May, I am sorry our direct advice and comments have become hurtful or frustrating for you. I hear you. I can certainly be more mindful of what I say. I’m not sure if this helps, but often when another person’s thread triggers us, our own advice can become just as much aimed at ourself (subconsciously) as it is towards that poster. I know for me, your husbands behavior and continued lack of regard for your boundaries (ie the memory box and having you process that with him despite you telling him for a year you do not want to discuss OW) absolutely enrages me. I imagine other posters feel similar — they have come to adore you and then see this man mistreat you and they just want to rescue you.
We are all different tho in our personal psychologies and desires. I think it was Wayfarer (?) who even posted that because both of you had an in home separation, that your situations were more unique and similar, and she suggests that others do not understand as well. I see this a lot here, myself included, where a poster tries to make a connection by finding similarities. I do also happen to think our one million subtle differences that are not reflected in our writings are equally as important and so we do need to be cautious of that. You are far, far more tolerant of your Hs selfishness than I ever was. I would have kicked him to the curb long ago before ever considering him back. Honestly, with everything he has done and said, I don’t think I ever would be with a man like that. You have also told me before that him moving out felt like a place of no return, whereas for me, it was the only way I could have my dignity and space to see what life was like Dd. So we are different. But there are also subtle differences in just who we are as people and details we don’t think to share here.
Hard truths that feels like judgmental advice hurts. I admire all of you for sharing your stories. I didn’t share until years after my H came back. But I did have people that told me things I did not what to hear. I even lost a couple friends in it all. The therapist I was seeing definitely would rub me wrong! She would tell me to get over things, this wasn’t about OW (who was a friend) and it wasn’t about her daughter and my Ds friendship. Her insensitivity at times infuriated me. Now looking back on that years later, I can actually see her points. Because I’m not in the thick of it or trigggred by it. She was forcing me to think about things differently and not just wallow in my own self pity. I think I needed to hear that
So someone just posted for you to cherry pick the advice you want to hear but I am suggesting otherwise. I want you to understand how different, not just similar, we all are. People are saying things for a reason. Partly their own triggers from their sitch, but more so a lot of us see a terrible injustice here. May, you what to really understand your H and make sense of this, and that just shows what a beautiful person you are. But we also see you allowing so much neglect of your boundaries, emotional abuse and the continued selfishness. I’m not sure you can even see how toxic this all is because you are stuck in the middle of it. Like a child in a war torn country just trying to survive. And others around you want to help but genuinely dont know how.
I will respect your boundary and not give you advice. I will say, I hope you have a very good IC that can help you work through your emotional trauma. There must be a million subtleties we are not reading. If we teach people how to treat us than why have you taught him to step all over you for years? And I also don’t believe this is about the kids. I have 3 daughters and it would make me sick to think of a man treating them this way. So maybe when you are ready, can you really think about why so many people here ARE telling you to kick him to the curb. You know we care about you. And you know we are saying it for some reasons. I think this will become more clear to you years down the road either way, but for now, it might be worth just thinking about.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
I hope you can find some inner peace and calmness while working through things.
We all project our own individual situations onto others here. For instance, if you are anything like me, you are frustrated by advice on what to do because you just want some time and space to process things, not necessarily because you agree or disagree with it. And I have difficulty with others telling me what to do. The harder they push, the more I recoil.
Unchien, I think you're right on in that I do need some space to process and I am feeling pressure to make a move on here, like yesterday, and WTF is wrong with me for not already doing it. I must be afraid, I must have no self-worth or self-respect, I'm using my children as an excuse, I'm willfully blind to my H's continuing transgressions. I *feel* the frustration with me coming across from some posters, and I get it. I really do.
But it isn't helping me right now. It is pushing me backwards, I think. And right now I need to feel the freedom to focus on me and what I want, not what other people think is best for me, or what other people would do in my situation, or EVEN what I might advise someone else in my same situation.
Blu, I think you are right on in that all our situations are different in a thousand ways. You're someone who has really helped me see that-- that we have different boundaries and values and bright lines. For me, where I stand today (recognizing this could change), I could never, ever see my way to allowing my H back into my life and my home if he left to go live with another woman. But when I look at you and your situation, I don't think-- wow, she must have no self- respect to be with a man who walked out on her and their family. I think, from what I know of you, you are incredibly thoughtful and empathetic and smart and giving. You are quite literally risking your life to care for others and have been for months. You spend time to come to these forums to help other people and do it in a more thoughtful and empathetic way than any of the other vets. You're not just pushing your own experience. You're trying to put yourself in the poster's shoes and figure out the best way to help them see more of what is happening, even when that is really hard for them. (me.) I am beyond grateful for all you have done and continue to do to support me.
To me, I see your R with your H and I think-- I admire you, so much, for being the bigger person, for forgiving your H and rebuilding your family and MR even after he did such an awful and horrible thing to you and your children. To me, what your H did is a million times worse than what my H did. It is unforgivable. That is how I feel and I know I could change that with time, but that is where I am and where I've been for more than a year, now. I hope I don't come across as judgmental or anything. And I know it was really important for you to see your H as almost a new person, someone who was 100% remorseful and ready to do the hard work to change before you allowed him back into your life. If it were me in that same situation, I can't actually see taking my H back even under those circumstances, but if I did, he would have to crawl on his hands and knees and prove to me over a long, long period of time that it would be worth it to even consider the remotest possibility of forgiving him. So, I think I do understand how it feels to say NO, this is enough. For me, that line is leaving, and he hasn't crossed that yet. I know that for you and for many others here, you don't see much of a difference between the A and leaving. I do. Maybe it is only because it hasn't happened yet. But to ME, it is categorically different.
The sharing of the memory box-- I actually don't see that as crossing my true boundary, which is hearing about how he feels about her. He was very careful not to do that. He did, finally, what I have been asking for over a year. I know I've said here, I've said to H, I've said to the MC, I've said to my IC... I WANT TO KNOW. I am a person who wants to know the truth even if it is painful. He went through every fact and figure and place that I wanted to know about. I obviously got a taste of how he felt about her from the love notes but he didn't say it to me. He spoke in the past tense. He did it while quite literally throwing it all away into the garbage. He was totally transparent. His eyes, his demeanor, his body language were miles away from how it has been in the past when we've had these conversations. He was open and engaged and willing, not hunched and brows low and sulky. He checked over and over to ask how I was doing, was I ok, did I want him to continue. He said I am telling you this because I want to stay together. Because I never thought you needed to know these things if we split. And I'm telling you now also knowing that this could be the straw that breaks the camel's back, knowing that it might be too much, too many lies, for you to ever believe me again. But I am telling you as a sign of my intention to be here, with you, in this M.
So, for me, I don't see it as him trampling on my boundaries. It was exactly what I have asked for for more than a year. And... I feel so much more at peace about all of it. It is weird, honestly, and I'm going to talk with my IC today about why this disclosure left me feeling much more peaceful and with a lot less anger. It may have been the context-- throwing it all away as we spoke-- but I feel far better about all of it than I did before we went through that little exercise.
The choice to ask him to leave is a big, big decision for me. And not one I can make easily. To me, the most important part of all of this is coming through with my sense of self intact. That no matter how my H behaved, I acted with integrity, honesty, and put my children's best interests first, always. (yes, I recognize that putting the children first may entail putting me first so that I can be the best mom I can be to them. I am measuring that every day.)
xx thank you all, honestly, for being there for me, even (especially) when I push back. xx
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
May, your explanation reads very different now. I didn’t realize you wanted this type of interaction with him and it brought you relief. Perhaps I read more discomfort or reluctance the first time around when you described it.
I take no offense at all to what you say. I imagine there are many women that would not take my H back after he did what he did. Sometimes I’m surprised I did too. Lol. And I’m so far passed that time that it is no longer a trigger for me to talk about it. I do want to clarify a couple things tho. He did not just pick up and leave and he did not live with her. He also was not having a PA at any point ever when he lived in this house or our bed. They had a 6-8 month EA and then I found out and exploded. He floundered around like a lost puppy for a few weeks and I kicked him to the curb. I told him if you are not ready to commit to working on our M, then get out, I won’t have you living here unsure or thinking about someone else. So after 4 weeks of drama and him not working things out, I drew the line.
To my surprise, he did leave and he actually lived with his parents for about 10 months. That when their PA started and they had a full on relationship. I’m sure he was at her place often as she gladly left her H and got and apartment. He did not allow our kids to see them together (they knew her well and were friends with her kids) but she certainly tried. I told him don’t you ever or you will regret it every day and I will make sure if that. He knew I would never take him back if he did, and I would not have. And outside of our home, and in the “real world” their R failed quickly. We tried to keep things smooth for the kids, I did not lie to them, and we each saw them or spoke to them every 1-2 days. It was very hard nonetheless!
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
May, from reading your last post to Blu about the memory box episode, which you clearly see as significant and positive, coupled with all the conflict that has gone on in the last week, you have a huge amount to process. You have every right to take your time. You have your own timeline too, to process, to make decisions...or to do nothing for awhile and try and tune out all the chatter inside (and outside) your head.
Yesterday I was likening what is going on in my own head to an old computer terminal, with lines and lines of script being processed at 100 miles an hour, line after line of green code running up the screen, too much to take in, too fast to read. I imagined a screensaver in my head, something calm and hypnotic, lol!
Do something for you today May. Get outside of your own head. What can you do that is genuinely for you (as opposed to just a distraction)?
Thinking of you heaps xx
M:49 H:49 T:20 M:18 D:16 D:14
EA: Feb 2019-May 2020 Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020 H asked to reconcile: Jun 2020 EA relapse: Oct/Nov 2020 Recon #2: since Nov 2020
may, only you know what kind of reality you're in. We're all just trying to put together a picture from your words here and I'm sure things get lost in translation. I hope your emotions have calmed down a little bit after the incident. This forum is great for seeking different perspectives, and I'm sorry that you were feeling judged and pressured. I think sometimes we forget that those who come here for help are already in a vulnerable state. Sometimes we need to give a little honey along with the medicine.
Unchien, I think you're right on in that I do need some space to process and I am feeling pressure to make a move on here, like yesterday, and WTF is wrong with me for not already doing it. I must be afraid, I must have no self-worth or self-respect, I'm using my children as an excuse, I'm willfully blind to my H's continuing transgressions. I *feel* the frustration with me coming across from some posters, and I get it. I really do.
But it isn't helping me right now. It is pushing me backwards, I think. And right now I need to feel the freedom to focus on me and what I want, not what other people think is best for me, or what other people would do in my situation, or EVEN what I might advise someone else in my same situation.
My IC would point out the cognitive distortions:
"WTF is wrong with me" "I must have no self-worth or self-respect" "I'm using my children as an excuse" "I'm willfully blind"
(Not sure if these were your thoughts, or the thoughts you are hearing from posters)
I have my opinions about your sitch. I think your H (like literally every WAS) has pointed you into a corner where somehow you are the one having to make the truly difficult decisions. I think true lasting change is possible, but incredibly difficult and rare. But that doesn't mean it is impossible.
I also received a lot of advice on what to do in my situation. Most of it, in retrospect, was completely correct. EXCEPT... I wasn't ready. I look back today and think that perhaps I would have been better off had I been more decisive sooner... but again, I wasn't ready. And the process of finding that inner strength, for me, is the true gift of DB, and why I keep coming back to the forums even though my MR, by the time I even found this board, was completely gone.
And that's me giving advice when you've asked for no advice =) Focus on you and finding your emotional center.
I read your latest updates. Wow, such a difficult situation to be in! I hope the upcoming weekend offers you some respite and calm. I'll refrain from advice per your request. You are strong. You've got this!
U, those things are not what I think about myself. It is what I am hearing from posters here. I do sometimes wonder if I'm being stupid or willfully blind, but I spend a lot of time introspecting on all of this and I'm generally comfortable with my choices (and, the consequences of them). I did talk about this with my IC yesterday, particularly about the number of posters who believe I don't value myself or have any self-respect. She dismissed the self-worth comments. She said she thinks boards like this can be incredibly valuable for so many reasons but that there can also be a certain amount of group-think and projections taking place. To take advice with a grain of salt and set my boundaries here just as I do IRL.
I'm definitely open to advice about things to think about or consider... I just wanted a time out on the "WTF is wrong with you for not making him leave yesterday, you must not value yourself" type comments. I think I've been pretty clear that this decision isn't happening until a few big things take place (post-nup signed, convo with AP takes place, H gives me transparency on that convo). Then I can take all the information I have. If that convo doesn't take place, or the transparency with me isn't 100% there, or I don't have some minimal level of confidence that we are at least starting from a different place than we have before, it is an easy decision. Isn't much of a decision at all, really. It is only if I do feel those things happened and there is a real chance between us that I have a choice to make at all. And we aren't there yet.
Blu, Wooba, I think I almost purposefully make H look worse than he is sometimes because I want you to believe that I'm not fooling myself, I can see the worst aspects of him and don't need it pointed out to me, that I'm not being blind to his faults. I'm trying to look at all of this from as unemotional a place as possible (recognizing that isn't ever going to be totally possible) and so it is important to me to really not be spackling over his faults. And they are MAJOR, perhaps unforgivable (but perhaps not). Maybe I emphasize them too much then. I re-read the post about the big disclosure/memento disposal ceremony and in the moment I really felt very little. I was calm. I felt empathy for AP. It was only after that I really started to realize how much anger had left, how much more at peace I felt. My IC said she thought we both got a lot of closure from it, me in finally getting the truth from H, H in my acknowledgment of the A to him in that moment. And it was strange to me that what I felt I was communicating as calm detachment read to people here as numbness. I didn't feel numb. I felt peace.
He told me last night it was done, he wasn't really happy about how it went but he thinks it is done. It was by text, not by phone. I said, OK, when you're ready to tell me about it, I'm ready to hear it. But I can't commit to any next steps with you until we have transparency on this. (And, the way he described the interaction, that he "thinks" it is done, isn't exactly confidence inspiring. But I refrained from commenting.)
He said he's sad and his IC says he needs to let himself be sad, sometimes. He said it is like a friend died. I said, you told me before, in the spring, that it was like a spouse dying, and people don't say you'll just get over your spouse. You learn to live with it. He said, I said that??? (no, I made it up.) He said, I don't remember that. (these people remember NOTHING.) But that isn't how I feel right now. So maybe you can count that as progress. Maybe.
I get it that he feels sad, and if there is any possibility of us working out, I both need to recognize this is the case and give him the space he needs to process those feelings, but also I need to protect myself. I feel that telling me he is sad is pushing on my boundaries. He isn't saying the words love or whatever, but obviously it is implied. But it is also the truth. I'm wrestling with this a bit right now. Do I want to deal with this going forward? Do I want to cut my losses and move on? I'm seeing the path ahead if he doesn't MO as really rocky for a really really really long time, if it even works.
He also told me he realized that his fantasy D situation was truly a fantasy. He had always thought it was because I wasn't allowing it, but he has come to realize that it wasn't what AP was offering, either. It was never going to happen on anyone's end. It only ever existed in his imagination. Maybe he is mourning that fantasy in a way, as well.
Pommy, I think what you're saying is absolutely right. (And I also know that sensation of the green computer lines of code just pushing pushing pushing-- that really resonates with me too.) I need time and space to let this all settle in and process everything that has happened as well as what hasn't happened before I make any moves. I need to take care of myself and sit with all this for a bit. Continue to enforce my boundaries with him. I suggested this morning that we take some space from each other for a while, like after the kids go to bed to not feel any need to hang out together, to do our own things and have that be the expectation. He said OK. He said he'd prefer to still sleep together in the bed but is open to sleeping elsewhere if that helps me. I haven't totally decided that yet.
IC made me commit to yoga, even just simple yin yoga. I think I will take you up on your suggestion to do one thing genuinely just for me... as long as you agree to do the same! We can be accountability partners in a self-care project. Sound good??
Thanks everyone xx
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I do promise you, anything I have ever posted to you is definitely not a projection of myself, but simply from what I’ve seen work and not work and the outcomes from 12 years on these boards. But I will admit, sometimes we can see what we can coming from miles away and already kind of know the outcome and really want to change the path you you. Maybe that’s kind of a projection. Again, I’m not going to come tell you what to do. Heck, I’m not even going to talk about what he is doing or not doing and what to believe or not believe. You will do what you will do. I’m not going to try to change that. Quite frankly, I’m done having that discussion with anyone on these boards.
I am going to challenge you to set you kids aside for minute. Set affair partner aside for a minute. Set aside who h is and h is not for a minute. I feel like it’s always about the kids and H’s emotions and his attachment to his A partner, and him having resentment. And him, him him him and everything is according to where he is at.
What do you want out of your life and out of a relationship/M? What is acceptable and enjoyable to YOU? What do you evvision for yourself. Minus 2 parents under one roof, and no affair.
What looks healthy and acceptable and maybe even enjoyable to YOu?
Don’t even have to answer that here. Just something to think about .
