A day at a time

[IronWill]

Hi may -

I'm glad that technique might be able to help you. It is a work in progress for me, but any deliberate change requires a lot of time to implement, so don't be too hard on yourself if you feel you are occasionally regressing. I fall backwards sometimes. It [censored] but all you have to do is realize you've regressed and it stops the cycle. Then you can take a breath and start again.

I like the idea of writing letters then destroying them as a way of expressing and releasing rage.

When I was in the midst of my time right after BD I was writing furiously in a journal. I was so angry one day that I was pressing the pen so hard into the notebook that the pen broke and spilled ink everywhere. I hurled the book and let out several primal screams. I actually made myself hoarse doing this. Then I cried for half an hour.

Not sure thats the best way to handle things, but its reality and its what happened. I also felt the anger leave immediately.

A couple of notes: i made sure I was far from everyone when I would write in my journal. And I made absolute sure that W saw no evidence of this meltdown.

You will find some "may"-ish way to do this, i am sure.

Take care

[wayfarer]

Dealing with that rage...oh boy. Well I stand by a rage room for anyone reading this who has one that's operational though this mess. But given what you're working with May, I've had to give it some thought. Hiking alone and screaming in to the abyss. I've done that. Not now but in my youth. Running until my lungs feel like they are on fire thinking about all the horrible things that keep me up at night on my bad days. The writing and burning is a great idea, or writing and burying. The writing I think will give you some closure. The finality of destroying it in some fashion I think will help you to create a doorway, or gate, or chapter end for all of that. I think the ability just word vomit all that's been stirring this whole time is going to go a long way for you. The worst part of DBing is keeping so much in for so long to try to save yourself and your marriage. It's so hard to not want to just dump all of that pain, anger, frustration, and grief on to the WAS/WS. That's something I've been working with my IC on as well. Learning what is and isn't appropriate to say when these big feelings come up in waves and I feel like I'm drowning in it. For me it's a little more complex because I was trained to swallow this stuff from a young age. The only way I know how to advocate for myself is to first detach and then walk away with no going back. Making the choice to stay, and H's decision to turn back in to the marriage is a huge exercise for me to break my ingrained behavior. My fear with H turning back in is rooted in part in here.

Which brings us to the fear with leaning in that you asked. With hindsight I think I walked that parallel path the whole time. Early on because I knew he was convinced he was leaving. And he was. Later on because he wasn't sure if he was leaving. He wasn't. Then more recently because I wasn't sure he was staying or going or honestly if I was. Another piece in that was that I've spent so much of my life being loved when it was a convenience that I felt like he was leaning in because he was using me. I felt that his leaning is was only to fill his needs and none of mine, and I'm so, so tired of being that person. I'm so tired of being a security blanket for adults. I've been that my entire life, and as I near 40 I don't want that in any respect, as something that's happening in my life. His leaning in scared me because if it was genuine what did that mean for me? What kind of power in the situation would I have to give up to allow him back in? Is he going to be willing to do the work to get us to the other side of this? Is this going to happen all over again? Am I stupid? Am I naïve? Question after question of what it meant if I leaned back in with him. I still worry. I still hear those questions in my head. I probably will for a very long time. However, now I have the ability to remind myself that this is my choice. I can change my mind at anytime. I'm not a passive part of this relationship. I am not a passive participant in my own life. That falling in love, even if it's falling back in love is inherently risky. That these fears are no different than starting a new relationship or dating an ex again. That I always thought the risk was worth it before, and if love comes at the cost of risk that I'm willing to take that chance. That I have been over and over and over again no matter how much I've been hurt.

[AlisonUK]

May

you don't need to wait for him to be sorry before you can forgive him. Maybe he's waiting for you to understand the SSM and the affect it had on him before he can forgive you. Maybe you're both going to hang about in this spot for ages waiting for someone to go first, and if you carry on looking at it as a transaction, you will both be stuck there forever. He doesn't need to be fully sorry yet, or express it in a way that is meaningful to you yet - but you can still forgive him when you are ready to.

And forgiving him doesn't mean staying married, or being married in any particular way, or that what he did was okay. It just means you forgive him and you're able to move on from where you are now.

But if you want marriage 2.0 then you need to grieve marriage 1 and feel all the feelings you need to about that for as long as you need to feel them. Dumping them on him or waiting for him to soothe them is a distraction.

My experience is this: I had to be really really angry for a long time (you will have noticed this on my thread...!) I needed to be bitter and petty and blame him entirely. It was a stage and I needed to pass through it, and whenever I tried to get my H involved in that stage of my own process, or he tried to get me involved his that stage of his process, we kept each other stuck. The separation worked for us - but maybe for you there is another way. But this is the gate you go through.

Then I worked on understanding. It meant moving past the anger and judgement and actually just understanding - right or wrong - that my H had been lonely, in pain, sad, had lost his own wife and marriage, had wounds from his own childhood, and had acted out in very human ways. It hurt me and it wasn't okay, but I understood it. It stopped me feeling both like a poor put upon victim and also like I had the moral high ground. Relinquishing those comfy positions of un-forgiveness is uncomfortable and necessary. I understood what he had done in this way I think even before he described it to me himself. I think I forgave him, or started to forgive him, before he felt sorry - because he was working on his own anger, and forgiving me (and he was doing that, I think, before I had the understanding of how I had hurt him, or how my own childhood wounds had shown up in the marriage to his detriment). When we get tangled up these days, it's generally over who has the 'right' to feel angry and need to forgive, and those conversations go nowhere. Better to avoid them, for us, and work on being compassionate towards my own anger and compassionate towards the pain that I can understand lay underneath my husband's behaviour. I do hate what he did and I would never tolerate it again. But I understand where it came from. And I do feel compassion for him when he was in that place.

[AlisonUK]

I don't think it has ever been quite as intense as what you describe with your H, but I do agree that the same underlying forces are at work. How much of all this does your H understand? Or is he simply working through this on his own, responding to the boundaries you set up?

At the time we were separated, nothing. I think each of us just thought the other was being entirely unreasonable and crazy (he thought that about me) or that they were being deliberately cruel and with-holding (I thought that about him).

When we get into that cycle now, it is much much less intense and we're a little bit better and just backing off and putting some air into the situation. He needs space, I need connection, and I still get a bit annoyed that we have to do SPACE (what he wants = space to be alone and safe from my feelings) before CONNECTION (what I want - evidence that he cares, that he understands, that he feels empathic towards me).

Sometimes I think - okay, I respect that you can't do connection right now, but why can't you understand that I can't do space right now? But that is the way that it is - that's how boundaries work - when he needs space there's not a thing I can or should do about it other than respect that, and he does make efforts to show empathy these days, which is new, and which I need to work on trusting and accepting.

I also understand something I didn't before - which is that my negative feelings have such a strong affect on him because he really, really loves me, he hates me being unhappy, and when I am unhappy his first thought is that he's done something wrong, and is to blame, and then he gets defensive and treats me as if I am blaming him. That's all on him, and it doesn't matter how many times I am telling him that me seeking closeness is not a criticism of him - it's just how he's made - and underneath the blame and lashing out is a heart that is very tender for me, and very vulnerable. I see that in a way I didn't before, when I could only see the lashing out and think what a monster he was (I still think that sometimes!!)

We have discussed this cycle explicitly. I think he does understand it in the same way as I do, and we are able to talk about it as 'here is this thing that happens' rather than 'here are the ways you let me down or don't do what I need in that moment' - taking the blame out of it is a new thing, and really really helpful.

And it still does happen, and when it does, a lot of the older intense feelings bubble up for me, and that's hard for me and for him. But I used to feel this white-hot rage at how CRUEL he was being, and now I am feeling something more along the lines of 'I wish he could give me what I need right now, and I see that he can't, and I feel awful about that but it isn't forever' and that feels much more bearable with and healthy.

[may22]

IW, WF.... the primal screams. My IC recommended this too. I just CAN'T! I have started saying things aloud in the car when I'm alone to kind of practice. Why this is so difficult for me is a question all to itself (and stems from my FOO, I'm sure).

The worst part of DBing is keeping so much in for so long to try to save yourself and your marriage. It's so hard to not want to just dump all of that pain, anger, frustration, and grief on to the WAS/WS. That's something I've been working with my IC on as well. Learning what is and isn't appropriate to say when these big feelings come up in waves and I feel like I'm drowning in it.

This. Is so true. And the LBS holds this and holds it and holds it while the WAS leaves or waffles or whatever, and it is like this dam straining under the pressure and so, so hard not to let it all go once the WAS starts turning in. But my H is nowhere near ready for that. It pushes him backwards every time, away from me and my too-intense feelings. (Wow, this imagery is making a lot of sense to me.) It also helps me to understand why S is so often helpful-- because I could, for instance, be working on draining that lake without my H around, while he's ideally getting to the place where he could actually handle some of the water that remains and not get swept away in the current. But since that is not the path I've chosen for now, draining that lake is my responsibility and I need to divert it away from the spillway.

After talking it over with my IC, the way I'm thinking about the rage and the sadness is like a toxic layered liquid (the rage is on top of the sadness) that I need to drain away, or maybe like pus that needs to be drained from a wound before it can heal. And I can't even get to any of these next steps until I figure out how to drain it away, and mechanisms for keeping it away once it's been dealt with. Only then can I be ME.

Wayfarer, I thought all night about you saying I'm letting ghosts steal my softness and wide-eyed belief that things always turn out for the best. This hit me hard, really hard. I don't want that. I want some mix of being true to who I am, plus the strength of knowing I'm OK no matter what, that I'm choosing this and can choose differently tomorrow, if I want. "Not being a passive participant in my own life"-- that is terrific and exactly it.

My H always gets on me for being black-and-white and I have never thought I am... but in this scenario I'm seeing it within me. The discomfort I have in holding onto two parallel paths. The feeling, somehow, that strength = walking and staying = being true to my inner hopeful self, and that those two things are at odds... when I don't think they are.

For you Frozen fans... maybe it is all about finding my Frozen 2 Anna.

My experience is this: I had to be really really angry for a long time (you will have noticed this on my thread...!) I needed to be bitter and petty and blame him entirely. It was a stage and I needed to pass through it, and whenever I tried to get my H involved in that stage of my own process, or he tried to get me involved his that stage of his process, we kept each other stuck. The separation worked for us - but maybe for you there is another way. But this is the gate you go through.

Then I worked on understanding. It meant moving past the anger and judgement and actually just understanding - right or wrong - that my H had been lonely, in pain, sad, had lost his own wife and marriage, had wounds from his own childhood, and had acted out in very human ways. It hurt me and it wasn't okay, but I understood it. It stopped me feeling both like a poor put upon victim and also like I had the moral high ground. Relinquishing those comfy positions of un-forgiveness is uncomfortable and necessary.

Alison, you have such a clear way of talking about these processes. I don't know that I'm ready to relinquish the moral high ground just yet ... which is just more evidence that I need to find a way to really work through my anger and pain on my own.

Part of the reason I haven't wanted to S, even though I see the value in many ways, is that I feel a whole new and possibly, for me, overwhelming/unrecoverable wave of pain and betrayal and damage will come from S. Like yet another tidal wave of damage will sweep through and deposit a whole new layer of grief and pain and damage to work through on the other end. And the necessary involvement of the children, adding their fear and pain and confusion to the mix, just seems to me to be too much. If I can deal with this on my own without involving them, I will.

I also understand something I didn't before - which is that my negative feelings have such a strong affect on him because he really, really loves me, he hates me being unhappy, and when I am unhappy his first thought is that he's done something wrong, and is to blame, and then he gets defensive and treats me as if I am blaming him. That's all on him, and it doesn't matter how many times I am telling him that me seeking closeness is not a criticism of him - it's just how he's made - and underneath the blame and lashing out is a heart that is very tender for me, and very vulnerable. I see that in a way I didn't before, when I could only see the lashing out and think what a monster he was (I still think that sometimes!!)

My H has said this to me a number of times throughout all of this. Not the "because I really, really love you"... those words haven't fallen from his lips... but that he can't stand seeing me unhappy, he calls it his "Kryptonite" and it is impossible for him to think or behave rationally when he sees me upset. He'll either jump to the fix-it mode or has that exact same train of thought, that he's done something wrong and gets defensive. (As an aside, this feels like a mommy complex thing, and I don't like it.)

In any case, I'm planning on carving out some time for myself this weekend to dedicate to draining my rage pool. Writing, running, screaming. I kind of want to make a ceramic art piece that represents AP and how I feel about her and then smash it into pieces. Not that I have any means of making a ceramic art piece... wondering if raiding my kids' collection of air-dry clay will do. (Don't think it will have that satisfying smash.) Ha!

And... I realized I have buried my own question by posting so much and would really love some feedback on the loving/tactile behaviors. He's really ramped them up and I am like freezing when he touches me-- not because I don't like it but because I'm totally freaked out about it and what it means and all that. (More context a few posts above if you're interested.) I feel I can gently reinforce the acts of service and small thoughtful actions but am at a loss about the touching. And to the extent I *could* reinforce these behaviors or respond in kind, I think it a positive way it could, possibly, be a virtual cycle where we can at least help each other out in a positive way, even when we are unable to deal with each other when we're feeling the harder feelings. (PT is his LL far beyond everything else.) But I'm also freaked out about scaring away the cat. What do I do?

[wayfarer]

What I tried to let you know before is I did freeze. But I think that got buried too. I was scared. Even when things started to change and he was clear he wanted to come back into the bed and he absolutely had to tell me he loved me. I was freaked out by the things that I wanted for so long. As far as I know there is no easy fix. It's a lot of internal dialog telling yourself it's ok. That this doesn't mean he's staying or he's going. It just means he wants to hold your hand. He wants to text I love you. He wants to come up behind you and wrap his arms around you. Taking the gestures for face value and appreciated them for face value. For context H started with his LL acts of service. And eventually leaned into mine PT. What's happening could be a thaw. Something he had put on ice before, and now he doesn't want it on ice any more. The only thing you can do is lean in and see what happens. You won't spook him if you match his energy, or stay just a half step below. What tends to spook them from what I've seen is not matching the energy and the LBS falling all over themselves for these little lean ins. My worry for you is if you don't push through and keep freezing at his touch he's going to get all in his head about you and the SSM. It's going to be uncomfortable. It's going to feel unnatural. Not like when you first start dating like it's easy. All of it comes with a lot of heavy stuff, but you just kind of have to be in the moment. Not worry about the last or the next and just try to meet him where he's at.

[AlisonUK]

I'd do what is natural and honest, May. I thought it was very strange and unhealthy that you'd pretend to be asleep when he'd initiate sex with you, and that you'd both agree not to have sex but also be having sex. If he initiates touch or sex and you want to reciprocate, then go ahead. If you don't want to, then you can decline gracefully. If you want to say something like 'I'd really like to see where this takes us, but I feel afraid and I am nervous about your expectations' then go ahead, or just process that yourself, don't over think, and in every single moment either say yes or say no, move towards or move away, depending on what is honest for you in that moment.

[may22]

thought it was very strange and unhealthy that you'd pretend to be asleep when he'd initiate sex with you, and that you'd both agree not to have sex but also be having sex. If he initiates touch or sex and you want to reciprocate, then go ahead. If you don't want to, then you can decline gracefully.

I know it sounds crazy. He says he's asleep in the times that he initiates in the middle of the night, that he isn't fully awake when it happens. He is uncomfortable with this and so am I-- he doesn't like not feeling in control. It isn't like he's verbalizing anything... it is more that he touches me and I know I could move it in one direction by responding. If I don't respond by pretending to be asleep, his hand falls away after a very short time and I think it was just like a waking dream and he rolls over. Sometimes, I've waited and he clearly wakes up and continues and then I will either respond if I feel like it or, if I don't, I'll taken his hand and firmly placed it off of my body and that is my way of saying no, not now.

Also, this should show you how infrequently we generally touch... and this was the case during the SSM too... that a touch of his hand on my leg or stomach-- not exactly party town-- equals him initiating. This isn't what I want in my life in the long term, by any means, but it is our starting place. And there is a long history of me FREEZING when this happened, the dread knotting in my stomach, trying to figure out what to say to him to avoid it escalating. I feel awful for both of us even putting myself back in that position mentally. (And since both you and WF are the HD partners, you guys are probably like whaaaat is she even talking about???)

In any case, he has zero recollection of any of this when he wakes up if nothing happens. Zero. So maybe it is avoidance on my part, but simply not responding in these moments feels like my best course of action, sometimes, especially given our history.

The agreeing not to have sex but sometimes doing it feels a little like we're "breaking the rules" and being naughty and having fun together. Our IC has said to both of us individually she thinks adding sex to the mix with everything else going on is not a good idea, so it has a little of the thumbing your nose at the authority figure there. IDK. It doesn't bother me, and we haven't had a situation where I feel like I've hurt his feelings in saying no, yet, or that I feel pressured into saying yes. It has been fun and uncomplicated and like breaks from all the other heavy stuff. I guess in my mind we will get to a place (if we do) where we're piecing, and then we will talk about the SSM and how we want to handle reestablishing physical intimacy between us in a deliberate way, and these little interludes are like mini vacations from real life that don't count.

Regarding the non-sexual touching... I'd like to respond. I want so badly to, but my natural instinct is to freeze right now because it is so unusual, I'm wondering what it means, I'm wondering it I'm opening myself up to be hurt again, all those things run through my head and then I've missed the opportunity to respond naturally in the moment. I'm also scared of spooking him-- like you say, WF. I think keeping a step below his energy is key, and just trying to reciprocate, if I can and want to, and see how that goes.

Wayfarer, I also think accepting that he's doing any of this because he *wants to* feels so unusual to me, because I've totally internalized what he's said to me about not being in love with me, etc. So I'm having a hard time believing he wants this, he must have some reason, which might be "trying" which might be OK but not that he actually feels that way. Is that how you felt?

Thanks, both. I really appreciate your thoughtful responses. This is hard and I feel like I'm working through a LOT this week.

[AlisonUK]

You are working through such a lot, May. And it doesn't all have to be worked through in one go, or this week.

This really jumped out at me from one of your previous posts:

My H has said this to me a number of times throughout all of this. Not the "because I really, really love you"... those words haven't fallen from his lips... but that he can't stand seeing me unhappy, he calls it his "Kryptonite" and it is impossible for him to think or behave rationally when he sees me upset. He'll either jump to the fix-it mode or has that exact same train of thought, that he's done something wrong and gets defensive. (As an aside, this feels like a mommy complex thing, and I don't like it.)

This dynamic I am talking about that went between me and H was set in place LONG before his EA and our really really terrible time, but when he had actually done something that wasn't okay, and I had every right to be angry, he had no ability at all to hear that, to be with me, to comfort me and accept me being angry. This is on him - and I have also wondered if it's a mummy issue (he tells me his mother was critical and cold and often angry and impossible to please - that's his perception of his childhood and his primary relationship with a woman...)

I think I had to just let H feel all that and get out of the way when his feelings about that resulted in some pretty unpleasant behaviour. It is all on him. And it might be one of his flaws and weaknesses that we have to build our marriage around: I've got my own childhood wounds, and we are who we are, and marriage (I hope) can work well even if the two people in it are human and imperfect.

With the freezing around physical touch - maybe that is something that you need to work on privately. I have had that experience myself, even as the HD partner. When H came back and he was initiating more, I really struggled to respond, but felt I couldn't NOT respond, or he'd never ask again, and I felt scared and angry and resentful and a bit of 'who do you think you are?' thrown in. And I blamed him for a lot of those feelings. I did feel sexually broken for a while, and that is was his fault. Now I think I was scared, and not ready to be vulnerable, and he was doing his best but he was scared too, and that resulted in some quite awkward attempts to initiate.

Do you believe your husband is actually asleep when he initiates? I think you're pretending to be asleep so you don't have to say yes or no, and he's pretending to be asleep so he doesn't actually have to initiate. I could be wrong, but that strikes me as two people who are terrified, but who also really want to get close.

[Ginger1]

I am going to ask you a tough question. A really tough question. You don’t have to answer if you don’t want.

Is there any other reason aside from the kids that you are trying to make this work? If you didn’t have kids would you try? Or would you be out that door and never looking back?

Do you love him?