In my business I get to know people's personal situations and I have personal relationships with clients.
In the past 6 weeks I've had two clients whose wife's have cheated on them. In both cases these were rather successful men who were caught off guard. I just got off the phone after hearing another one of these stories. He doesn't have kids with her and he decided it was over. It was easy to give clear direct advice to him. Its a lot easier to see someone else's situation than your own. The feelings and emotions do create a fog - and for me the fog is thick.
Steve85 - I know you're right. I want to sit her down and just say "Are you sure?" And I want to hear "Yes" or "No". But you're right, her actions should speak loud enough for me. There is a part of me that thinks that if I don't ask, the answer is obvious, but if I ask, maybe there is a chance that she says she is questioning. I've read nothing that recommends doing that, everything I've read calls it pursuit and says it will push her farther away than she already is, and I've been replaying in my mind a conversation we had in April, when she told me I wasn't going to stop her this time. I guess this is just a process, and I'm making my messy way through it.
"maybe there is a chance"
This made me think of the classic Dumb and Dumber scene....."so you are saying there is a chance".
Scott, this is your reality. Ws do not have the discussion with the kids, move out, and then suddenly wake up in their place with fleas biting her and go "I made a mistake!" She is like a speeding train, it is going to take a lot of tracks before she comes to a stop and then starts going the other direction. This goes back to a post I made earlier in your thread, the illusion of action. "If I just ask her sure ONE more time."
And I get it! It is such a struggle for LBSs. I struggled with this. "If I say this...." "If I do this...." "If I can get her to see this...." I see you struggle with it in your posting. "The kids are sad, doesn't she see that?" "Her new place is infested with fleas, can't she understand it could be different?" "She seems so unhappy, doesn't she know she could be happier if she came back?" If it were that easy, imagine the difference in advice we could give on this forum. "Hey, newbie, just let your kids know to be really sad around your WAS!" "Hey LBS, get a test tube of fleas, and let them go in the WAS' new place!" "Whenever you are interacting with your WAS, just bring up really sad things to make them sad!"
Unfortunately, none of that works. Many LBSs have done the "are you sure" thing multiple times, only to get crushed by the answer they got every single time. You see, even if she isn't sure, you asking her that will emboldened her to say the opposite. When WASs come back, it has to be their idea. That is why the advice to give them time and space is so important. The opposite of not giving them time and space is to pressure and pursue. WASs cannot come to the conclusion that they made a mistake on their own when the LBSs keeps asking "are you sure?" It turns into the same dynamic that drives the adults nuts when every 5 minutes on a trip the kids ask "are we there yet?"
I do have to give you a lot of credit Scott. When you struggle with this you come here and voice it. We've seen so many LBSs that come back to us after the fact and say "Well, I asked him/her one last time, are you sure? And he/she told me that there was not even a snowball's chance in hell that they will ever come back." And then they get 2x4'd for breaking the rules. At least you are floating it here before acting! So good for you. But believe it or not, you best chance to ever get her back is to let her go.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
LH - The actions you named do not speak of confusion. Does Christmas speak of confusion? She was confiding in me about her job search, talking about the challenges of the new home, took a nap at my house on Christmas day, stayed here with the kids until 4:30p when I needed to ask them to go because I had plans (they were supposed to leave after breakfast). Of course she could have been doing it for the kids, and of course she could have had a weak moment. I think everything is on a spectrum. The weight of evidence is strongly in the divorce, no reconciliation camp. But her reaching out to me the other day to say she was making a scrapbook online of the kids childhood and asking if I wanted her to print me one or the other day when she asked if I needed help getting my son to soccer practice, I don't know - those are interesting moments to. I found out she did get a job offer, and she has not shared that with me -happened a week ago. So most of the signals, but not quite all, point in the direction you laid out. And yes, my emotions are not helping me.
Scott, I 100% understand where you are coming from, my XW sent many of those exact same signals after BD. I kid you not, she also made new scrapbook pages and asked me if I wanted copies just like your W did! I hung a lot of hope on those things, and eventually it was all convincing enough for me to temperature check her. And when I did, it was BD all over again. 0% chance of recon, full steam ahead with finding a place, I need to move on, etc. etc. I touched the hot stove more than once but eventually I got burned enough to quit touching it. Learn from my mistakes! For now your W is done with the M and all of this "playing house" stuff is just classic cake-eating, nothing more. She wants to pursue her new life while also clinging to remnants of the old one. Just stick to your DB'ing and don't let these things confuse you.
Scotty, you've heard it a number of times that the only way to turn things around is time and patience, and most likely seen the number of 2-5 years thrown around. I'm not telling you this story to give false hope, but just to reinforce that message.
I was speaking to my Mum's cousin over xmas and his W left him many years ago when they were in their late 30s, the story sounds like quite similar to yours. She very quickly moved on, perhaps to multiple OMs before they had even D'd. He was devastated, had always lived his life for her and his kids. I don't know to what extent he worked on himself or GAL'd etc, but eventually he moved on and found someone new. It wasn't long after this, and 20 months after BD that his W came back asking for another chance. Her life wasn't as great as she'd imagined it would be and she realised she was happier with him.
He had moved on though and had no interest in her and how she had behaved. He has been happily married to the new lady for 23 years now.
Me: 41 W:42 T: 14 M: 11 S: 6
"What happened happened, and couldn't have happened any other way...because it didn't"
It was easy to give clear direct advice to him. Its a lot easier to see someone else's situation than your own. The feelings and emotions do create a fog - and for me the fog is thick.
YUP. PuppyDogTails would advise looking at your own sitch as if it was in a "Fish bowl". Can you detach enough from your sitch to look at it like one of us would?
I am sure we all went through some level of depression going through our sitch. You may want to conciser seeking professional help.
We all need some type of interactions to deal with loneliness. Right after I moved into my own place, I would go out to dinners alone and interact with the staff. Covid does throw a wrench into thigns like that for you. I still do daily drive through at the coffee shops. I get some interaction with people. It all depends on your risk tolerance. It is your choice on how you view your alone time. These days I have a hard time getting my alone time. Changing ones view of this is key. Can you view your alone time as a positive? Something you look forward to?
One of the biggest challenges is learning to interact with your W different. Behaving different. Since you have children together, you will have many opportunities.
Use this time wisely and become the best version of YOU.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
R2C - I am seeing professional help, that's who told me I was depressed. I'm not sure that I'm ready to view my alone time as a positive yet. The house just feels incredibly empty when no one is there.
OnlyBent - I know you're right logically. I've heard similar stories from a number of men. A close friend of mine's ex came back 30 days before he married his new wife. Another acquaintance's wife came back after a year separation to move back in, then divorced him 6 months later and the day she was moving out changed her mind again and they are doing great. Another acquaintance was living separated in his home for years and this year, something changed and they are as happy as they have ever been. And another acquaintance remarried only to have his ex come back begging and she will not stop and leave him and his new wife alone. It may or may not happen in time. I know she has to walk her journey, and grow personally before anything could possibly change. I know all of this logically and I struggle to accept it because of my emotions and pain. I also struggle because I KNOW logically that she is making a mistake and I believe the outcome is harm to our kids, a permanent divorce, and pain for the people I love and care about the most, including myself. And I may be "happier" as everyone tells me in the long run, but I know this pain will always and forever exist in my heart. I have no doubt about that. Maybe one day I will move on and I'll make peace with this, time will tell.
AS - That's incredible, the whole story. I know, they want to cake eat and feel as much comfort from the marriage until they find the next thing that allows them to let go and move on. The more I let her cake eat the less pain she feels now, the less pain she feels now the easier it will be for her to avoid reflecting, if she doesn't reflect she will have fewer regrets sooner, and that pushes out the time from which she needs to think about what she has done pushing out the time of a possible reconciliation.
Unfortunately, none of that works. Many LBSs have done the "are you sure" thing multiple times, only to get crushed by the answer they got every single time. You see, even if she isn't sure, you asking her that will emboldened her to say the opposite. When WASs come back, it has to be their idea. That is why the advice to give them time and space is so important. The opposite of not giving them time and space is to pressure and pursue. WASs cannot come to the conclusion that they made a mistake on their own when the LBSs keeps asking "are you sure?" It turns into the same dynamic that drives the adults nuts when every 5 minutes on a trip the kids ask "are we there yet?"
I do have to give you a lot of credit Scott. When you struggle with this you come here and voice it. We've seen so many LBSs that come back to us after the fact and say "Well, I asked him/her one last time, are you sure? And he/she told me that there was not even a snowball's chance in hell that they will ever come back." And then they get 2x4'd for breaking the rules. At least you are floating it here before acting! So good for you. But believe it or not, you best chance to ever get her back is to let her go.
1) I dropped off the kids stuff today. I had to make three trips to the car. As I was taking stuff to her porch she was taking stuff in and we saw each other and talked briefly. It took everything that I had in me not to temperature check - literally everything. I'll see her again tomorrow when we refinance our mortgage and then not until Friday the 15th at one of my son's sporting events.
2) Steve85 - Is this the best advice to reconcile and the only chance? "That is why the advice to give them time and space is so important."
2) Steve85 - Is this the best advice to reconcile and the only chance? "That is why the advice to give them time and space is so important."
I am not an expert, MWD is the expert. And she calls it the Last Resort Technique. If you read about the LRT you'll see that your sitch is tailor made for it.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve85 - I've read the LRT. Just read it two weeks ago. I'll reread it again, can't hurt.
LH - Its a roller coaster. I could answer that question every day and the answer would be different. The option to temperature check is an option and as everyone pointed out, its a bad one, don't do it. I hope I can control my emotions enough to avoid doing it.
The scary part for me is that if space and no contact is the best way to go, it is very hard to keep space. We see each other at church once a week. We have mediation every other week. We don't see much of each other at pickup or drop-off, but that's probably another once a week. Probably once a week because the kids forget something. And with sporting events for the kids coming up add another once per week in January and February and then in the spring, we will probably see each other 3-4 times a week on top of all the other stuff.
So best case we probably see each other 2-4 times a week, and those mediation sessions are brutal because it is not a good experience.
Mediation is a killer for me. Fills me with a lot of anxiety and that is only going to get worse. We have two more sessions with just the mediator and then we have the following 2 sessions with both of our attorney's and the mediator. I am absolutely dreading that.
