Blu, maybe the ten year deadline could work for me. Right now it feels a lot like giving up, that all this wouldn't have been worth it to go through. And the funny thing is that if I'd never known about the A and was still in my SSM mindset, that probably would have been all just fine with me. It is only because I know about the A and through this experience have rediscovered my own sexuality and interest in physical affection that I am no longer satisfied with the day-to-day relationship we have, when it is friendly and good as it is most of the time. I'm also mulling over more of what H's role in the SSM was, rather than just take all the responsibility on myself. There are elements that led to the SSM that I don't want to replicate in this new relationship with my H, regardless of what it all entails (together, S, in love, not).
But basically, I am thinking back to the blank sheet of paper I have now (thanks Sage and SamCal!) to map out my future. It is no longer just two destinations-- D or an idealized M2.0. I'm starting to see multiple other possible paths for me to travel. What I'm trying to do, though, is resist filling in the lines too quickly. Just seeing where I am today, what I am content with, what I need to change, making those small adjustments without (as Yail says) writing my own future too soon.
Also, I want some time to sit and process these brand-new feelings I have. The one about being okay with the possibility of being the one to choose to S. The desire to let go of the anger and worry about the A and thinking about the AP-- forgiveness for myself, not for him or her. Just the desire to be free of these feelings and it being OK to let go of the anger at some point, I don't need it anymore to fuel me and propel me into any next phase, because where I go is up to me.
And, finishing the post-nup, working on my contingencies for what happens if he talks to her again, asking my close friend and IC to make sure this last line is drawn on stone, not in the sand. I'll pick up the phone and call my mom and other best friend and tell them everything, which should give me the momentum to follow through on kicking him out.
KG, I like what you wrote on your own thread too about taking responsibility for your own healing, and this is exactly what I'm trying to do too. You sound strong and positive. I am working on that!
For me, the kids have always been the reason I'm standing-- the "you've gotta prove it to me" stance feels meaningless in the face of our shared responsibility to our children. And, I won't use them as pawns. I walk when I'm ready to be done, for myself and for my kids, not because it is a better DBing strategy in the long term. Sorry if I'm a DB fail for this reason, but I need to do what is right for me in the end, whether or not others here agree with my choices. And I think that is the same for you. Don't feel like you were a doormat because you chose to stand in the way that you did. You did what was right for you, and it is no longer feeling right. You need to come authentically to where you are in order to be the best KG you can be and face the future with no regrets. You know your own self-worth. I think you always have. You just let your W's choices cloud your perspective for a bit. Let that wash away and do what you need to do for yourself, now.
For me, returning to the idea of the children as the core reason for me still standing, also helps me to look at the possibility of the 10 years as something I could do, or maybe will need to do, if I decide it is in their best interest. But yes, I also fully agree with you that at some point, I need to decide if what my children are witnessing in our R is what I want them to see in an M, and if he's really walking all over me in any area besides me not kicking him out for the A. I do deserve a partner who has my back, and that isn't H right now. Question is-- am I strong enough to have children's back while still in the M, knowing I'm standing on my own without someone watching my six? For now, I'm okay with this. Maybe not forever. But for now.
Scout just wrote in her most recent thread about being grateful for the small things. Having a nice cheese in the fridge. Ice for cold drinks. A perfectly ripe avocado. I just felt a rush of desire to be there when I read this. That is what I want too, and I know it is mine for the taking. So on the menu for me today... A little yoga. A beautiful cup of espresso with just a drop of heavy cream. A gorgeous fresh piece of ahi dropped off from the CSA yesterday will become lunch and maybe one of my avocados is perfectly ripe, too-- that really sounds wonderful, to me.
xoxo M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
It's funny that you spoke of the kids May. I seriously almost typed out that my situation and current outlook would be totally different if we had children. I think it's actually one of the things that has been pushing me to be ok with moving forward with ending things - the fact that we don't have kids. I mean, at the end of the day, the only major asset or connection that would require disentangling would be the house. In my sitch, I could end it and be on my own. Strong, independent, in a good financial situation, and healing. Instead of the the current (and painful) stuck-in-the-mud relationship in which my WS is "ILYB" and still behaving selfishly after 2 years of patience.
KG
LBW 32 - me WW 31 T 7 M 4 No Kids 4 dogs
Separated 1y Navigating the mine field and GAL with or without
P.S. I forgot to say... I woke up this morning to H hugging me and apologizing for his snarky remark last night. I apologized too for flying off the handle. I'm glad it happened but the most important part to me is that I didn't really need the apology from him to feel OK about what happened or where I am right now. And that part feels the best.
I don't want to accept sarcasm as a means of communication from him, and I don't want to let my own anger and emotions dominate, so I'm glad we had the wrap-up apology on both ends. But I think before, I would have felt an emotional response, like a rush of relief with his apology-- and while I felt a little of that, and gratitude we were able to repair, I am not feeling like it matters all that much to my emotional or mental state.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
P.S. I forgot to say... I woke up this morning to H hugging me and apologizing for his snarky remark last night. I apologized too for flying off the handle. I'm glad it happened but the most important part to me is that I didn't really need the apology from him to feel OK about what happened or where I am right now. And that part feels the best.
I don't want to accept sarcasm as a means of communication from him, and I don't want to let my own anger and emotions dominate, so I'm glad we had the wrap-up apology on both ends. But I think before, I would have felt an emotional response, like a rush of relief with his apology-- and while I felt a little of that, and gratitude we were able to repair, I am not feeling like it matters all that much to my emotional or mental state.
Saying "I'm sorry" is a great start.... but as they say the "proof is in the pudding".
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
Valeska, agreed. And I truly don't know if he has the capacity to look inside himself and change... whether it is around the big things, like the A, or little things, like speaking to me in a disrespectful way cloaked by sarcasm. This is a weird thing as it was a feature of M1.0 but not too pronounced, got horrible during the alien-H phase, became waaay improved over the last year or so when I started DBing, and now has reared its ugly head again. I wish I understood where it came from. It may just be a way he externalizes his unhappiness, and it disappeared in the last year because of his guilt over the A and he tried to be nicer. (Or, he was perfectly happy cake eating for the last year and that is why the rudeness disappeared, and is now unhappy again because I took away his cake and taking it out on me.) IDK.
Journaling... I had a good session with my IC this week. She said she felt I've changed a lot since we have been working together. I asked in what way-- she said I seemed stronger; improved self-worth in/re my R with H-- not being willing to accept things from him just because he is my H or the father of my children; less fear; stronger boundaries; she feels like I'm getting to know myself better and encouraged me to continue along this path. So that all felt positive.
She gave me some tips on how to deal when triggers come up (self-talk, validating the feelings, moving into self-care mode) and my work this week is to avoid internalizing the anger and recognizing and breaking the co-dependent tendencies on my side of the fence. It's funny-- it seems as though H has been externalizing all his issues and mostly dumping them on me as the closest person, whereas my issue is swallowing it all.
We talked about how to address my anger towards H and AP. She asked if I believed that feelings needed to be experienced and have a beginning, middle, and end... I said I'd read that, and felt it made sense for some feelings, like sadness, but that my anger felt really different... that letting it go would make it go out of control, a raging fire that would consume everything in its path and be hungrier than before, not sated. (Alison, if you're reading... I remember your anger as a big, beautiful, protective bear, and my worry that my own anger would be a hellish, insatiable monster... I still feel that way. If I feed it, it only grows.)
Anyway... I am really dedicated right now to figuring out how to heal myself without relying on H for any support at all. This is my work and even though I wish I had the kind of H that I could rely on right now to help me through this situation of his making, I don't. And I don't want to make any more excuses for me or for him. I'm going to move forward healing on my own path and just not worry about where that might or might not lead in terms of my M.
We did nave another mini-argument, same dynamic-- he said something to me in a rude tone, I called him out, he denied it was rude-- and I got angry. But I this time I removed myself from the situation, had a cup of coffee, calmed down and then went back to talk with him. He said he felt like me blowing up after he does the littlest thing wrong is M1.0 all over again.
I said, I'm sorry I blew up at you. I won't do it again. (My plan is next time to simply remove myself from the situation, a la Alison.) And it feels like M1.0 to me all over again too, which scares me. Every time you choose to say something in a dismissive, rude, or sarcastic way to me instead of speaking to me in a kind and loving way-- it adds a layer of anger and resentment to my heart. That is a big part of what happened in M1.0 with me and a big reason for the SSM and why I lost my desire for you. It was covered in layers and layers of hardened plaque built by these tiny little barbs.
I simply don't want to live like that. You can make your choices about how you want to live your life and whether or not you're willing to make changes in order to have a good M with me. Just because you ended your affair does not mean you deserve a cookie. (I was reading CL last night )
He said, I don't think I deserve a cookie. But you aren't recognizing that I have made a major life change for you and our M.
I said, sorry. ending your affair was the right thing to do. But it is only the beginning of the work you have to do, and it isn't something I need to feel grateful about. You're simply coming back to the bare, bare minimum standard of any H, anywhere. So I'm not going to kiss you @ss over it. And if you are never truly sorry that you did it? Then we'll never have a real M.
In retrospect, this conversation probably wasn't a good idea. I was thinking as I wrote this out about Yail's recommendation to stretch out my timeline and in one sense, yesterday was just four weeks since he's gone NC with AP. Six weeks ago he wanted to D and five weeks ago he changed his mind back. I probably should have avoided the conversation and just focused on how to have better self-control in these situations and simply enforced a boundary around I won't be spoken to in a disrespectful way. But, I said my piece and all I can do now is continue to focus on me.
Hope everyone has fun plans for the weekend! xx
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Well I love what you said and I’m glad you said it. Plus, you meant it all, right? I’m glad you are being true to what you feel and think. He needs to see that you are strong, what your position is, and that you are not passively waiting for him to come around and decide to when to reengage with you (when it suits his mood). He is still self serving. You don’t have to accept that.
Truth darts. Hit him hard. I know some people will say continue to DB — detach, validate, GAL, etc — but I think that’s a rough blue print for folks that are spinning and don’t know where to start. I love that you are calling him out on his BS. You are teaching him how to treat you! You can also do that with grace and calm. Atta girl!!!
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
I know things really started to move in my marriage with my H's sarcasm and meanness and contempt when I started with the truth darts.
Previously, when he'd acted like that, I'd either been very upset and tearful, got angry, or tried to logic him out of his horrible state. All of that was about changing him.
When I got out of the way and left him to be mean to an empty room, that helped ME and it got me into a state where I could start to do things that helped the relationship. I had a LONG time where I was STFU and I think it did achieve some necessary peace and stability and allowed me the space to heal - but part of my healing was to get angry about how I'd been treated and what I had chosen to allow, and also to see the truth. And for me, healing action is about speaking the truth.
When he is mean or sarcastic with me these days, I say 'if you're angry about something, you can tell me directly and honestly like an adult and I will hear you out. I will not be in the room for your childish sarcasm and petty remarks. I will not allow you to act out like that around me,' or some version of that. I name what is happening, what I want, and what I am now going to do. Then I leave the room and leave him to deal with his own anger.
And I do think sarcasm is a very passive aggressive and childish way of expressing resentment, anger and contempt. It's laziness - letting off steam by lashing out rather than looking inside, seeing what is wrong and expressing it clearly and assertively. I think he probably does want lots of cookies for telling you - again - that he's willing not to contact his mistress, and he's having little sulky temper tantrums now and again to let you know how resentful and deprived he feels. He is an extremely entitled man. It is very very very good that you named it, said it aloud, and called him on it.
Why do you think you shouldn’t have had that conversation?
I actually felt really good about it when it happened, especially because I was totally in control of myself and wasn't angry when I went back to tell him how I felt. Then I typed it out here and still felt good about it. Then I read my full post just before I posted it and I felt like I had just resolved with my IC to focus on me, working on my own healing without worrying about where H is or not... then instead I launched into telling H what's what. it seemed to go against the idea of purposefully letting go of caring whether H was prepared to actually work on our R, or not. He clearly is not, so why waste my breath?
Originally Posted by BluWave
Well I love what you said and I’m glad you said it. Plus, you meant it all, right? I’m glad you are being true to what you feel and think. He needs to see that you are strong, what your position is, and that you are not passively waiting for him to come around and decide to when to reengage with you (when it suits his mood). He is still self serving. You don’t have to accept that.
Truth darts. Hit him hard. I know some people will say continue to DB — detach, validate, GAL, etc — but I think that’s a rough blue print for folks that are spinning and don’t know where to start. I love that you are calling him out on his BS. You are teaching him how to treat you! You can also do that with grace and calm. Atta girl!!!
Oh, I sooooo meant it. It felt so good to say it clearly and calmly too. The grace and calm part... I haven't been so good at that in the past. I was thinking about our fight earlier in the week that was sparked by a similar passive-aggressive, sarcastic comment where I totally lost it, and in doing so lost the ability actually communicate anything.
Maybe this is a Goldilocks thing. I've tried getting angry at this behavior for years... doesn't work. When I first started DBing, I simply ignored it and refused to be baited, and it went away, but the underlying disrespect or resentment or whatever fueled it didn't go away. Now that it is back, I don't feel I can authentically just ignore it in a STFU/ eating my $hit sandwich kind of way. It makes ME too resentful and I don't want to feel like that.
And Blu, I think you're right in that these little disrespectful actions are tied to the gigantic disrespectful actions-- at least in my head-- so by establishing that I won't accept the little ones, it is helps ME at least to feel I won't accept any of it, any more. I'm tired of it. So maybe this middle ground, truth dart and enforcing my boundary by physically walking away, will be the right mix, at least for me.
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
When I got out of the way and left him to be mean to an empty room, that helped ME and it got me into a state where I could start to do things that helped the relationship. I had a LONG time where I was STFU and I think it did achieve some necessary peace and stability and allowed me the space to heal - but part of my healing was to get angry about how I'd been treated and what I had chosen to allow, and also to see the truth. And for me, healing action is about speaking the truth.
You're really an inspiration to me in how you handled this with your H. I imagine you as this calm and strong goddess who glides out of the room with a serene and slightly disappointed look on your face, while your H sputters and froths (Haha in my imagination he's like running around in circles on his hands and knees, like a dog. IDK why that is the imagery for me, but it is!!) I remember when this was happening and thinking my H has some of these same tendencies, though nowhere near as extreme, but that those behaviors were mostly gone. Part of the challenge for me, I think, is that H can be very, very subtle in these little digs. It isn't overt. So when I get angry the narrative turns into me overreacting rather than him choosing to say something in an unkind way.
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
And I do think sarcasm is a very passive aggressive and childish way of expressing resentment, anger and contempt. It's laziness - letting off steam by lashing out rather than looking inside, seeing what is wrong and expressing it clearly and assertively. I think he probably does want lots of cookies for telling you - again - that he's willing not to contact his mistress, and he's having little sulky temper tantrums now and again to let you know how resentful and deprived he feels. He is an extremely entitled man. It is very very very good that you named it, said it aloud, and called him on it.
I agree. Sarcasm is a major tool in his interaction toolbox, with everyone. he can be very very funny, sometimes, but I do think that he uses it at least with me exactly as you say-- letting off steam when he's annoyed. He doesn't see-- or want to see, because then he'd have to change-- that communicating like that is really damaging to the relationship.
He does want cookies. Just that statement he made to me-- I'm not acknowledging he's made a MAJOR LIFE CHANGE-- like, OMG. Seriously? I'm actually glad when he says stuff like that because it helps remind me where his head still is (shall we say stuck very very far up somewhere very very dark).
Anyway. Thank you all for this feedback, it was really helpful to me in thinking about how I calibrate my own behaviors in this current world I'm in. I feel like I can continue to work on my own healing myself and yet set very clear boundaries and use truth darts when appropriate, as long as I can do it with grace and calm, to communicate to him what I will and won't accept.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Maybe this is a Goldilocks thing. I've tried getting angry at this behavior for years... doesn't work. When I first started DBing, I simply ignored it and refused to be baited, and it went away, but the underlying disrespect or resentment or whatever fueled it didn't go away. Now that it is back, I don't feel I can authentically just ignore it in a STFU/ eating my $hit sandwich kind of way. It makes ME too resentful and I don't want to feel like that.
It feels like we've gone through very similar processes, May. I don't think I'm at all ahead of you, and in many ways our situations are extremely different. But I think what we have in common is that we have struggled to respond to a H's sarcasm, contempt, entitlement and resentment in healthy ways.
I do think that STFU and validation are good when all else is failing. But if you are choosing a marriage, and you are choosing to be connection with someone who says they want to be in connection with you, then there's room for more. And that 'more' is assertive communication. I'm not sure that is covered in the 'how to respond right after BD rules' that are so useful to us all at the start. But I do think those rules help us develop self respect, self control, self-soothing mechanisms, boundaries and a willingness to take responsibility. From that ground work (that your H has not done yet) we can speak something like the truth.
For me, I realised a lot of my anger was coming from the fact that I had allowed my H's anger to silence me. Once I decided that I would not be silenced, and he could either leave me, control himself, or hear me respond in an honest way to his childishness and I knew I would be perfectly okay with whatever he chose to do, but the only thing I would be okay with from myself was speaking it out loud, things changed for me.
I don't have a good marriage. I think my H is unhappier in the marriage than I am, because he'd prefer the fawning punch bag he used to have. I am unhappy at times, at other times I see improvement. What is consistent is that I feel better about myself, and feel like I am in a better place to make good decisions from.
I am excited for you, May. I think you stating what is true for you calmly and consistently is going to help you find your best way forward. I hope your H is enough of an adult to do the groundwork so he can find his own truth - but who cares - you are on your way.
