not engaging and taking some time, it leaves your own emotional bandwidth available for you instead of being used up solving his problems (directly or indirectly). Kicking him out is only solving his problem of indecision for him when you aren't sure if it'd be solving a problem for you. Only do what solves your problems, and those of your children. I def agree that the post-nup sounds like it falls into that category. It doesn't mean he will fail - that's on him to find out, and he can't do that unless others let him.

I think the same applies here to you/those who give you advice - you are allowed the dignity to fail (or not fail) on your own, too. Hugs to you.

[Sage4]

(((May)))

I want to expand on what SamCal so eloquently stated:

I think that applies and sounds like what doing nothing right now is here for you - you're giving him the dignity to fail, and that is a good thing. By not engaging and taking some time, it leaves your own emotional bandwidth available for you instead of being used up solving his problems (directly or indirectly). Kicking him out is only solving his problem of indecision for him when you aren't sure if it'd be solving a problem for you.

I attempted to go down this path with the new shoes comment, but she put it so much more succinctly. Drawing that roadmap on a clean sheet of paper doesn't necessarily demand a physical S. Maybe you just need to separate your emotions from H's to allow him to hit rock bottom and rise from the ashes on his own. I think if anyone (besides WF) can do this, it is you.

I don't remember who said it, but I agree with not lying to the kids about H's sleeping arrangements. It is much more authentic to say 'Daddy and I are having a lot of big feelings right now and need to sleep in different beds so we have more time to think.' 'Does that mean you are going to get a D?' 'You two will be the first to know if there are going to be big changes in our family. But right now, you don't need to worry about that. Right now, you just need to know that both Daddy and I love you to the moon and back times a million (or whatever your love phrase is).' And then do something loving, but relationally neutral, like watch a show as a family on the couch.

Have you heard the saying that there is a million different ways to raise great kids? I would venture to say that there are a billion different ways to make a great marriage. We see but a fraction of that figure here on this board. So you keep doing you, stay true to May and cherry pick the messages that are meant for you and your situation.

xxx

[may22]

Ginger-- thank you, I really appreciate that and it isn't you. It was just getting overwhelming. I know that every single person that takes the time to post here on other people's threads is doing so out of caring and compassion and what they've learned from their own experiences. I feel like my H when he freaks out and tells me to stop solutioning and listen. I guess in this moment I'm looking for a little more validation and a little less concrete advice.

Valeska-- I looked up Vicky Tidwell Palmer, thank you. Really interesting.

Cardinal-- somehow permission to just focus on the next moment, the next breath, makes relief sweep through me. Thank you.

Wooba-- hugs back to you. xoxo

SamCal-- what you wrote is really helpful and is resonating. You're right in that kicking him out solves a problem for him by taking the decision out of his hands, but doesn't necessarily solve my problems. And his problems are his problems. I feel so strongly about this-- maybe it is a teeny bit of pettiness, but if he really wants/wanted to leave, he needs to stand up and do it himself, not get me to do his dirty work for him. I just feel a wave of resentment at that idea. He's got to make his own decisions and figure out his own stuff. I have enough on my plate right now. i really like how you put it--saving my own emotional bandwidth for myself, and giving him the dignity to fail.

Also... thank you for saying it out loud-- I *am* ready to take the consequences of this decision (once I get that postnup signed-- having that in place takes away a lot of the potential negative consequences of not splitting now when he's feeling guilty). I feel I'm pretty clear-eyed on that one.

The thing is... I *was* terrified of being on my own, for months and months. The thought of starting over, of being single, of losing my health insurance, of failing ... that was enormous for me. Thanks in great part to this board, over the past year I have slowly gone through each one of my fears and faced them... all but the children one. The fear of hurting my kids along with the selfish loss of time with them is still not dealt with. But if it wasn't for them... honestly, to me the easy path is to tell him to go. It feels so attractive. I am well aware staying is the rockier and longer path, with no guarantee of success.

Sage, I get it now...time to rethink the paradigm and put me and the kids in the middle of the paper instead of H. I'm not sure what that means yet, but I love the idea of a fresh piece of paper, taking my time to decide where things go, what direction we want to go in, and how to let H do his thing without pushing his emotional processing onto me. If I do decide to stay, I think this time I will have to have much clearer boundaries around this than I have in the past.

xoxo thanks you guys. Thinking of all of you.