Still taking it a day at a time

[SteveLW]

They would include reading the Shirley Glass and Gottman books, initiating R talks, spending time and energy figuring out an MC who will take our insurance.

may, are these things that you would expect from your H before all of this? I mean did he engage in these kinds of activities previously? If one of you needed to see a specialist, would he do the research to find a specialist that accepted your insurance, or is that something you did? Was he a reader of self-help books prior to all of this?

My point is that, yes you need to have requirements for him to come back and to R and piece. (By the way, I see in your sig you think you are attempting to R again, but there can be no R without piecing!) But you cannot expect him to become someone he isn't. And your requirements have to be realistic. Like expecting that OW is completely out of his head. Yeah.......probably not realistic. I know you'd love for this to be the case. And you may have an idealistic, romantic belief that it is possible. But take it from another man, it probably isn't. Guys have a tough time getting the girl from 5th grade out of their heads, let alone a woman they have had sexual relations with! The key here is that you work through whether or not you are ok with that truth, and if you can live with the idea that when you married this man, this OW was not in his head, but now all this time later she is.

So yes have requirements.

Full transparency. He has no secret accounts, credit cards, social media accounts that you do not have full access to. His phone is unlocked or you know the passcode, and he is willing to hand it over to you immediately anytime you request it. He agrees that you know where he is at all time, including having a phone app that you can monitor is whereabouts.
He gets into IC, supports you being in IC.
You both get into MC.

If that requires making getting ICs and an MC that is covered by insurance, then you need to verbalize to him that you expect him to that that legwork. And put a deadline on it. Communicate the deadline to him. Keep the action you will take if the deadline is not met to yourself.

If he is not agreeable to any of this, or you don't feel 100% comfortable that he is completely committed to this plan and to you (you are his one and only as you say), then YOU need to take action.

Set a deadline. "If this plan is not in full realization by January 31st, the on Feb. 1st I will go file for D!"

May, you are not in R. You have moved from one state of limbo to another. Either get busy Ring and piecing, or get busy filing for D. Unless you are willing to live like this for a long time. You guys are in a cease-fire with no plans for long-term piece. You are South Korea and he is North Korea. That is no state to live in!

[wayfarer]

Yeah, I'm going to split the difference here. I'm sorry. H is not entitled to raging at you over a dirty spoon. He needs to learn to self sooth like a child. There are things that matter and things that don't. A dirty spoon is 100% a thing that doesn't matter. You were within every right to refuse to engage in such a childish tantrum.

That being said. May, you know you could've handled that better. You know you could be showing him more appreciation and inclusion in the MR and the family. But because of where your head is at you're refusing to. Even when he's doing nothing wrong. May you can't keep punishing him forever. You don't have to pick in or out, but I think you need to seriously ask yourself what you're doing here. Here's the deal if you are just trying to survive living in the household together as you separate things and work towards whatever an amicable D would be for you you're behavior is 100% on par and completely acceptable. If you have any desire to try to make this marriage work, I'm sorry to say it but I'm with LH here you need to check your ego.

May he's trying and you are constantly throwing it in his face that it's just not good enough. Honestly what's the difference between him comparing your MR to his relationship with AP and you comparing his actual behavior with your expectations? If what he's doing isn't good enough for you then you need to tell him what is. You need to be explicit. And you can't make him jump through hoops to get there. Also "there" needs to be definitive. While you have every right to have moved the goal post due to the relapse, you can't keep continually moving it. The record thing was super disheartening. No records aren't your things. They are his thing. But he wants you to be a part of his thing and you're just rejecting it because you can. I don't give a d@mn about sneakers. The whole streetwear culture makes no sense to me. But my H wanted me to have a pair of very expensive sneakers, so I accepted them grateful and I do my best to style them appropriately so I can wear them. He wants me to go to these stores. Let me tell you how little I care about Supreme or Yeezies. But it's important to him, and I'm important to him, so he wants me to be a part of it, and I want to be a part of it because he's important to me. H gladly puts up with things I know he has no interest in simply because he wants to be a part of the things that are important to me. If he was this dismissive to you right now in this moment, not a year ago, or 2 years ago, but right now everyone on this board would tell you to pack your things and your girls and run for the hills. You can't just be checked out and rude simply because you were the betrayed. Relationships take two people and it's not fair to hold H to a higher standard than you hold yourself because he made the biggest mistakes.

Next you want AP out of his head and out of the MR. Ok reasonable expectation. Unreasonable is the time line and the way you want it to be. He had a serious relationship with someone else for 2 years. That person is a part of him and his history now. In the same way an old bf of yours would be. The fact is if you want this MR you have to accept that that relationship for him was a real and valid relationship and she doesn't simply disappear from his psyche because you will it so. She will always be there the way any of your exes are there. But that doesn't mean he can't commit. It doesn't mean he isn't willing to do the work. It doesn't mean he isn't trying or wanting to try. You can't have a M 2.0 that is completely devoid of everything it took to get there. My point here is, you can't keep rejecting him, showing him you don't care, showing him no matter what he does isn't good enough and expect any kind of good result. May even if you want a M 2.0 at like 5% while you want out 95% every time you're dismissive and have unreasonable expectations you shut that 5% down a little more. You will close you're own window.

Just to be clear standards and expectations are two very different things. You can stand firm in refusing to be spoken to in that manner over a dirty spoon. Responding to him that you don't care and having an expectation that he should just suck it up and move on is silly. No it's not your job to be the adult at all times, but come on May. If I got upset over something stupid and H or my kids or my BFF said "I don't care" I would've felt cut off a the knees. Humans are imperfect beings. His imperfections, well those are much bigger than most, but he doesn't deserve to be gut punched. You could've asked him why he was so upset over some thing so inconsequential. You could've told him he needs to rewind and start over with an appropriate tone. You could've said I'm not having this conversation if you're going to talk to me like that. But you simply said you don't care.

H messed up. H messed up on another level. This is a huge hurdle to get over my dear. But if you have any desire to get over it you can't keep beating him over the head with it with every single action, inaction, interaction and reaction. Everything H says and does isn't about the A. And that thought process is on you. That's not on him. I know I've brought this up before. You will get over this long after H has decided he's over it. So you can keep punishing him so as long as you feel bad he feels bad. Or you can start working through some of this on your own. May I've said it before and I'll say it again. It is not your job to make H forget about AP. And it's not his job to heal you from your hurt and anger. You have individual work to do.

The last thing I'm going to harp on is forgiveness...again. And I'm sorry for all the harping but this May isn't the May I know. I'm watching your anger eat you up in real time and it hurts my heart.

You haven't forgiven him or AP at all here. Not even in the sense of pity. The longer you hold on to the anger the longer it's going to eat you up inside. It won't just destroy your chances for a M 2.0 it's going to destroy your chances at healthy relationships in the future. Forgiveness doesn't require the transgressor to be 100% remorseful. It's doesn't require the affected person to forgive all either. Forgiveness isn't a zero sum game. It's a step toward happiness and wholeness. Gifts you deserve to give yourself after all of this. The longer you grasp tightly at the what if scenarios, the because of scenarios, and the pain this has cause you, the long you will drag the A on into the future. The longer AP will hang over you. The longer it's going to take you to get down a road where you're working on M 2.0 or your moving happily down that road alone.

No matter what path you choose here, if it's the right one for you I support it. But I can't just sit back and watch you wield your rage like weapon. Rage isn't always fire. It very easily can be ice. You need to be careful here. And maybe do a little self assessing.

[LH19]

Just for the record I wasn't talking about the dirty glass. Totally uncalled for and you could have told him where to stick it.

[SteveLW]

wayfarer just a follow-up. Where do you see him trying?

As an outside observer what this looks like to me is that after this PA, he is trying to go back to MR 1.0. May is wanting MR 2.0. I like your point about her not being explicit. I am guessing that May is afraid to be explicit because it may break this fragile armistice that exists between them. May wants more than what they have. Her H wants things to go back to "normal". If her H doesn't get what he wants, he will use the threat of the OW and/or D, to try to get May to be more the way he wants her to be.

I feel like May is afraid of D, and while dissatisfied with the state of things, would take that over her H cheating and potentially leaving. If she pushes him to give more, then she is afraid he will raise the specter of D again or be pushed back into the arms of the OW.

I have a theory that a lot of times the WAS will use D as a threat to get their LBS to back away. I know I think my W used it during her WW period, and I now doubt if she ever really considered following through. When I confronted her about her EA, she got me to back off by saying "I don't want to be married anymore." This is why I try to get LBSs to drop their fear of D, because that fear can be leveraged by the WAS/WS.

May, at this point what are you more afraid of? D or remaining in your current state forever?

[BluWave]

I love this more angry May. I saw her as submissive and too accommodating to him for so long. Not sure what that says about me tho, because anger was my shield and biggest protector. Wayfarer, you make so many valid points. LH & Steve, you both as well. I’m going to reread this and think on it all. Great discussion.

Blu

[Oceangl]

I just want to add that when I read your post I sense your deep anger and hurt. I don't know about you, but for me, sometimes when he has been nice to some degree to me, I feel anger rise up. It's like I finally felt like it was safe enough to let it surface. I've realized that I still have hurt and anger to deal with, and I have to be careful to acknowledge it and see it so I don't take it out on others. It's so hard.

I would also be careful of expectations. Expectations are tricky things. Needs are better, and can actually be satisfied. I agree he needs to show he is working on himself, but I am not sure dictating which books to read are the correct way. The way you work on yourself and what touches your heart and mind are likely different than his.

[LH19]

wayfarer just a follow-up. Where do you see him trying?

As an outside observer what this looks like to me is that after this PA, he is trying to go back to MR 1.0. May is wanting MR 2.0. I like your point about her not being explicit. I am guessing that May is afraid to be explicit because it may break this fragile armistice that exists between them. May wants more than what they have. Her H wants things to go back to "normal". If her H doesn't get what he wants, he will use the threat of the OW and/or D, to try to get May to be more the way he wants her to be.

I feel like May is afraid of D, and while dissatisfied with the state of things, would take that over her H cheating and potentially leaving. If she pushes him to give more, then she is afraid he will raise the specter of D again or be pushed back into the arms of the OW.

I have a theory that a lot of times the WAS will use D as a threat to get their LBS to back away. I know I think my W used it during her WW period, and I now doubt if she ever really considered following through. When I confronted her about her EA, she got me to back off by saying "I don't want to be married anymore." This is why I try to get LBSs to drop their fear of D, because that fear can be leveraged by the WAS/WS.

May, at this point what are you more afraid of? D or remaining in your current state forever?

Actually Steve I see this situation being a lot like yours. Your W was not remorseful when you caught her the second time. I am pretty sure at that point if you required anything from her or acted like a dick she would have divorced you. You played the long game and ate a lot of $hit sandwiches because you didn't want a divorce and it worked out for you.

My point being is if I am May's husband and she's pursued me for two years trying to get me to end my affair and I end it and think I am trying and she continues to blow up at me I am eventually going to give up. More of the same behavior that I ran from in the first place.

I know it sounds crazy but if I had a two year affair I really had to be angry at her or I am a sociopath.

I will say it again, with out remorse it is very hard to reconcile. Sometimes it takes years for remorse.

[SteveLW]

wayfarer just a follow-up. Where do you see him trying?

As an outside observer what this looks like to me is that after this PA, he is trying to go back to MR 1.0. May is wanting MR 2.0. I like your point about her not being explicit. I am guessing that May is afraid to be explicit because it may break this fragile armistice that exists between them. May wants more than what they have. Her H wants things to go back to "normal". If her H doesn't get what he wants, he will use the threat of the OW and/or D, to try to get May to be more the way he wants her to be.

I feel like May is afraid of D, and while dissatisfied with the state of things, would take that over her H cheating and potentially leaving. If she pushes him to give more, then she is afraid he will raise the specter of D again or be pushed back into the arms of the OW.

I have a theory that a lot of times the WAS will use D as a threat to get their LBS to back away. I know I think my W used it during her WW period, and I now doubt if she ever really considered following through. When I confronted her about her EA, she got me to back off by saying "I don't want to be married anymore." This is why I try to get LBSs to drop their fear of D, because that fear can be leveraged by the WAS/WS.

May, at this point what are you more afraid of? D or remaining in your current state forever?

Actually Steve I see this situation being a lot like yours. Your W was not remorseful when you caught her the second time. I am pretty sure at that point if you required anything from her or acted like a dick she would have divorced you. You played the long game and ate a lot of $hit sandwiches because you didn't want a divorce and it worked out for you.

My point being is if I am May's husband and she's pursued me for two years trying to get me to end my affair and I end it and think I am trying and she continues to blow up at me I am eventually going to give up. More of the same behavior that I ran from in the first place.

I know it sounds crazy but if I had a two year affair I really had to be angry at her or I am a sociopath.

I will say it again, with out remorse it is very hard to reconcile. Sometimes it takes years for remorse.

Actually, I think the big difference is that pretty early on in my sitch I began to embrace the idea of her leaving and us getting a D. Yes, I made it clear that it wasn't what I wanted, but I dropped the fear of it within the first couple of weeks, and started to move forward as if that was the inevitable end. I tell the story all the time about how that first week, when we were meeting her family for Christmas dinner, as we got ready I said "Wow, hard to believe this will be the last time I have Christmas dinner with your family." (Just for background, I have an amazing relationship with her family, there is mutual admiration.) She almost immediately backed down and said "Well this is why I didn't want to say anything before the holidays, I thought after the holidays I might feel differently." The minute I started to embrace the fate, and even move on mentally and emotionally, she started to back away from it.

I also need to correct you. While I probably ate more crap sandwiches than I should have, I certainly would not characterize it as "a lot". One of the things I learned the first time in 2005 was to not accept disrespect. And after my first 2 days of moping and acting defeated, I pulled myself up by my bootstraps and stood up for myself. There were many times I told her I wouldn't put up with her behavior/disrespect and walked away. And I also have been vocal that one of the most empowering moments in my situation was when I consulted with a D attorney. And then started to dictate the terms of what a D settlement would look like to her.

The point I think for May here is that she has to be CLEAR what she requires for Ring and piecing. Allowing him to slink back into MR 1.0, without working on the issues that opened him up to the OW to begin with, is a recipe for future disaster.

I would argue that May is in a situation I was in post EA/sitch 2005. And I made many of the same mistakes then that May is making now that led to EA/sitch 2017.

So yes, remorse on the cheating spouse's part is a must. But another must is the LBS knowing what they want in Ring and piecing, and clearly articulating that to their WAS....and having the backbone to adhere to that.

[Ginger1]

I wrote a whole long post and decided to delete that one. May, I know this is tough.

Basically, you are both back in marriage 1.0. Which is pretty much going to end up with the same result.

I echo wayfarer. He’s trying. But you keep punishing . Marriage 1.0. You let him back with no clear expectations. So he is doing what he thinks he can do. Speak your love language ( acts of service) try to share and connect on his interest and he is getting stonewalled .does he deserve it? Sure, but if you truly want a marriage 2.0, you can’t do that.

And I get the feeling that you want him be fed up and leave so it’s him doing the leaving and you not doing the kicking out. I could be off base, but I get this impression

[LH19]

Actually, I think the big difference is that pretty early on in my sitch I began to embrace the idea of her leaving and us getting a D.

Uuuumm you may want to reread your sitch when you have time. Your memory may be a little clouded (fog) lol.

I also need to correct you. While I probably ate more crap sandwiches than I should have, I certainly would not characterize it as "a lot".

" a lot" is certainly subjective

The point I think for May here is that she has to be CLEAR what she requires for Ring and piecing. Allowing him to slink back into MR 1.0, without working on the issues that opened him up to the OW to begin with, is a recipe for future disaster.

The problem is that shipped has sailed. She let him off the hook too easily.

So yes, remorse on the cheating spouse's part is a must. But another must is the LBS knowing what they want in Ring and piecing, and clearly articulating that to their WAS....and having the backbone to adhere to that.

You see Steve we both agree here lol.