And it occurs to me that you are merely taking the steps laid out before you here, without really understanding fully the "whys" of what you are doing, or being asked to do.
And that is totally normal for the stage that you are in...
When I say that this is a "process" , I mean that you may not understand why LH wants you to do this, or Steve asks you to do that.
When I asked you the questions above, your answer last week will NOT be the same answer that you might give a few months from now.
Rarely in these situations, does an ultimatum work. Typically it will "push" the WAS out the door faster.
Usually with a WAS, nothing that you say or do will have an effect on them, yet everything that you say an do WILL have an effect on them. Make sense ? yeah, probably not.
I see guys come on here, and struggle with doing this or doing that. Trying to talk their way out of something that they acted their way into. Thinking that if they just apologize, then things will be all right, and they can just get back to life as they once knew it.
They think that magically, their situation is somewhat different than all of the rest of them here. Hell, I thought that too.
If I just explain a little harder, or one more apology, or if I just wash the dishes tonight, of take out the trash one more time.....then things will turn around for us...
It doesn't work that way.
I would always ask, what exactly are you apologizing for ?
To truly apologize, one has to be able to fully understand what they are apologizing for...
To what depths have your previous actions cut her??
How sharp were your words ???
How shallow were your actions ??
All of that ^^^^ is for YOU Dawg....
Nobody else gets to participate in the rebuilding of YOU....
No of that should be done for "her" , or the "marriage"....that is for you....
So, take some time, work on you...
Get lost in yourself.
Stop worrying about every little interaction that you have with her. Shine when it's time, heal when there is time, and understand that this thing is "bigger" than you, her , or the marriage right now....
Talk less Act more
She fired you from your job as her husband......treat it that way....
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, a time to reap that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; A time to gain that which is to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; A time of love, and a time of hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
Things have been OK of late, mostly because I have stopped most of my detaching in order to make Xmas as good as possible given the circumstances.
Interesting. So when you say you've stopped detaching, you mean you're communicating with her more versus going dark? And that has resulted in an improvement in your R with her? Then keep doing it. Like Michele says, do what works, stop doing what doesn't work. You can't snap her out of the fog, but you CAN "keep the way home paved and smooth". What does that mean, well it means treat her with kindness and respect even when she doesn't do the same for you. It means let her go and go about your life while leaving the door open to a future with her.
Sometimes you'll hear folks here say to treat the WAS like you would a casual neighbor. You might chat with them but you're not going to share your innermost secrets, or spend hours and hours hanging out with them. You'll make some small talk and then excuse yourself to go do something else that is none of their business.
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There have been a few occasions where she has brought up my being distant, ignoring her, etc. and I've mostly shrugged it off.
Don't shrug anything off. Listen and validate. "I hear you saying you feel I've been distant and ignoring you, I'm sorry I've made you feel this way, this is something I will work on." Giving her time and space doesn't mean shutting her out completely. It's fine to keep lines of communication open, and to be friendly and polite when you do talk. The whole "going dark" thing is really a last resort technique for people who are being abused by their WAS, or people that just cannot let go and detach. It's to save the LBS, not the M.
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She sent a snarky reply about how that doesn't seem to involve being vulnerable (she's big on Brene Brown) or open with her since I've been so distant. I calmly replied that I can't be vulnerable without trust and I can't trust her if she's on dating sites. She replied "OK" and dropped it.
Again, don't turn it into an R talk, just listen and validate. "I hear you saying you don't feel I'm being vulnerable enough, I can understand why you would say that." Note that you're not AGREEING with her, you're merely acknowledging her feelings. Because even if you think her feelings are wrong or misplaced, they ARE her feelings and ALL feelings are valid to the person experiencing them.
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I didn't push it and am not going to until after Xmas where I plan to lay out 2 options - 1. We decide to work on us, I will be open and vulnerable, and she will stop all dating. 2. She won't stop all dating and we will go from this soft separation into a full one where I can move on and fully detach. My guess is it will be option 2.
Sounds like you're trying to control and manipulate to me. These "ultimatums" are a terrible idea. First of all, they never go like the LBS hopes they will. Second of all, the LBS rarely goes through with the threat, so it makes them look even more wimpy and indecisive. You may THINK you are fine with option 2, but I think if you're honest with yourself what you are hoping is that she'll be so afraid of option 2 that she will agree to option 1. But she WILL NOT! She's more likely to go on a tirade and tell you what a controlling, manipulative jerk you are and that she will never ever in a zillion years want to be with you again. So then what do you do? You either do nothing which makes you look powerless, or you push S through yourself which is YOU doing all the work for HER. It's a lose-lose situation for you. What you SHOULD do is.... yeah this will come as no surprise... DETACH! Leave her alone! Give her time and space. Let HER make the decisions about the R. And if she doesn't make any decisions? MORE time and space!
Always remember this- you can't NICE her back.... and you can't MEAN her back.
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Since she's been back though she has told me repeatedly how good I look and how I've lost weight and added muscle. She's liking that, lol. I've also continued to GAL, going to jiu jitsu and getting my butt kicked whenever I can, reading reading reading, and booked a whale watching trip on a zodiac and a deep sea fishing trip for when I'm down at the coast.
Interesting. So when you say you've stopped detaching, you mean you're communicating with her more versus going dark? And that has resulted in an improvement in your R with her? Then keep doing it. Like Michele says, do what works, stop doing what doesn't work. You can't snap her out of the fog, but you CAN "keep the way home paved and smooth". What does that mean, well it means treat her with kindness and respect even when she doesn't do the same for you. It means let her go and go about your life while leaving the door open to a future with her.
Yes, we are communicating more and it has "improved" things as much as it can given the sitch. I do find myself being much more guarded in my communication and deliberate though. I do try and treat her with respect and try to be "impeccable with my words" as much as I can.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Don't shrug anything off. Listen and validate. "I hear you saying you feel I've been distant and ignoring you, I'm sorry I've made you feel this way, this is something I will work on." Giving her time and space doesn't mean shutting her out completely. It's fine to keep lines of communication open, and to be friendly and polite when you do talk.
I feel like I have a hard time distinguishing when to respond and keep lines of communication open vs. just not responding at all. Of course my past default was to respond to everything and I went from that to the opposite side (for me) of not responding or at least not right away.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Sounds like you're trying to control and manipulate to me. These "ultimatums" are a terrible idea. First of all, they never go like the LBS hopes they will. Second of all, the LBS rarely goes through with the threat, so it makes them look even more wimpy and indecisive. You may THINK you are fine with option 2, but I think if you're honest with yourself what you are hoping is that she'll be so afraid of option 2 that she will agree to option 1. But she WILL NOT! She's more likely to go on a tirade and tell you what a controlling, manipulative jerk you are and that she will never ever in a zillion years want to be with you again. So then what do you do? You either do nothing which makes you look powerless, or you push S through yourself which is YOU doing all the work for HER. It's a lose-lose situation for you. What you SHOULD do is.... yeah this will come as no surprise... DETACH! Leave her alone! Give her time and space. Let HER make the decisions about the R. And if she doesn't make any decisions? MORE time and space!
Always remember this- you can't NICE her back.... and you can't MEAN her back. !
I am not thinking of it as an ultimatum or to manipulate her. And reading what others have said and thinking about it more it shouldn't be presented that way and instead more of a change to the current agreement. The reason I need this is for myself. Playing house, having family dinners, still acting as if things were normal, etc. is just setting me up for more hurt. It also makes me feel disrespected when I know what she's doing in her free time. She's wanting the comfort I provide to make it easy for her to get what she wants elsewhere and I am done with that. I am 100% sure she won't give up the dating sites, or even if she did I wouldn't trust it, so I need to move from this current soft separation to one where I can fully detach without getting random texts, requests to fix something, nights spent in bed cuddling, etc. that just serve to make it hurt more when I think about the dating sites. But you are right about manipulating in general though, I definitely have been doing that in different ways, but I see be making this change it will also make it so I can't be as manipulative. Harder to do that if you aren't in constant communication.
And it occurs to me that you are merely taking the steps laid out before you here, without really understanding fully the "whys" of what you are doing, or being asked to do.
And that is totally normal for the stage that you are in...
When I say that this is a "process" , I mean that you may not understand why LH wants you to do this, or Steve asks you to do that.
When I asked you the questions above, your answer last week will NOT be the same answer that you might give a few months from now.
My answers might not be the same from day-to-day or hour-to-hour. Which is why I have such a hard time trusting my thoughts and feelings. They are too volatile. I am slowly getting the "whys" though. I need to stop thinking of these actions as ways to "get her back" and instead as a way to improve my life, which may or may not end up with getting her back at some point down the road.
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Rarely in these situations, does an ultimatum work. Typically it will "push" the WAS out the door faster.
So my question then is how do I let her know that some of the things we previously agreed to (family dinners) are no longer on the table if she's on dating sites?
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If I just explain a little harder, or one more apology, or if I just wash the dishes tonight, of take out the trash one more time.....then things will turn around for us...
I have no desire to apologize. Quite the opposite actually. And when it comes to doing things around the house it is more along the lines of doing less. I wasn't the typical absent husband when it came to housework. I do all the cooking, because I like to cook and also the kids get scared when she tries to cook. I was probably overly involved looking back which is why I started resenting her for not seeing what I was doing. All the usual "nice guy" things. Now I am trying to be aware of what I am doing and why. If it is something that I would want to do anyway like cook, get the coffee ready for the morning, etc. then I still do it. If it something I would've done in the past as a way to show her "look what I did for you!!!" then I don't do it.
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Nobody else gets to participate in the rebuilding of YOU....
No of that should be done for "her" , or the "marriage"....that is for you....
So, take some time, work on you...
Get lost in yourself.
I am (slowly) getting there.
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What is YOUR plan for the holidays ????
I will be at the house with the family from the 24th-26th. My 10 year old is having a hard time with things right now and wanted me to stay at the house all week because it is Christmas week and wants us to be together. That was tough. He's asking if we're getting divorced, why I'm not there, and what's going to happen. So my goal is to be there for my kids and be 100% present with them. I will be kind and respectful to my W with my head high. I want to enjoy things myself as well and maybe live in a dream world for a few days but keeping the reality of the situation in the back of my mind.
So my question then is how do I let her know that some of the things we previously agreed to (family dinners) are no longer on the table if she's on dating sites?
W what we originally agreed to is no longer working for me.
Im glad you noticed that NGS is a huge resentment builder and marriage killer. Of course I read NMMG after my WW left me and I realize it now but I guess better late than never.
You will find a lot of LH19's stuff follows along what Corey Wayne would say on youtube, he has a very agressive take it or leave it approach, but something he says is totally worth putting in your pocket especially regarding NGS and it is "A relationship is about giving, you go there to give and not to see what you get in return"
Good job connecting the NGS and resentment its big.
Cheers, Steve_
T:11 M:10 K: D5, S7 BD: 9/1/20 WW continues to break up and recon with OM. I paid last fees and pushed the D 5/3/2021 Default Dissolution granted 8/5/21. Glad my D was not busted.
I feel like I have a hard time distinguishing when to respond and keep lines of communication open vs. just not responding at all. Of course my past default was to respond to everything and I went from that to the opposite side (for me) of not responding or at least not right away.
The rule of thumb we give is sometimes respond right away, sometimes wait an hour or so, and sometimes (if it's nothing important) don't reply at all. The idea isn't to seem cold and indifferent, but rather, you are just busy living life. Make her wonder what you're up to, not why you are being rude. Make sense? Of course it's different if you're still under the same roof because she probably knows where you are most of the time. So if you're at work she probably knows your phone is right there and that if you don't reply then it's intentional. The rule works better if separated.
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I am not thinking of it as an ultimatum or to manipulate her.
It doesn't matter, what matters is her perception of it, and that is likely how she will perceive it.
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The reason I need this is for myself. Playing house, having family dinners, still acting as if things were normal, etc. is just setting me up for more hurt. It also makes me feel disrespected when I know what she's doing in her free time. She's wanting the comfort I provide to make it easy for her to get what she wants elsewhere and I am done with that. I am 100% sure she won't give up the dating sites, or even if she did I wouldn't trust it, so I need to move from this current soft separation to one where I can fully detach without getting random texts, requests to fix something, nights spent in bed cuddling, etc. that just serve to make it hurt more when I think about the dating sites.
I do understand that, and if you decide you need to separate then by all means do so. I'm a firm believer that separation is a better path to reconciliation then trying to exist under the same roof. The resentment just continues to grow and grow while you continue living together. I mean Steve did it but it's pretty uncommon. But if you have any doubts at all, then wait. Separating now versus 6 months from now really doesn't make a lot of difference in the grand scheme of things.
The rule of thumb we give is sometimes respond right away, sometimes wait an hour or so, and sometimes (if it's nothing important) don't reply at all. The idea isn't to seem cold and indifferent, but rather, you are just busy living life. Make her wonder what you're up to, not why you are being rude. Make sense? Of course it's different if you're still under the same roof because she probably knows where you are most of the time. So if you're at work she probably knows your phone is right there and that if you don't reply then it's intentional. The rule works better if separated.
This is definitely where I have struggled - especially when it is obvious it is intentional. I need to find that happy medium where I actually am detached and don't need to think about if/when I should respond. Right now it feels more manipulative because I am not there yet.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
I do understand that, and if you decide you need to separate then by all means do so. I'm a firm believer that separation is a better path to reconciliation then trying to exist under the same roof. The resentment just continues to grow and grow while you continue living together. I mean Steve did it but it's pretty uncommon. But if you have any doubts at all, then wait. Separating now versus 6 months from now really doesn't make a lot of difference in the grand scheme of things.
My issue is that she says she wants me to show her I can be vulnerable and open with her (whether their is any truth to that is another conversation) which I could attempt if I felt like we were both working on things. As long as she's on dating sites I can't open myself up like she says she wants me too. She's getting her cake and eating it too while I'm over here eating sh!t sandwiches. Since we are already 75% separated (sharing an apartment and taking turns co-parenting) I see it as going to 100% and removing the family stuff we agreed to. That way I can focus more on me without the weekly reminders of how messed up things are or getting lulled back into a sense of false security.
Im glad you noticed that NGS is a huge resentment builder and marriage killer. Of course I read NMMG after my WW left me and I realize it now but I guess better late than never.
You will find a lot of LH19's stuff follows along what Corey Wayne would say on youtube, he has a very agressive take it or leave it approach, but something he says is totally worth putting in your pocket especially regarding NGS and it is "A relationship is about giving, you go there to give and not to see what you get in return"
Good job connecting the NGS and resentment its big.
Cheers, Steve_
The nice guy stuff has been a bitter pill to swallow but damn I wish I had gotten to it sooner. Of course, even if I had chances are I wouldn't put them into action out of fear of rocking the boat. I do now have a better sense of assertiveness and confidence. I don't know if it is real or wishful thinking but either way - fake it 'til you make it!
My issue is that she says she wants me to show her I can be vulnerable and open with her (whether their is any truth to that is another conversation) which I could attempt if I felt like we were both working on things. As long as she's on dating sites I can't open myself up like she says she wants me too. She's getting her cake and eating it too while I'm over here eating sh!t sandwiches. Since we are already 75% separated (sharing an apartment and taking turns co-parenting) I see it as going to 100% and removing the family stuff we agreed to. That way I can focus more on me without the weekly reminders of how messed up things are or getting lulled back into a sense of false security.
Like I said....
She fired you from that job...
She is actively seeking a relationship outside of your marriage...
Why would you be vulnerable to her ?
Aloof , yet available..... was my way through it...
Validate when you can, yet remember that you are NOT her emotional support at the moment.
Let her "miss" you , and feel the ramifications of her decision.
Not to punish her in any way...just because you are too busy in 'you' , to give away any of your power....
