A day at a time

[DejaVu6]

My first H had an EA (possibly a PA but I didn’t ask as I didn’t think it would help me to know at the time) with a mutual friend seven years into our relationship (two years into our marriage). I accidentally found out about it (I had NO idea) and it ended as soon as I confronted him. I remember being very conscious about how I dealt with it. I knew that if I focused on the affair and on making him feel bad about it, we were doomed. Instead, I focused on the reasons why it happened. TBH, I had known that my H and I had been drifting apart and that he was struggling but I was too scared to approach him about it so I just left it and hoped it would fix itself. The affair was a wake up call that I needed to get more serious about it so I did... we did. Our relationship got a heck of a lot better after that and we got a lot closer. I rarely thought about the affair in the years that followed because I understood how it happened and I knew it was not the problem...it was just his misguided solution.

We did eventually divorce but that had nothing to do with the affair. We parted as friends who were going in different directions. That was 20 years ago and he and I are still on the best of terms. He lives about six hours away from me so we don’t see each other often but we do keep in touch and I have nothing but love for him and he says the same about me. So I fully understand what your H meant when he said the A might be the thing that saves your marriage. I hope he is right.

[BluWave]

This is a very interesting and thought provoking conversation :-) I like the different POVs. We all had M issues before our BD! Heck, anyone that is M long enough will have issues to work out whether they split or not. Some issues are more common and some are more severe. I’m not sure we can even categorize them based on severity because our perception of what we as individuals can tolerate varies greatly.

For me, I can tolerate a lot — some drama, probably a SSM (I don’t know for how long), the physical separation (which ultimately is what saved us). What I could not tolerate, or so I thought, was any type of infidelity, and that’s exactly what I got. The full blown PA with my “best friend.” The worst kind! Shaking head. So what we tolerate also changes. I’m not sure other women would have even taken him back after that. I didn’t really think I would either. And here we are still together. But why?

So where am I going wit this? We look for similarities between our sitches because it helps us understand our own sitch better. It also brings us comfort and we feel less alone. However, I think there are as many differences as there are similarities. Not just in the events that occurred but in who we are as people and what matters to us. For you May, he ended the A and has not left the home. So for now, that is enough.

My concern is that he still makes excuses and blame shifts. That prevents any movement in the M. Yes, you guys had a SSM. Well so do millions of other M couples. Him continuing to bring up problems or look to blame you for the SSM shows how far away he is from doing any real work. It’s been 3 years now since the A started? So that is at least 3 years he has made excuses and not done any self work. That timeline and what has now become an engrained adult behavior pattern is very concerning. Please continue to not tolerate this and speak up. It doesn’t have to be good enough for you. You can tell him point blank that you want a partner that is willing to look at his own actions and take responsibility for those and in turn you will continue to do the same.

I think the reason my M is surviving doesn’t have to do with how bad our sitch got or what either of us can tolerate. I think it survives because we are both willing to do the hard work — take responsibility for our mistakes and compromise. Your H is going to have to get there at some point. Only you know how long you can wait.

Blu

[AlisonUK]

That's such an interesting point, Blu. I like to look out for your posts.

I imagine people trying to repair a broken marriage as standing on a see-saw. If one of them steps forward to take some responsibility, but the other doesn't, the whole thing is unbalanced. It can be just as destructive to repair to accept responsibility for too much, as it can be to accept responsibility for too little. And things will definitely wobble a lot as both partners step forwards at different times, in different ways, and to different degrees. When the betrayed spouse steps forward and says some version of 'I want to explore my part in the brokeness that was the context of your infidelity' that's a healthy and good move. When the betrayed spouse says 'I want you to explore in what ways you made it easier for me to be unfaithful' that's a bad move. I guess ideally both partners would have their hands full of their own stuff, and be too busy dealing with that to start heaping stuff on their spouse.

[may22]

haha, I was thinking I'd sleep on Alison, Sage, and IW's posts and respond this morning... got a lot more than I'd bargained for! I think this is such an interesting discussion and I have some thoughts to contribute.

First, I wanted to say to IW... thank you. That means a lot coming from you. Though I'm going to bet that a lot of people (including those who know me IRL) might use the term "stubborn" instead of "strong"... LOL.

Also, I think it was Sage who said several months ago when I was posting a lot about what my H was saying that it was helpful for her to know that perspective, since I do happen to have an H with zero filter who likes to tell me everything he's thinking, as long as I'm willing to listen. I will continue to share here what he says in the hopes it is helpful for others, though I've set up boundaries now around what I am and am not willing to listen to. That has been helpful for me, but I don't have quite as much to share. I think his internal narrative hasn't changed all that much. I'm sure he'll let me know when it does.

Sage, I've thought a lot about the timeline and stretching it out-- you and Yail have both been really helpful to me here-- and it does really help, a lot. The truth is, when I do move up to the 30,000 foot distance, I'm totally okay with where I am right now. I did choose this. My H did end his affair and is still in the home. I still am one thousand percent motivated by ensuring I can provide the best possible environment for my children, and for now that is still us all living under one roof, even with the occasional fights. I'm committed to monitoring this closely as we move forward. And in three or six or twelve months, if things are better-- great. If things are the same or worse-- time to reevaluate my choices.

Alison, I really appreciate you pushing back on the SSM. I think I got defensive (yes, Valeska, you called it) and maybe is one of the reasons why I think I should stay away from these conversations right now, because I don't think my H is in the headspace at this point to really engage on an even basis here, and it makes me angry and defensive. (Yes, I control me, he doesn't make me anything... but this is a WIP.)

I actually do fully agree that in the end, I want to believe that our M is better off because of the affair, and in fact perhaps none of the change we need would have happened without that incredible trauma. I will say that for me, I don't know that I would have emerged from my side of the SSM without it. I have thought about this a lot, and I think if he'd really elevated it so that I understood how much it was affecting him, my probable response would have been OK, I'll fake it til I make it, or pity sex as infrequently as I could get away with while still keeping him satisfied. That is the honest truth. I just never thought of sex as part of my marital duty. And to me, rediscovering my own sexuality has been a huge gift to me, that I don't think would have happened if we had just trudged along the way we were going.

But H also bears some responsibility in the context that led to the SSM. A lot was on me-- I found it very difficult to reconcile motherhood with sexuality, and I know I've posted about that before-- but he also contributed to the situation. Not in the bedroom-- he was a very generous and thoughtful lover-- but outside of the bedroom, he contributed to the dismantling of intimacy between us with little bits of rudeness, or not seeing when I was overwhelmed with parenting and full time work and pitching in on his own to help-- I always had to ask, which turned him into a third child rather than a partner--and not taking time to understand (with me, and I didn't understand this either, really) how to help me to feel desired and desirable, not just a convenient person that can help him scratch an itch. Anyway. There is a lot to this and I refuse to go back to that dynamic with him.

I think in the moment I got angry because-- Blu, I think you have called it-- that he isn't doing all the processing necessary to understand why he had the affair and why he made the choices he did. He didn't need to handle it that way. And yes, maybe the affair ends up being what saves our marriage... but only if we both do the work that it takes to heal and learn from it. He is trying to skip all of that work, and that isn't okay with me. However, I also don't want to lose a grip on my own responsibility for what brought us to this place. I just don't think we're ready to discuss it as a couple. Or at least I'm not ready to talk to him about it until and if he's made some significant movement on his own journey, taking responsibility for his own actions and being truly remorseful for how the choices he made have hurt me.

Yes, the SSM happened. Yes, it was awful, much more awful than I can really appreciate, I think. But he still needs to take responsibility for how he chose to deal with it (or not, as it turns out) and the consequences of those choices. I know earlier on some posters were pushing me a little here, why am I so adamant about addressing the A before we address the SSM? I'm not married (haha) to any particular order, really, but I do want to know that he's over the AP and remorseful before we really engage in any sort of piecing work, and I think addressing the SSM falls into that category. Also, I sense in myself that defensiveness around the SSM and I think it is because he's grasping onto it without taking responsibility for his own actions. I think if we can come to it on a level playing field, both taking responsibility for our own damaging choices, then I can wholly accept my side of the responsibility and the work it will take to fix it. But where he is right now, I think it will push me backwards into defensiveness and blaming him for his part in the SSM too.

I'll comment on a few points and then stop procrastinating work:

Back to your specific situation, I have to say that I think it’s positive that H is viewing his A as a potential marriage saver. It’s very Perel-ian of him and at this point in your sitch he could be right for once. Not as an excuse for his behavior, but in the sense that it is either going to kill the M or make it the best it could ever be.

I will say that I think this is a positive thing he said too even though I think he's also skipping a ton of steps and it made me angry in the moment. The reason I think it is positive is because this is a glimmer of him saying he sees the possibility of falling back in love with me, which he's said in discussions as a possibility but not from the heart. These words in the heat of the moment and the context do make me think (sorry, mindreading) that there may be movement in his getting over AP. Which to me is a prerequisite for any of this other stuff.

Ever since I found out about the A and started researching like mad about recovery, I have wanted us to be Esther Perel's "explorer" couples, who use the A as a catalyst to a far better and stronger M. But LH-- all the experts talk about this, rebuilding a stronger M because of the A, Glass and MWD too. Gottman also is the most explicit about betrayal and infidelity being a slippery slope, ranging from ignoring a bid for attention as a small act of betrayal all the way to cheating. He talks a lot about sexual rejection being a kind of infidelity (Alison, just as you say... though the down side to my H reading Gottman is that he's referred to the SSM on more than one occasion as my "affair." He says he thinks it would have been less hurtful to him to believe that I didn't want him because I was sleeping with someone else, that knowing I didn't have someone else but still was choosing not to sleep with him was somehow a deeper cut).

I rarely thought about the affair in the years that followed because I understood how it happened and I knew it was not the problem...it was just his misguided solution.

That not thinking about it is my holy grail at the moment, and this gives me hope. Although maybe I know too much about it and will need a lot of time to get to the place of not really thinking about it or her. One day.

You and your H need to set some ground rules... even when you fight. Topics, behaviors, tactics, that is completely off the table. Neither of you will be perfect... but when the mistake happens - you go right to "Hey.. we agreed we weren't going to do this in our fights" and your H has every right to do the same.

You can't walk out the door every time you and your H disagrees. You gotta create the tools to work through the disagreements.

You're completely right, of course. It's been hard because I don't want to go back to MC right now, I don't really want to unless we're ready to piece. The last thing I want to do is listen to him be sad about missing AP, and the last time around that was pretty much what he wanted to talk about. I get that this is one of the things that makes not being S harder, in that we wouldn't have the opportunity to have fights like this if we were S. I am not sure we can set groundrules ourselves. I've brought it up a couple of times but I am also very sensitive to him thinking I'm dictating rules (the May is controlling narrative) and so have said it more like, here are some things I'm thinking that would help support me and maybe both of us during this stressful time, what do you think? And he hasn't really engaged or thought of his own ideas for ground rules, said yes, sounds good, he'd think about it and we could talk more, but he hasn't taken the initiative to come back with ideas. So I've just let it lie, for now. I guess I could see about having a joint IC session specifically around communication. Thoughts? I don't want to push this faster than it needs to go. Maybe for now it is about me being able to be calm and assertive but not get angry when things come up.

It’s been 3 years now since the A started? So that is at least 3 years he has made excuses and not done any self work. That timeline and what has now become an engrained adult behavior pattern is very concerning.

I think he created a narrative in his mind three years ago justifying his behavior and he has held onto that like a life preserver ever since. I'm not surprised, honestly, that in all that time he never looked inward for other reasons-- I think that is an incredibly painful process and he isn't going to like what he finds there, because he'll have to finally open his eyes to his behaviors being so, so very far from the person he imagines himself to be. I also think that his AP living so far away made this entire situation stretch out far longer than it would have if she lived here, and also allowed him to compartmentalize far more. Not an excuse by any means, just that I think he was stuck in a certain mindset for that period and now things are changing, perhaps, and he may or may not be able to do his own work. Right now, I think his major work is to get over AP and let go of the fantasy of her. I don't see how anything else really happens until that does.

I do think how he has finally faced the lying is a good sign, though. For months, he would say to me "the lying is the worst part. I hate myself for lying." And I would say... don't want to be a liar? Then don't lie. Easy. But he still had these lies he was holding onto because... (well he says because he was scared, didn't want to let go of the possibility that he'd end up with AP, etc.). And he has said to me now that finally getting all those last lies off his chest and not being a liar any more is very healing, and he told his IC he wouldn't lie again because he doesn't want to go back to being that person. (Steve, I know, words. Only time will tell if he can stop lying. The only good thing to all of this is I'm *finally* good at sniffing out his lies and no longer naively believe everything he says. Trust, but verify.)

Please continue to not tolerate this and speak up. It doesn’t have to be good enough for you. You can tell him point blank that you want a partner that is willing to look at his own actions and take responsibility for those and in turn you will continue to do the same.

I do think I will continue (to the extent I can do it calmly and gracefully) to call him out with truth darts when I see it. The one major thing I learned from our conversation the other day is that they're only effective if we aren't in the context of an argument.

I imagine people trying to repair a broken marriage as standing on a see-saw. If one of them steps forward to take some responsibility, but the other doesn't, the whole thing is unbalanced. It can be just as destructive to repair to accept responsibility for too much, as it can be to accept responsibility for too little. And things will definitely wobble a lot as both partners step forwards at different times, in different ways, and to different degrees.

Yes, I see this so much in my situation. This analogy will really help me, I think, to picture us this way when I'm trying to decide if I'm okay with a little step forward, or edging back.

I will say we had a very positive last couple of days. We're doing the remodel which gives us lots and lots of opportunities for stressful situations and conversations and they've been going well. I can tell he's making an effort to be kinder and control his own frustrations before taking them out on others (me). He has stepped back up in the cleaning department and managed to handle it without any pissy remarks (sad that this is progress, but it is definitely progress over a couple of weeks ago). And he went to the store and bought me some baby cucumber plants, which he knows I really wanted. He said they were instead of flowers. It was thoughtful and sweet and I'm setting aside all the other feelings I have to be happy with my baby cucumber plants. (The snails ate all my last ones up before they had a chance to grow, and I couldn't find more ANYWHERE.)

[AlisonUK]

If you would like a suggestion, May, then I would advise you to do all the work you can in private, without discussion or reporting to your H, on any issues that are yours regarding the SSM. Don't talk to him about it, don't expect his approval, and whether that includes you being in a physical relationship with him again or not is up to you. But I think if you make this a matter of your concern, privately, then a) the changes in your behaviour and attitude to this matter will leak through anyway - he will be able to tell you are taking this seriously and b) you're not engaging in any kind of discussions with you where he's levering a real concern in order to make excuses for the issues he should be working on. I think not speaking about the SSM with him is a good idea, and responding blandly or assertively to his blame-shifting is also a good idea.

I have phrases like 'you know, you could be right,' *drifts away to do something more interesting* when my H starts throwing criticism and blame about.

I am willing to listen if my behaviour is affecting him. And I can tell the difference between a blame and a genuine piece of feedback. Blame is about H not having to do anything, feedback is a request for a change that might involve both of us. 'You're such a slack housekeeper it's no wonder I'm so grumpy in the evenings' is blame and I ignore it. 'Can we talk about setting up a rota for the housework - it really gets me down when I come home to dishes undone' is a request for change, and I engage whole heartedly. You know your H and you will know which of these he's doing very easily.

On this:

He talks a lot about sexual rejection being a kind of infidelity (Alison, just as you say... though the down side to my H reading Gottman is that he's referred to the SSM on more than one occasion as my "affair." He says he thinks it would have been less hurtful to him to believe that I didn't want him because I was sleeping with someone else, that knowing I didn't have someone else but still was choosing not to sleep with him was somehow a deeper cut).

I can tell you from my experience with a H who was the very LD partner and blamed me for his LD in all kinds of cruel ways and then went and aggressively pursued another woman and had an EA that I think probably would have turned into a PA if I had not discovered it, that for me, this was half true. The consistent sexual rejection, his blaming that on me and me not doing enough housework or being too loud or too xx turned what I always felt was an expression of love - one private special thing that was ours and only for each other, no matter what - into a transaction I had to earn through good behaviour, and every time I didn't earn it, it was proof I wasn't good enough.

I don't think like that now, and my thoughts and reaction to his LD and blame are my responsibility, but that is where I was at the time - and it is, as you know, something I still really struggle with. He'd say things like, 'maybe at the weekend if we can get the house nice' then watch me deep-clean the house then deliberately avoid me or pick an argument at bed time, then deny he was doing it. It felt not only like a rejection, but like gas-lighting, like a betrayal, and it had a horrible effect on me. I also dealt with it in extremely immature ways, which is on me.

In the end I'd almost come to the conclusion that it was him, not me. That there was nothing wrong with me and my desires, but he was LD and that's the way he was made and I should work to accept that rather than pursuing, which might have made him feel flawed or deficient in some way. I was moving towards that when I discovered a whole heap of very sexualised text messages to another woman, over 15 years his junior. It certainly did not make it easier. Not at all. Now I am not your H and your H is not me, but I would take what he's saying here with a massive pinch of salt. I don't suggest you argue the point with him, I'd just nod and smile and let it pass you by.

[WMWB]

Reading your thread May I see a lot of similarities in our situation and our Stitch seem to be very similar, that said you do seem pretty grounded right now and from what I am reading you are way ahead in terms of your handle of the situation than I am which is why I have appreciated your options in my own thread.

that he isn't doing all the processing necessary to understand why he had the affair and why he made the choices he did. He didn't need to handle it that way. And yes, maybe the affair ends up being what saves our marriage... but only if we both do the work that it takes to heal and learn from it. He is trying to skip all of that work, and that isn't okay with me. However, I also don't want to lose a grip on my own responsibility for what brought us to this place. I just don't think we're ready to discuss it as a couple. Or at least I'm not ready to talk to him about it until and if he's made some significant movement on his own journey, taking responsibility for his own actions and being truly remorseful for how the choices he made have hurt me.

This is what I am seeing too with my own Stitch and to me it seems we're waiting on our Stitch to get over that hurdle so we can do the real R work that has the potential to build a better M. There is always a possibility that they never get to that place.

Ever since I found out about the A and started researching like mad about recovery, I have wanted us to be Esther Perel's "explorer" couples, who use the A as a catalyst to a far better and stronger M. But LH-- all the experts talk about this, rebuilding a stronger M because of the A, Glass and MWD too.

I have and am doing the exact same but of course this also so much more complex and its difficult to document all the scenarios and feelings that comes with infidelity. I also think reading a lot of that stuff set me up to have certain expectations like expecting instant remorse and willingness to work on the marriage and not a lot of this material covered things like the grieving process our stitch needs to go through to start the process of clearing their minds. One book I found quite balanced was "Not just friends" by Shirley Glass and of course this board. Again its all well and good to educate ourselves on this stuff but its frustrating being unable to put it into practice as our stitch isn't there yet.

[LH19]

I’m not saying you cannot have a stronger marriage after an affair. What I am saying is you cannot if there is no remorse. If there is no remorse then you are dealing with a narcissist/sociopath or they just really don’t give a $hit. Either way you’re screwed. Often the LBS are so fearful and desperate that they try to talk themselves into anything to justify their actions. So let’s throw a bunch a $hit at the wall and see what sticks. I read where George Glass says affairs are great for marriages. It’s like WTF seriously?

Fact my good buddy’s W had an affair 17 years ago and it was swept under the rug. Still haunts him today and he never got over it. He’s ding her when his son turns 18. That’s really what happens when there are affairs. It destroys families.

[WMWB]

I’m not saying you cannot have a stronger marriage after an affair. What I am saying is you cannot if there is no remorse. If there is no remorse then you are dealing with a narcissist/sociopath or they just really don’t give a $hit. Either way you’re screwed. Often the LBS are so fearful and desperate that they try to talk themselves into anything to justify their actions. So let’s throw a bunch a $hit at the wall and see what sticks. I read where George Glass says affairs are great for marriages. It’s like WTF seriously?

Fact my good buddy’s W had an affair 17 years ago and it was swept under the rug. Still haunts him today and he never got over it. He’s ding her when his son turns 18. That’s really what happens when there are affairs. It destroys families.

I agree that there should be a degree of remorse but a lot of the material gives the expectation that it should be instant where as I think many find that it can come over time when the Stitch does the required work. That's where I am, I let my Stitch back without having any idea what I was doing (my fault) and right now I am in a situation where I need to let some time go by to see how things play out. It may well get to the point that I say this isn't enough for me and I decide to move forward by myself.

[LH19]

MW,

I agree and this is what happens when you let them back to easily. Just like my friend and it eventually caught up with him. That’s why I call it a “stay of execution”. You better have a timeframe on her putting in the work. Remember affairs are usually an act of anger and these feelings just don’t subside they have to be addressed.

[Ginger1]

I’m going to be kind of blunt here. Please forgive me in advance.

Your H had a 2 year A! He hid this from you for 2 years! Which involves some pretty serious deceit. And implies a pretty serious lack of morals .

Somebody who is capable of that has serious issues that goes beyond a SSM. He has a lot to overcome before he can build a healthy marriage with you. To be able to fundamentally carry on a 2 year love affair with his wife and young kids at home, he needs to do intensive work and have intensive remorse. And not see this is a good thing in any way.

I’m sorry. I felt like it had to be said.