Steve_Treading Water

[neffer]

Free yourself now man. Be the role model for your kids,

You need to start DB, would you?

Be the healthy parent.

Respect. No fear!

[Traveler]

Hi Steve,

An update. Lot has happened.

You still seem to be doing whatever your emotions dictate--they're a roller coaster--and then posting "After Action" reports. Consider slowing down, giving your rational mind time to kick in, and posting daily to seek advice before acting. Also do one thing to make Steve better each day.

Enough people have told me I am good man that they all can see loves her and she’s a moron.

I don't buy into "Steve=good, Ex-wife=moron". I don't know if you'll post here again, but I bet you'll read this, so sending hugs and good thoughts your way. I hope you keep up the IC!

[Drh2001]

[quote]

The biggest issue standing in your progress, IMHO, is that you won't let go of your W. By that, I mean everything you do and say is linked to getting her back. And it's this very thing that causes you to leap when you should change nothing and hold the line.

You have to cut the rope you have tied to her, in order to save yourself......and hopefully, save your children.

Sandi, I wanted to chime in here and say I agree with this 100%.

One of the issues I had was letting my wife go. In the beginning of the separation she told me she should be allowed to make her own mistakes and fail. I told her why would you want to fail? You're in your 40s. Failure should be something you do in your teens and 20s.

In our entire marriage I took care of the finances. She has zero interest in budgeting and didn't even do the book keeping for her own business. I had to do all of that especially when tax season came round. She also did no maintenance on her car and would only change the oil or top it up when the oil light came on. These things didn't interest her until they became a problem, i.e. the car needed fixing.

So being a typical guy who likes to fix things and believes prevention is better than cure I would remind her to top her car fluids up even when she moved out last month. Because she picks my kids up and drops them off I didn't want to get that phone call that she can't make it because her car broke down due to her negligence. I didn't want to see her struggle with a broken car, but she hated it. She said I was "controlling" but all I was trying to do was take preventative action. I even told her to set alarms on her phone to remind her to check the oil as it leaked and needed topping up once a week.

I also got on her case about giving my daughter medication as she would forget. Again, I'm called controlling. Now I just have to trust that she does it. This particular medication has to be given to my daughter three times a day.

Am I being controlling by reminding her? Or is it better to let her fail because of her negligence.

[Traveler]

Hi Drh2001,

In the beginning of the separation she told me she should be allowed to make her own mistakes and fail.. I would remind her to top her car fluids up even when she moved out last month.. I even told her to set alarms on her phone to remind her to check the oil as it leaked and needed topping up once a week.. She said I was "controlling" but all I was trying to do was take preventative action.

Hi Drh2001,

Easy--you were attempting to control her. At least you were a benevolent dictator, genuinely interested in a good outcome (the car not breaking down, the kids not being picked up late) rather than praise. I let my ex-wife face natural consequences. The first couple of times she was late, I bailed her out. The next few times, the daycare let it slide. Then they charged her $5/minute late. The 15-20 minute tardies stopped and she became the parent always there 10 minutes early instead of 5 minutes late.

I also got on her case about giving my daughter medication as she would forget. Again, I'm called controlling.

With the medical situation, the natural consequences fall on your D. I've been okay presenting as a controlling arse to my ex-wife and invoking doctors, teachers, and CPS over child health issues.

[Drh2001]

Hi Drh2001,

In the beginning of the separation she told me she should be allowed to make her own mistakes and fail.. I would remind her to top her car fluids up even when she moved out last month.. I even told her to set alarms on her phone to remind her to check the oil as it leaked and needed topping up once a week.. She said I was "controlling" but all I was trying to do was take preventative action.

Hi Drh2001,

Easy--you were attempting to control her. At least you were a benevolent dictator, genuinely interested in a good outcome (the car not breaking down, the kids not being picked up late) rather than praise. I let my ex-wife face natural consequences. The first couple of times she was late, I bailed her out. The next few times, the daycare let it slide. Then they charged her $5/minute late. The 15-20 minute tardies stopped and she became the parent always there 10 minutes early instead of 5 minutes late.

I also got on her case about giving my daughter medication as she would forget. Again, I'm called controlling.

With the medical situation, the natural consequences fall on your D. I've been okay presenting as a controlling arse to my ex-wife and invoking doctors, teachers, and CPS over child health issues.

CWarrior,

You're right. I was being benevolent but it was still controlling. I'm also a bit of a helicopter parent. I have some family members who dropped out of high school, got evicted, homeless etc and I was determined I didn't want to be one of those parents who failed their kids. So I put out fires before they got too big - although I missed the wildfire right in front of me with my WW leaving for OM and exposing my kids to her adulterous liaison.

I don't like seeing people fail unnecessarily. I'm not a rescuer but sometimes people have to attend the school of hard knocks to learn - but it's so much easier if they learn first - but not everyone is like that.

[sandi2]

Just as FYI being friends with your ex doesn’t hurt your kids. It hurts you and only you. I personally know couples that are divorced and still good friends and co-parent very well and their kids are happy, adjusted, and most importantly loved.

The definition of friends: a person whom one knows and with whom one has a bond of mutual affection, typically exclusive of sexual or family relations.

JMHO, the word "friends" is carelessly used referring to the relationship the LBS has with the spouse that betrayed them. I think the word is used when actually meaning the couple stopped tearing each other apart whenever they need to discuss child related or business type issues. Often, couples are civilized in their interactions, and some people may interpret that as being friends. It takes time to qualify as friends. Don't confuse a respectful and trusted friendship.......with the action of friend-ly manners........or an upbeat interaction. If you have a friendly personality, does that mean you are automatically friends with everyone? I have been described, IRL, to have a friendly personality, but I assure you I don't consider everyone a friend. I'm just friendly!

In cases of a wayward spouse, there needs to be a space of time after the bomb drop, before becoming chums. Here again, the faithful spouse should consider what it means to be friends. There needs to be some healing in the individual lives, if they expect to be friends in the future. And, what about trust? What if the wayward spouse continues to manipulate? Your ex was once the most important person in your life. However, there was a reason for the breakup. Usually, trust has been violated and there has been betrayal.

I'll share some things I read on this subject.

1. Allow yourself time to grieve. (Don't rush into a friends relationship.)
2. Take baby steps. (The wayward spouse that wanted out of your M, hasn't changed. So, be very cautious embarking on any type of relationship.)
3. Hang out as friends. (I really don't agree with this, and I can explain if asked).
4. Don't become intimate. (Once intimate, it kind of changes the status of friendship....wouldn't you agree?)
5. Build trust. (How are you going to build trust with a liar & cheat?)
6. Focus on the good. ( )

There are so many arguments I could give for this list, but I'll spare. There's one however, I wants to bring up. If you go through the pain of a divorce, why would you want to "hang out" with that person. And as far as doing things "as a family"........why would you believe this would not confuse the children? Imagine if both divorced parents marry other people.......would the new spouses be fine with the divorced couple hanging out together or doing things as "their" family? TV sitcoms may want to present this type of coziness.......but I don't buy it. No way is the new spouse going set back and tell you to go have a good time with your adulterous ex-spouse. Oh, and have a good time with the ex-spouse and the children born from that marriage, while the new spouse babysits any other children. No, there are too many problems with the whole thing.

I say keep the relationship with the ex-spouse civilized, if at all possible. Discuss nothing but the one link between you, which are the children, and have a new life that does not include the ex. I've seen people who could keep their interactions calm, polite, and even have a friendly sound. But they didn't hang out together like buddies. They didn't call to chat, or met up for lunch, of share family activities. Their children weren't confused or living on the edge of hope that every time they saw their parents together it meant maybe they would fall in love again and get back together.

Almost every WW story I've read, she wants to remain friends with LBH. Even at bomb drop, some will say they hope to remain friends. (Yeah, just overlook the fact I've blew apart out M......and we can be pals.) She's the same manipulative and selfish woman and she sees the "friendship" as beneficial to herself. The LBH, in the meantime, thinks maybe the friendship will bring them back together in marriage. Although MWD leans toward the friendship idea, I, respectfully, disagree when the other spouse has been....and is currently wayward. No way, no how!

As you know, the subject of the wayward mindset is not included in her books, nor does she separate WS from WAS, but most of the cases on the board involves waywardness, IMHO. The successful divorce busting stories found on the forum, is actually more of a thank you letter to MWD. We don't have access to their actual threads. I remember Starsky trying to search for their names, b/c he wanted to read the full background story. Couldn't find anything. I'm not suggesting Michele created any of these letters, but I think newcomers want to read the full story of successful DBing, and these folks either didn't use their board names, or they weren't on the board.

Anyway, my point being that when it comes to a wayward spouse situation, you are dealing with a different creature than that of a walk-away spouse. There are several things the LBS can apply in either case (GAL, 180's, work on self improvement, etc) but more than not the case of waywardness requires a tough love approach due to the foundation of disrespect in the wayward. From what I've read, that's the last straw suggested by MWD. But by then it's too late, IMHO. The LBS should apply tough love the minute the bomb drops or contact with a third party is discovered.
Being friends with a wayward just makes no sense to me. I could accept how it might work in a few cases with a wayward husband.........but not when the W is wayward (due to the differences in men & women).

Co-parenting doesn't mean friendship. If you can get along long enough to interact calmly, that should be good enoug for a long, long time..........even more if marriages to new people come along.


P.S. Joseph, thanks for coming to the board to post. I used a quote from your post to get me started here, but I'm not picking on you. I think you've done a great job, but I also know you had to put distance between you and ex-WW due to her antics. (((hugs)))

[JosephS]

Sandi I always appreciate your input and point of view and never would assume you’re picking on me.

The couples that I know that are friends, and they are absolutely friends, their marriages weren’t affected by affairs or wayward spouses. So there is absolutely a point to be made there about not being able to be friends or share secrets etc with a spouse and marriages that are affected by infidelity.

The point I was trying to make, is it doesn’t have to be an all or nothing situation. It doesn’t have to be all love or all hatred. Yes you can be kind or civil even in these situations if you can accept the reality of what is going on and who your spouses are. I personally don’t tend to see Steve’s spouse as a wayward spouse. I personally think she a narcissist on a level most haven’t seen. Her behavior isn’t new, her cheating isn’t new it seems to be who she is as a person. A significant character flaw.

But your point is still very valid. Being friends was a poor choice of words if you look at it that deeply. Being civil and co-parenting harmoniously while continuing to have self respect would have definitely been a better choice of words.

I just don’t want to see anyone use children as a threat or away to control the situation. For me, the pain of what my W did to me is something i can separate. Just because someone is a terrible spouse doesn’t mean they’re a terrible parent. I wish I could do 50/50 custody. I wish my kids did have both parents even if their parents aren’t living together.

I personally believe if Steve could accept her for what she is, and not hold onto the pain, not think that maybe she’ll change and come back, (again I don’t think she is a wayward, she’s always been incapable of monogamy) he would be the rock he needs to be for his kids. Because right now he isn’t. Right now his kids need him and he is still too focused on niceing and manipulating his W family in an attempt to win back his W. My hope, and maybe I’m wrong and way off base, is if he can start to see her as less than a W but more than absolutely nothing he can start to let go of the pain of his marriage and heal and be the better father his kids need. Because he’s too focused on one extreme or the next. Again just my opinion and I don’t ever want to give out bad advice that’s counter productive.

[Steve_]

I have had a tough time getting it through my head, ive blamed my WW for playing mind games to manipulate me but honestly its my fault for allowing it. After talking with IC its a big lack of self-respect that I have and a huge fear that i'll lose her if I dont nice her back. Thus far nicing her has got me "friend zoned" so to add to the stack of times its been said "nicing her back doesnt work". Turns out of course shes told me more lies and OM actually broke up with her yesterday, Of course she lied and told me they arent going to see each other because they agreed, no lol its cause OM messaged me and told me he is done, But she doesnt know that. I for a moment last week wanted to believe her sob story that she learned her lesson, that she admitted she messed up. Then I got my hopes wayyyyyy up and yep they came crashing right back down.

At this point in my life I am just so overwhelmed with the amount of crap ive endured the last few months, and allowed myself to be affected by. My focus now is not letting things get to me ive done a terrible job.

[97Hope]

I have had a tough time getting it through my head, ive blamed my WW for playing mind games to manipulate me but honestly its my fault for allowing it. After talking with IC its a big lack of self-respect that I have and a huge fear that i'll lose her if I dont nice her back. Thus far nicing her has got me "friend zoned" so to add to the stack of times its been said "nicing her back doesnt work".

As hard as it is - you would do better accepting the fact that you lost her even before BD.

-----------------------

I see you guys talk a lot about being "friend-zoned" - I don't treat my friends like this. I'm guessing most of you don't either.

I know plenty of people who have "friends" that they call up when they are lonely, want sex or need the toiled plunged etc..but not any other time.

A friend cares about your life. A friend cares about your feelings. A friend considers you when something great happens, not just when the toilet is clogged. A friend won't harm you. Yes, sometimes words from a friend hurt (hey, I've noticed you are drunk when I call) but NEVER harm. Friends hold each other in high regard and treat each other with respect.

-------------------------------

Steve - you allowed it. But the blame for treating another human rests on your WW. Good that you are accepting your part in this. So going forward, choose how you are treated. Don't tell her "If you swing at me again, I'm going to step out of the way!" Just step out of the way!

Part of the process is seeing WAS/WS for who they are today. That's what makes it easier for us to be manipulated in the beginning. We aren't dealing with the spouse we knew and loved and trusted.

We are dealing with people who are willing to destroy families, spend tens of thousands of dollars, risk the loss of friends, reputation etc. - all to fill the void in their lives. All to "feel" better. Caring nothing for the devastation they leave in the wake.

Recognize who they are today, accept it and get the hell out of their way.

[Traveler]

My focus now is not letting things get to me

Hi Steve, I want to share something I learned. Success isn't touching a stove and "not get burned" or "not let it get to you"--that's a trap trauma survivors fall into, one I've fallen into, a subconscious desire to relive a trauma with a better outcome. Success is on a different path--learning not to touch the stove.

Breakups cause pain. Breakups don't have to cause suffering.

With those caveats stated, I support your goal of being more resilient.

PS - OM betrayed you. I wouldn't believe anything that comes out of his mouth, either.